Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Krzysztof_O]

I mean following that pre-Tour Jumbo logic, he really might as well join UAE & team-up with Pog (as Krzysztof hilariously suggested) considering how ominously invincible Vingegaard now looks.

Vinge is not invincible though. His team has made the decisive difference this year so far when WVA neutralized Pog's attack on the cobbles and Roglic made Pog work hard on Galibier.
Switch their teams and Pog has the race in the bag after the cobbles action with WVA.

 

[bill1109]

That was likely just an example of adrenaline running high after a stage, resulting in stupid things being sad.

Just another example of stupid things said by Jakobsen ..but sorry ..silly me.. he gets a free pass

 

[bill1109]

It's clear the WVA is the strongest rider in this race...but remember this when it's said after Vinegar or Pog wins or one of the older analysts says "the strongest rider always wins". Sorry. Wva is strongest. If you don't believer that you haven't been watching. Old racer analysts calling it stupid racing only wish they could have done what he is doing.

 

[RedheadDane]

Just another example of stupid things said by Jakobsen ..but sorry ..silly me.. he gets a free pass

Not like he goes around saying stupid things left, right, and centre. The comment about Groenewegen's win - which he apologised for - was kinda understandable.

 

[acm]

Of course he knew there would be a point where Jonas would beat him. We have all seen how good Jonas was last year. Roglic has also said about Tadej before 2020 that he would go on and do great things in grand tours. He had just hoped they would wait until he had at least one Tour win…

Roglic has trained the whole year and sacrificed everything this year for the Tour. The Tour was his main goal of the season.

He knew Jonas was good and of course accepted the joined leadership, but I do believe he was misguided by Jumbo into that.

Jumbo had all the numbers and knew Jonas would be closer to beating Pogi but they did believe it was useful to keep Roglic in the leadership role in case jonas dropped out with an injury or covid or to mislead Pogi and the others.

They were never going to ride for Roglic. The position of the bikes on the team car said it all. There was absolutely no reason why Wout’s bike needed to be ranked first. He had a win at that point and already a pretty good advantage in the green jersey competition. It would not matter if he lost time in GC.

Wout, with all respect for the others, their best non-GC rider, was then assigned to get Jonas as close to Pogi as possible.

Even after the cobble stage, Zeeman repeatedly said they did not counted out Primoz’ chances for GC. Whoever got to crack Pogi would get the advantage and then that would decide the leadership. I firmly believe That was the strategy told to Primoz at stage 11.

Primoz is a class act and he is not hating on Jonas (or Tadej in 2020) but this must hurt him mentally. He must ask himself the same questions as we do. What will this mean for his future?

likely no Tour leadership at Jumbo. And going to another team? What team is better than Jumbo? He still has a contráct.

That combined with an injury.

He is only human.

Ok, now with that explanation I can agree.

 

[bill1109]

Ok, now with that explanation I can agree.

Cycling is a cruel sport. Big Roglic fan here. He surely didn't think he would crash but here we are again. He crashed. For whatever reason. Teams move on. Fans are a bit slower to move on. If I were Roglic I'd be sad if I could not be there if Vingo..team ..wins. I always wondered why they cannot stick around if they are not riding.

 

[noob]

Cycling is a cruel sport. Big Roglic fan here. He surely didn't think he would crash but here we are again. He crashed. For whatever reason. Teams move on. Fans are a bit slower to move on. If I were Roglic I'd be sad if I could not be there if Vingo..team ..wins. I always wondered why they cannot stick around if they are not riding.

O Connor did stay for some time actually! Suddenly he was in interviews commenting on the stage the day after he had left and he looked so happy

But it might also be that if you're hurting maybe you'd rather go be with your family.

It's probably two-fold. I still think it was huge for Roglic to see Pog beaten on stage 11, even if he himself wasn't the one on the podium. Bitter sweet.

 

[bill1109]

O Connor did stay for some time actually! Suddenly he was in interviews commenting on the stage the day after he had left and he looked so happy

But it might also be that if you're hurting maybe you'd rather go be with your family.

It's probably two-fold. I still think it was huge for Roglic to see Pog beaten on stage 11, even if he himself wasn't the one on the podium. Bitter sweet.

If someone trains a year for a tour and crashes out , I guess it seems to me a challenge for family to be w them. ..but I'm only a fan so I cannot perceive these things. Seems that being there for moral support for team would be important. Maybe a rule I don't know about regarding dnf.

 

[RedheadDane]

If someone trains a year for a tour and crashes out , I guess it seems to me a challenge for family to be w them. ..but I'm only a fan so I cannot perceive these things. Seems that being there for moral support for team would be important. Maybe a rule I don't know about regarding dnf.

If a rider is injured, it probably isn't gonna help recovery to travel around France.

 

[noob]

If a rider is injured, it probably isn't gonna help recovery to travel around France.

Maybe it is that simple yes. I wouldn't love riding around in a bus on a bumpy road if my ass was hurting. And certainly not with a broken collarbone. And if I was ill I wouldn't want to transmit to the others so hmm yeah you're probably right

 

[bill1109]

If a rider is injured, it probably isn't gonna help recovery to travel around France.

Recovery can be managed by team ..technically...more so than being w family ..not as structured. But as I always say..I am an observer ..a jabroni...but have always wondered why they immediately leave. May be rule I don't know about.

 

[bill1109]

Recovery can be managed by team ..technically...more so than being w family ..not as structured. But as I always say..I am an observer ..a jabroni...but have always wondered why they immediately leave. May be rule I don't know about.

Funny thing for me to see is how Lance , George, Johan, criticize roglic abandon ...which clearly was done by team, i.e., soonsor ...there are videos explaining this...it's due to sponsors. ..and at same time most of the move is nowadays just kneeling on the knee for sponsors...lol...sickening to watch...but I love seeing the hypocrisy ..but it's important for analysts to create polemic ..I get it . Yawn.

 

[acm]

The whole friends stuff has limits, i.e. you won't see pictures of his teammates at his wedding.

Tratnik was at his wedding. Future teammate.

 

[bill1109]

Funny thing for me to see is how Lance , George, Johan, criticize roglic abandon ...which clearly was done by team, i.e., soonsor ...there are videos explaining this...it's due to sponsors. ..and at same time most of the move is nowadays just kneeling on the knee for sponsors...lol...sickening to watch...but I love seeing the hypocrisy ..but it's important for analysts to create polemic ..I get it . Yawn.

And York...another writer for clicks....another old time rider that pivots off of the old times ..while cycling is changing. ..like the move ...horner etc..I watch them all..have for years..writing for sponsors...Armstrong etc on the knee for sponsors ...criticizing current sponsor for sending roglic home. Love the hypocrisy.. but I get it. Podcasts need viewers etc and ball washers for old cyclists ...I'm old too ..but I see the changes. It's funny to watch. Also armchair forum DS criticizing Soler mngrs...while criticizing roglic. Funny to see hypocrisy...but it's tour time ...it's lives drama for clicks.

 

[bNator]

no, we are about to believe Roglic heroically offered his dream to win the Tour de France for his good friend Jonas. That he knew Jonas would be the actual team leader all along. That he suffered for 8 days as a martyr and was only leaving the race, crying, after he was forced to by the team management.

You believe in fairytales.

This is a hard world. Of course Jumbo will say it was their decision to pull him out.

Is he injured? Yes.

should he then be allowed to pull out if he wishes? of course.

But there is much more to this story. The bike situation before the cobble stage Already showed they were riding for Wout and Jonas in the first place.

This is the one cycling goal of Roglic. To win the Tour. Definetely after what happened in 2020,

Now he is faced with a contract until his likely retirement with a team who will never select him as a team leader in the Tour.

And we all have to believe Primoz is all ok with this? As so many people suggest on twitter: ”ah well he can go for monuments and the Giro for the rest of his career”.

No he does not want that. This is a huge blow for him. He is only human.

well he did not offer his dream - he offered his help which he knew he could provide considering he had no chances in winning the Tour himslef. Did he think about his long-term interests when doing that? I hope so. Me personally - I would never do what he did and I think for his own career it would have been better to stand down on stage 11.

But what proof do I have he actually helped Vinge in stage 11 and not try some impossible mission to serve his own interests? It's a very simple deduction... It would be very easy for him to bluff injury and stay behind claiming he simply can not punch. He could give a little bit less than he did. There is no way he thought he had enough in the tank to beat Pogi in stage 11 considering how early he dropped. He must have known these were his last words on that climb. And yet he did it. And this simple fact that he did it makes all your theories obsolete...

Edit: One scenario which (as Roglic fan) I refuse to believe but deem possible is that Roglic simply believes Vinge is better GC rider than him now. That he himself really is on demise and if not this year - he would be the dom next year. This is a dark scenario but unfortunately, it would explain his seemingly selfless actions on stage 11.

 

[VeloMaster]

I agree with the tenor of York's article, more than your point of view. They are hypotheses, but, after considering the matter, I think his injuries were secondary to preparing for the Vuelta. Clearly the team was measuring costs vs benefits, not, however, considering the potential loss of another rider as important as Kruewswik. York found it scandalous that a rider should have abandoned the Tour whilst still being capable of soldiering on, and absolutely has a right to do so having done it before, and especially when the team's got the yellow to defend.

And you (and York) know Rogla was 'capable' exactly how?

 

[bNator]

One more thing. Here we are basically dealing with 2 questions:

1. Did Roglič really help Vinge in stage 11 or did he try and do the impossible for himself?
2. Did Roglič abandon due to severity of his injuries or did he abandon to improve his Vuelta chances?

I think I proved that as far as the 1st question is concerned, he was indeed helping Vinge. As far as the second question is concerned - let's assume for the moment that his primary reason for abandoning the Tour is to improve his Vuelta chances. Even is this was true - did he not deserve his chance after his contribution to Vinge's current situation? I do not believe Vinge would be in Yellow if not for Roglič in stage 11. In fact, I think Vinge would still be 39 seconds behind with very little chance for winning the Tour at the moment. This in itself should grant Roglič his Vuelta chance considering he was no longer of any great use to the team anyway...

 

[bill1109]

One more thing. Here we are basically dealing with 2 questions:

1. Did Roglič really help Vinge in stage 11 or did he try and do the impossible for himself?
2. Did Roglič abandon due to severity of his injuries or did he abandon to improve his Vuelta chances?

I think I proved that as far as the 1st question is concerned, he was indeed helping Vinge. As far as the second question is concerned - let's assume for the moment that his primary reason for abandoning the Tour is to improve his Vuelta chances. Even is this was true - did he not deserve his chance after his contribution to Vinge's current situation? I do not believe Vinge would be in Yellow if not for Roglič in stage 11. In fact, I think Vinge would still be 39 seconds behind with very little chance for winning the Tour at the moment. This in itself should grant Roglič his Vuelta chance considering he was no longer of any great use to the team anyway...

Doesn't matter what roglic did. His team manager clearly stated the team wanted him to abandon. Quite simple. Whether reason was for vuelta or huggy kissy reasons ...the team wanted him to abandon. Anything beyond these facts are just for polemics...which always happen for the writers creating such polemics ...for their sponsors... While criticizing a rider for doing what their sponsor wishes..do I need to explain this hypocrisy further for those that are slow...or that are entrenched in the old geezer rider polemics??

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

well he did not offer his dream - he offered his help which he knew he could provide considering he had no chances in winning the Tour himslef. Did he think about his long-term interests when doing that? I hope so. Me personally - I would never do what he did and I think for his own career it would have been better to stand down on stage 11.

But what proof do I have he actually helped Vinge in stage 11 and not try some impossible mission to serve his own interests? It's a very simple deduction... It would be very easy for him to bluff injury and stay behind claiming he simply can not punch. He could give a little bit less than he did. There is no way he thought he had enough in the tank to beat Pogi in stage 11 considering how early he dropped. He must have known these were his last words on that climb. And yet he did it. And this simple fact that he did it makes all your theories obsolete...

Edit: One scenario which (as Roglic fan) I refuse to believe but deem possible is that Roglic simply believes Vinge is better GC rider than him now. That he himself really is on demise and if not this year - he would be the dom next year. This is a dark scenario but unfortunately, it would explain his seemingly selfless actions on stage 11.

This is a great point. He had to have known there was zero chance he was going to win the Tour after that crash and time loss. No way he thought he’d win. Agree that, we’re he being selfish, he would not have participated in that game plan, as 1) It ended his chances of possibly riding for the podium (though it has since become clear he is not healthy enough for that, possibly due to his hard riding that day; and 2) It established Vingegaard as the likely Tour winner and repositioned Vingegaard above Roglic in the hierarchy. Neither of those things were good for him, ergo he either vastly overrated his condition/health OR, more likely, he acted in the interest of Vingegaard and his team rather than his own.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@noob

Horner and the similar bunch criticizing Rogla. It's rather simple to deal with that. Just ask such people OK then lets take Roglič out of equation. Stage 11 would never had happened. Jonas likely being a minute down and not two and a half ahead.

What more do they want? As there still has to be an illusion of a sports side to it? If JV and Jonas can't keep this advantage. Then it's on them.

@Rackham

He likely lets people too close and they take advantage of him yes. He has now nurtured two Tour champions. Unless JV will blew it somehow. Likely Remco has already sent an email ...

All in all it should be fine. He now knows nobody will made the sacrifice for him on the Tour. For him to get two minute advantage. Tactically vise nobody is working for him or thinking on how to protect him more in the bunch on crucial stages. Team will be eager to throw in under the bus. Both Jonas and Pogi will be eager to win next edition. Still this is Roglič and this is cycling. He will still likely take the opportunity to win the Tour. And to work with that. If some other more serious team reaches out. He might go with that too. But the sweetest win will still come with JV. Imagine the smile on his and our faces when JV actually has to work for him. As he forced them into that. Priceless. But i agree that this is not optimal. Such champion should have devoted team support. And not this ***. But that is life in the end. You have to deal with the cards dealt. And this is our champion and we wouldn't have it any other way. We want the full scale. Not some youngster thinking he figured it out and is on top of the world. Winning a Tour edition or two. It's nice but there is more to it than that.

 

[noob]

Maybe this was posted earlier but even the DS says it's not sure he'll be at the Vuelta!

And the journalist quite polemic.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I wouldn't be surprised if he skips Vuelta. You must be in really good form and healthy to win it. ATM i doubt any of that is the case.

We'll see.

 

[Red Rick]

Maybe this was posted earlier but even the DS says it's not sure he'll be at the Vuelta!

And the journalist quite polemic.

They're very clear they have every intention of bringing him to the Vuelta and that he just needs to recover first

 

[Rackham]

I read this morning that Kruijswijk isn't going for surgery on his broken collar bone, i.e. he's been told it will heal naturally.

He was I believe scheduled to go to the Vuelta though, so I don't know what this means for the team selection. Maybe Bouwman will get a late recall if Kruijswijk isn't ready in time.

But I strongly believe Roglic will be in the Vuelta & based on his performance in the TdF (opening ITT & then La Super Planche des Belles Filles), I think he'll be okay performance wise.

 

[dazaau]

I see I have a bit to catch up on in here.

It's clear, only when a rider is not in the tour will their post count increase in July. Look out Remco - this thread is back!