Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

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CyclistAbi

May 29, 2019
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cellardoor said:
As much as I like Roglic, Contador and Froome's palmares are out of reach for someone of his age and especially with someone like Pogacar being around.
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If you have a couple years more of racing ahead and already have 58 wins, Olympic medal, WC medal, GT hat-trick, monument, prestigious wins on stages, one day and week races. No way is that out of reach.
 
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Gargamel35

Sep 5, 2020
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I think he should focus on Giro - Vuelta double next year. Tour has become Pogačar's playground with 100% UAE team support and it will stay that way as long as he races there.
But Jumbo Visma will not let that happen. The will go on Tour every year with mediocre support for Roglič (and rest for Wout) and Roglič will have to fight uphill as hell and settle for Vuelta at the end.

I can't say i'm happy with that. I know Wout is great but he's no TdF (or any other GT) winner. And if JV is really serious about winning it, they should go 100% in with the best (including Wout). Even then, they fight UAE with alien Pogačar and Ineos bots.
 
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CyclistAbi

May 29, 2019
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As for quantity vs quality.

On TDF 2020 Pogačar did beat Roglič and that should count as a strong win with Tour aura invovled. On TDF 2021 due to safety fiasco the field was not as strong hence i feel that TDF 2021 should count much less. Not more then a strong Giro or Vuelta win.

As for Roglič and Vuelta wins. I would say as his main rivals were Pogačar, Carapaz and Bernal. They should all count as solid wins. Olympic gold in ITT. Well that changed everything.

Next thing Roglič should try to do is hence return the favour to Pogačar on the Tour. It would be silly to try to avoid that. And for example to do Giro-Vuelta double instead.
 
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roundabout

roundabout

Jun 7, 2010
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bNator said:
This has becom some kind of an axiom. Which is weird because the number of times Pogačar beat Roglič in stage races amounts to a grand total of 1. I mean sure it's possible Pogačar is better but as it is currently, the actual evidence is pretty inconclusive IMO.
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And the number of times Roglic beat Pogacar is 3. And in 2 of them Pogacar was U21.

What is weird is to think that there is less progression possible in a rider who is 9 years younger and is finishing his 3rd WT year.
 
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Krzysztof_O

Jul 7, 2013
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CyclistAbi said:
On TDF 2020 Pogačar did beat Roglič and that should count as a strong win with Tour aura invovled. On TDF 2021 due to safety fiasco the field was not as strong hence i feel that TDF 2021 should count much less. Not more then a strong Giro or Vuelta win.
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What Pogacar did in the Alps was ridiculous though. In 20 km he put almost 3 and half minutes into his all biggest rivals. Let's not pretend that Carapaz, Vingegaard or Mas are poor riders, they just had no energy to compete with Pog in those terrible conditions (despite them Pog still beat Romme and Romme+Colombiere combo record). Pefromance of the year for sure.
 
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Bolder

Jun 25, 2015
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topcat said:
Would you rate Pog's 2 tours + Lbl higher than Rog's 3 vueltas + Lbl?
Would you rate Pog's bronze in orr higher than Rog's gold in ott?
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I would rate ANY multiple TdF wins above any combination of multiple Giros or Vueltas, taking away monuments/classics. The plain truth is that -- like it or not -- the Tour is the main goal of every team unless you're a pro-conti invitee to the Giro or Vuelta. That's what sponsors want and what the general public understands.

Teams bring their A Teams and their A Game to the Tour. If you can win that, you're on top of the cycling world. Again, like it or not -- Most of us probably get as much or more enjoyment from the Giro/Vuelta (or even mid-level week-long races like tour of the Alps...),.

Regarding the Olympics, yes and no. cycling is still a fringe Olympic sport, or at least B Level, so while a gold is huge for someone like Carapaz or Roglic in their countries, to me it's on the same level as a big Classic but not a monument. Others may disagree.

Any cyclist who wins a GT and a Monument is a special talent. So they're even in that regard. But Pog's TdF wins elevate him over Roglic in my mind.
 
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CyclistAbi

May 29, 2019
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Krzysztof_O said:
What Pogacar did in the Alps was ridiculous though. In 20 km he put almost 3 and half minutes into his all biggest rivals. Let's not pretend that Carapaz, Vingegaard or Mas are poor riders, they just had no energy to compete with Pog in those terrible conditions (despite them Pog still beat Romme and Romme+Colombiere combo record). Pefromance of the year for sure.
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It was a strong performance still the filed was not the strongest. Lets not forget Carapaz and Vingegaard came to this race as domestiques. Both losing their leaders. I can't rate TDF 2021 win higher then Vuelta 2021 win. It's around the same for me. Giro 2021 win was solid to.
 
BlueRoads

BlueRoads

Jan 4, 2020
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I am not familiar with all the numbers and watts, but from what I read and saw, I think Pogacar now has a few out-of -this-world performances, at least Peyresourde, PdBF tt, this year's Grand Bornard (and I think also one stage in the Vuelta '19, although I'm so bad at remembering these things, I couldn't name the stage.
Roglic is more consistent throughout the year, but I don't think he has similar alien performances so far?
Also, the Tour is just above any Vuelta or Giro, even if the top competitors, in a certain year, might differ, it's the level of the whole field which makes the Tour harder and that's why Pogacar's GT wins are more impressive than three Vueltas, especially since they weren't won through his team (which can be argued for a few Sky wins).
Pogacar looked more convincing in both LBLs to me.
A factor to consider might always be the weather, I'm sure hot is to Roglic's advantage, cold to Pogacar's. (Doesn't mean they can't perform in not-advantageous situations, just that then one might have an additional certain edge.)

I don't want to do this constant downgrading, because Roglic is such an impressive cyclist. It's just that I think his fans sometimes tend to get carried away a bit. For some reasons Pogacar just doesn't have the same number of fans around here, but that's not due to Roglic's superior achievements.
 
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Gargamel35

Sep 5, 2020
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I think Pogačar's peak is higher then any other rider alive. If he comes prepared 100% and with even better UAE team that is there ONLY to support him, you can't really beat him in 3 weeks race. God knows i want Roglič to do it, but he's going against a young generational talent with teams 100% support for one event in the whole year. Roglič is second best GT rider of the world if he comes 100% prepared. But he needs to fight for 100% team support which is so sad. He needs to watch great JV riders do their own thing on TdF for themselves. And that takes away focus and energy. And you need them to be 100% if you want to fight Pogačar.

I believe Roglič can head to head beat any GT rider in any GT race. He's that good. But Pogačar? I'll scream my heart out if he does, but i wouldn't put my money on it.
Having said that, i don't want Roglič to win TdF without Pogačar being there. Winning TdF in front of Pog would be the ultimate ex ski jumpers achievement that would hammer down his presence between legends of this sport.
 
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SafeBet

SafeBet

Sep 2, 2011
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topcat said:
Would you rate Pog's 2 tours + Lbl higher than Rog's 3 vueltas + Lbl?
Would you rate Pog's bronze in orr higher than Rog's gold in ott?
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No to the first question. TIf they had the same number of big wins I would give Pog the edge but it's not the case.

Second question: both are kind of minor achievements, compared to their big wins. I would rate Rogla's gold higher, but only in case of a tie break.
 
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CyclistAbi

May 29, 2019
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Quality assessment is by its nature subjective. Still some common agreement can usually be reached.

As for Giro 2021:

Q: Did you know Bernal won a GT going against mid field?
A: Where there Slovenians involved?
Q: No?
A: Doh. Sherlock.

As for Tour 2021:

Q: Did you know Pogačar won a GT going against mid field?
A: Doh.
Q: But you do know that it was carnage?
A: Sherlock.

As for Vuelta 2021.

Q: Did you know Roglič won a GT going against mid field?
A: Doh. Sherlock.

Point being if you currently want to be rated above "solid performance" you need to beat Roglič or Pogačar in a direct fight.
 
L

Luthor

Dec 9, 2019
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Gargamel35 said:
I think he should focus on Giro - Vuelta double next year. Tour has become Pogačar's playground with 100% UAE team support and it will stay that way as long as he races there.
But Jumbo Visma will not let that happen. The will go on Tour every year with mediocre support for Roglič (and rest for Wout) and Roglič will have to fight uphill as hell and settle for Vuelta at the end.

I can't say i'm happy with that. I know Wout is great but he's no TdF (or any other GT) winner. And if JV is really serious about winning it, they should go 100% in with the best (including Wout). Even then, they fight UAE with alien Pogačar and Ineos bots.
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I understand what you're saying but it's clearly TJV and Roglic have unfinished business at the Tour. At the same time Wout is one of the biggest stars in cycling and very important for the sponsors. Rog vs Pog is the most anticipated duel in 2022, it's bigger than WvA vs MVDP after Wout started to lose his punch. I hope Wout doesn't go for green next year but we will see.
Giro-Vuelta is great but I'm not sure it does that much to Roglic's legacy. An epic battle with Pog at the Tour will be more remembered than an snoozefest Giro like Bernal's win. Someone mentioned Senna in this thread, Senna is remembered for his epic battles with Prost, Piquet and he will always be an ATG despite having only 3 Championships. Lemond-Fignon are both mostly remembered for that epic fight in 89 even though both won TdF multiple times.

I think Roglic is gonna go for Giro-Vuelta in 3 years from now, when probably there will be too many contenders and he won't be at his peak anymore.

I think it would be smarter for Pog to go for Giro-Vuelta than Rog. Getting that record all-time for the youngest winner of all 3 GTs is huge and it's more impressive if he does it next year not in 2023-2024. Pog has nothing to prove, he already beat Roglic and was dominant this year. It would also be probably a dream scenario for Slovenians with all 3 GTs won and Rog getting his TdF win. But knowing UAE he will still go for Tour, no way they are giving him so much money only to not go for TdF.
 
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