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In defense of Bernal he had Covid after the Giro, fell on the Vuelta a Burgos, a terrible run up to the Vuelta. I'm not surprised he has underperformed.

We can't know how long it took landa to recover from that crash.

And also this is the Vuelta Roglic had the least amount of racedays on his legs.
IMHO he shouldn't be obsessed with winning all GTs he enters anyway. As that would likely take a toll. Current strategy of one GT win per year should do just fine for now. Still i feel that Bernal likely took the preparation for this Vuelta edition seriously. I doubt he came racing in a bad shape or not prepared well.

As for Landa i don't know what exactly is happening. All in all i expected more in this first half of the race. Especially considering the strength of his team.
 
Where did I say anything about a weak field in my post?
All I said is that the main difference between Roglic and most other riders is that he's pretty much in the same good shape all year. I believe his high is not as high as Pogacar's, but he doesn't tend to get any real lows either.
It wasn't meant as an argument either, more of an observation, but if you want to see it as an argument, okay.
I agree with your observation, that Roglič preformance curve throughout the year is flatter that Pogačar's (ant many other riders') as I pointed that out myself more than once as well. However that itself can't explain his success in la Vuelta (which you were trying to do). If flat performance curve is the reason for his Vuelta success then it is only logical that Vuelta has weaker field than Tour, right? That's why I thought you were implying Vuelta had a weaker field. Which I think it does BTW to a certain extent... To the same extent that Roglič's performance curve is not completely flat either.
 
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Pogačar is a relatively new variable and lets give Roglič a fair chance to adapt first. Before we make any final conclusions.

In a way it is a good thing Pogačar emerged. Sure, Roglič would likely have a GT win or two more in his trophy cabinet. But he would likely still be downplayed considerably as being a robot, fading in third week, non charismatic, bad TT in third week and some would continue to claim he is somewhere in between a true cycling champion generation type of winner. Basically a ski jumper.

Anyway, now he is competing against Eddy Merckx and he knows what he has to do to set things straight. On a golden bike. A bit tacky but still.

As for the charisma. On Tokyo Olympics there was a woman from Japan. Se knew who Prevc is and she cheered for Roglič. Slovenian flag from Amazon, apparel from Rogličes store ... There was a man from Japan who watched TDF 2020 and said OK Primož, next year the Olympics are in my country and you will come here and will win a gold medal. Point being there is no way a non charismatic person can warm up the sun in Japan.
 
Obviously I agreed that Roglic is in a good form all year wrong. But you mentioned that others may be significantly below their best at the Vuelta which is not the case looking at Mas and Lopez this year or Carapaz last year. Climbing times at recent Vueltas also confirm high level.
I think both is true; the level in general isn't bad. Despite whatever they are saying Movistar continue to either put their priority on the Vuelta or their training plans throughout the year are just still made to top it in the Vuelta, and some guys are in pretty good form. However, there are also many GC riders, and more than for Giro and especially Tour, who don't have this as a priority during the year. In fact, almost nobody from the top guys does. It's very often second choice. But I didn't mean to diminish Roglic's achievements, fact is the Vuelta isn't the top target of the season for him either, and then, when others tend do drop off significantly, he doesn't.
I stand by my assessment that his best isn't as good as Pogacar's best; however, time may prove me wrong.
 
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Roglic
I think both is true; the level in general isn't bad. Despite whatever they are saying Movistar continue to either put their priority on the Vuelta or their training plans throughout the year are just still made to top it in the Vuelta, and some guys are in pretty good form. However, there are also many GC riders, and more than for Giro and especially Tour, who don't have this as a priority during the year. In fact, almost nobody from the top guys does. It's very often second choice. But I didn't mean to diminish Roglic's achievements, fact is the Vuelta isn't the top target of the season for him either, and then, when others tend do drop off significantly, he doesn't.
I stand by my assessment that his best isn't as good as Pogacar's best; however, time may prove me wrong.
Roglic wiped the floor with Pogacar in Pais Vasco. Roglic best is better than pogacar best on low altitude short climbs. Pogacar best is better over 3 week
 
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Roglic

Roglic wiped the floor with Pogacar in Pais Vasco. Roglic best is better than pogacar best on low altitude short climbs. Pogacar best is better over 3 week
I don't know. He didn't really wipe the floor with Pogacar in Basque Country, he was better in the time trial, yes; Pogacar probably isn't as good a time trialer as him on normal days, and in addition I would see their performances as a sign that my thesis is correct: they both weren't doing their top target race there.

Pogacar has won LBL this year and looked a bit stronger to me than Roglic last year, when Roglic won mostly due to Alaphilippe's behaviour. So I don't think Pogacar is only better over three weeks.
 
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I don't know. He didn't really wipe the floor with Pogacar in Basque Country, he was better in the time trial, yes; Pogacar probably isn't as good a time trialer as him on normal days, and in addition I would see their performances as a sign that my thesis is correct: they both weren't doing their top target race there.

Pogacar has won LBL this year and looked a bit stronger to me than Roglic last year, when Roglic won mostly due to Alaphilippe's behaviour. So I don't think Pogacar is only better over three weeks.
Stage 6 which Gaudu won, pogacar got Roglstomped.

But maybe you're right. Liege point is a good one
 
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Roglic will crack and Mas will win the vuelta. Too many crash by Roglic. He is like a bull in a China shop.

From CN :
Primož Roglič (Jumbo-Visma) suffered his second crash in the space of three days at the Vuelta a España, with Adam Yates (Ineos Grenadiers) hitting the deck in the same incident on stage 12.


The crash occurred on a climb, the Alto de San Jerónimo with 55km go. However, it happened on a flat section in the middle of the category-3 ascent, as the peloton rounded a slight left-hand bend.

It appeared that a rider towards the front of the peloton slipped out, sending several others sliding out and off the right-hand side of the road.

Roglic was one of the riders who found themselves thrown into the roadside dust, along with a couple of his teammates. "


So how is this his fault? He was positioned optimally around 12th and someone goes down in front and brings down many riders.

But for some reason you hate him......
 
From CN :
Primož Roglič (Jumbo-Visma) suffered his second crash in the space of three days at the Vuelta a España, with Adam Yates (Ineos Grenadiers) hitting the deck in the same incident on stage 12.


The crash occurred on a climb, the Alto de San Jerónimo with 55km go. However, it happened on a flat section in the middle of the category-3 ascent, as the peloton rounded a slight left-hand bend.

It appeared that a rider towards the front of the peloton slipped out, sending several others sliding out and off the right-hand side of the road.

Roglic was one of the riders who found themselves thrown into the roadside dust, along with a couple of his teammates. "


So how is this his fault? He was positioned optimally around 12th and someone goes down in front and brings down many riders.

But for some reason you hate him......
Some crashes are bad luck, as today. But If you crash as many times as Roglic does, it isn't only bad luck.
 
Roglic will crack and Mas will win the vuelta. Too many crash by Roglic. He is like a bull in a China shop.
While Roglic could crack or crash; Mas is already riding the form of his young career. It wouldn't be a loss for him to merely get on the podium.
As for Roglic's crashes: one was an overcook on a corner in a legitimate effort to gain big time. Today he was up front and the crash happened around him. At the Tour, Sonny Colbrelli mugged him. I can see where you think he has "Too many.." but if you're racing you'll be in that position. I think every contender in the top ten has been on the deck this Vuelta but most have not been serious which is an improvement. The race, like the Giro is notorious for moto interference and dicey courses but it looks like they have improved warning signs and even posted cops at dangerous points in the race for emphasis.
 
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While Roglic could crack or crash; Mas is already riding the form of his young career. It wouldn't be a loss for him to merely get on the podium.
As for Roglic's crashes: one was an overcook on a corner in a legitimate effort to gain big time. Today he was up front and the crash happened around him. At the Tour, Sonny Colbrelli mugged him. I can see where you think he has "Too many.." but if you're racing you'll be in that position. I think every contender in the top ten has been on the deck this Vuelta but most have not been serious which is an improvement. The race, like the Giro is notorious for moto interference and dicey courses but it looks like they have improved warning signs and even posted cops at dangerous points in the race for emphasis.
And the three, or was it two, crashes in a single stage at PN this year? He is no Thomas, but still pretty unlucky.
 
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