Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Rackham]

This thread has lost their marbles.

I'm pretty sure Roglic is more thinking along the lines of wishing he'd been there today more than anything else.

I think watching Wout van Aert launch a solo attack at km zero (he was in front for 10km), then more & more attacks on the flat, followed by dropping everyone who was with him in the breakaway & finishing third on Hautacam, probably blew his mind. What he's thinking of with regards to his own place in that set-up, I have no idea. It's so out there in terms of craziness I can only shrug.

For what it's worth, Roglic always came across as a particularly human rider with certain limitations. Not many (i.e. he's still super strong in peak form), but just enough to keep it real. What we watched today from Jumbo (& in this TdF) had no limitations.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I mistyped. Meant to write Giro-Vuelta.

 

[Pippo_San]

The only thing I understood today is he definitely lost his chances at a Tour win.
This GT is totally doomed for him.
Game over.

 

[Bonimenier]

The only thing I understood today is he definitely lost his chances at a Tour win.
This GT is totally doomed for him.
Game over.

He didn't lose that chance today, he lost it 2 years ago. That was his big and only chance.

 

[CyclistAbi]

As there was a lot of responses. It was on a personal note. Objectively this Tour delivered. Subjectively i just need a bit of Roglstomp in my life. As for Rogličes future. I have a feeling we will still somehow manage just fine.

We'll see.

 

[bNator]

...

Jumbo have the strongest team and the strongest climber

...

This doesn't go just for your post but for any other post claiming the quoted fact. What was true yesterday and one week ago, was not true on Tirreno 2022 and Tour 2021 and may certainly not be true on Tour 2023. With current crazy dynamics I believe any kind of speculation how next year may pan out regarding relative strength of Pogi-Vinge is (though it makes an interesting conversation) pointless.

That being said - it really does look like Rogla is on a demise. There was only one little stomp this year on P-N and that was it. It makes a huge contrast to 2021 and especially 2020. So while I'm not at all certain that in 2023 Tour TJV will have "the strongest climber" it looks a little bit more certain that for Rogla (if the current trend continues), a TDF victory seems out of reach unfortunately...

 

[Red Rick]

Planche de Belles Filles and hell even AdH with heavy injureis were decent rides, I don't buy into the idea that he's washed.

Maybe he does do the Giro next year. I don't mind. I find that a lot less sad than chasing ghosts in July for the remaining years of his prime.

 

[bNator]

Planche de Belles Filles and hell even AdH with heavy injureis were decent rides, I don't buy into the idea that he's washed.

Maybe he does do the Giro next year. I don't mind. I find that a lot less sad than chasing ghosts in July for the remaining years of his prime.

It's not that he's washed, but there are indications that this year he is not on his 2020/2021 level. It was uncharacteristic of him to drop to Yates in P-N, then he lost Itsulia due to knee injury and in Dauphine he was (without any formally acknowledged injury) again weaker that he was in 2020 and would have been in 2021... Still good enough to win apparently - so not exactly washed.

Maybe it's some injury they are not telling us about and next year we get back our 2020/2021 Roglic or maybe it's a permanent slight drop in strength which makes TDF out of reach (under normal circumstances).

I would prefer he does the Giro... Seeing him fail in TDF leaves too many scars on my soul

 

[Red Rick]

It's not that he's washed, but there are indications that this year he is not on his 2020/2021 level. It was uncharacteristic of him to drop to Yates in P-N, then he lost Itsulia due to knee injury and in Dauphine he was (without any formally acknowledged injury) again weaker that he was in 2020 and would have been in 2021... Still good enough to win apparently - so not exactly washed.

Maybe it's some injury they are not telling us about and next year we get back our 2020/2021 Roglic or maybe it's a permanent slight drop in strength which makes TDF out of reach (under normal circumstances).

I would prefer he does the Giro... Seeing him fail in TDF leaves too many scars on my soul

He could make a teleportation attack off Vingegaard on stage 7, and then struggling to hold his wheel on stage 8 isn't that weak at this point.

I just hope for a good Vuelta.

 

[YavorD]

Being co-leader ready to launch two pronged attacks only made sense from the moment Pogacar was the strongest rider in the TdF.

There's literally nothing in it now from a Roglic perspective. Why should he launch a suicide attack next year on Pogacar when Vingegaard is the strongest rider in Grand Tour racing?

And Pogacar won't even follow Roglic anyway, i.e. he's going to sit on Vingegaard's wheel (because Vingegaard will be the TdF favorite) & try not to get dropped like this year.

Think you're too quick to declare Vingegaard as the best GC rider. Honestly, if Pog doesn't sprint for 5th place, doesn't follow Roglic (hense the need to make 20 attacks) on Glibier and has better luck with the team, isn't weaker than Vingo.

Roglic is still important asset for TdF.
And actually that may be his chance to win it, if P and V cancel each other.

 

[Rackham]

Think you're too quick to declare Vingegaard as the best GC rider. Honestly, if Pog doesn't sprint for 5th place, doesn't follow Roglic (hense the need to make 20 attacks) on Glibier and has better luck with the team, isn't weaker than Vingo.

Roglic is still important asset for TdF.
And actually that may be his chance to win it, if P and V cancel each other.

We'll find out a lot more at the Vuelta. The start-list will be stacked as well, with Pogacar amongst others.

Roglic has often gone to the Tour of Spain with a question mark over his form (& talk of his impeding demise, i.e. a common theme). There's just that nagging feeling that sooner or later his almost now cult modus-operandi which = "suffer disaster in one GT & then smash the next" might eventually come to an end.

I'd love for him to batter the Vuelta with a crushing 24 second winning margin again but I don't like accumulated injuries & talk of knee problems in Itzulia & back problems in this TdF.

Depending on what happens in August/September, we'll get a better idea of what's possible next year.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

We'll find out a lot more at the Vuelta. The start-list will be stacked as well, with Pogacar amongst others.

The start-list may be stacked but what will be the contenders' form? I doubt Pog will even start (and if he does he will still feel Tour fatigue), there's also some question mark over Primoz's recovery and form.

 

[CyclistAbi]

In regards to Tour 2023. I doubt that without the duo JV has much chance. That is if the level would be similar to this year. If he decides and goes then lets hope he gets himself in a position to win. In that case Jonas will need to make the sacrifice. But i agree that it should be acknowledged. Both competition and his team likely plotting against that.

 

[CyclistAbi]

In regards to all the talks regarding Vuelta. For me this Tour edition felt more like kissing a sister. I hence hope for a long and passionate kiss full of emotions in a non relatives related relationship. If not that then at least some Roglstomp.

We'll see.

 

[bNator]

In regards to Tour 2023. I doubt that without the duo JV has much chance. That is if the level would be similar to this year. If he decides and goes then lets hope he gets himself in a position to win. In that case Jonas will need to make the sacrifice. But i agree that it should be acknowledged. Both competition and his team likely plotting against that.

I think after the Pyrenees some of us need to reevaulate our position that without Primoz's help this year, Vinge has no chance of winning TDF. After seeing whta I saw - I think he had a decent shot even without Primoz 11th stage intervention...

 

[CyclistAbi]

I think after the Pyrenees some of us need to reevaulate our position that without Primoz's help this year, Vinge has no chance of winning TDF. After seeing whta I saw - I think he had a decent shot even without Primoz 11th stage intervention...

Nah. Without Primož what would happen is Pogi would just always get more bonus seconds at the finish line and would never get dropped by Jonas. Unless i guess he would still be rather stupid and would for example pull Jonas up the hill. When Jonas would clearly be behind in GC. And when it would become obvious he can't drop Jonas. To still continue with that. All in all in Pyrenees Pogi was much more active in wearing himself down. Due to the fact he had to be doing that. Being behind in GC. Otherwise he would just suck the wheel and still be ahead in GC.

 

[Rackham]

The start-list may be stacked but what will be the contenders' form? I doubt Pog will even start (and if he does he will still feel Tour fatigue), there's also some question mark over Primoz's recovery and form.

Give me Roglic versus Pogacar, i.e. like we've unfortunately not had enough of over the past two years. A proper fight on the punchiest, nastiest muritos of Spain. It's a fight I wanted in the TdF & it's something we need in August. I haven't even looked at the Vuelta route profiles yet (beyond knowing it starts in the Netherlands) but there's usually loads of stages for explosive racing.

Carapaz, Evenepoel, Pogacar, Hindley & Roglic etc. on paper looks awesome, but as for form... no idea. I tell myself Jumbo removed Roglic from the TdF precisely to focus on the Vuelta (they knew Vingegaard had the TdF in the bag) & I also tell myself Pogacar will want a GT this year after losing 'his' TdF.

The Vuelta hype will become a 'thing' the moment Roglic updates his instagram with one of his usual training ride selfies. Until then, I won't predict anything (not even his participation).

 

[CyclistAbi]

@bNator

But if JV generally feel like that. Personally i am OK with that. As then Roglič gets much more freedom in regards to his schedule in 2023.

 

[bNator]

Nah. Without Primož what would happen is Pogi would just always get more bonus seconds at the finish line and would never get dropped by Jonas. Unless i guess he would still be rather stupid and would for example pull Jonas up the hill. When Jonas would clearly be behind in GC. And when it would become obvious he can't drop Jonas. To still continue with that. All in all in Pyrenees Pogi was much more active in wearing himself down. Due to the fact he had to be doing that. Being behind in GC. Otherwise he would just suck the wheel and still be ahead in GC.

I think this Tour, we saw the limits of Pogi. We did not, however, neccessarily see the limits of Vinge. He may have had another gear, we can't be certain at this point. I hope/belive not but I would be careful when doubting that "without the duo JV has much chance". We could all be in for another shock next year when after Primoz wins Giro, Vinge goes on to beat Pogi in TDF.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I think this Tour, we saw the limits of Pogi. We did not, however, neccessarily see the limits of Vinge. He may have had another gear, we can't be certain at this point. I hope/belive not but I would be careful when doubting that "without the duo JV has much chance". We could all be in for another shock next year when after Primoz wins Giro, Vinge goes on to beat Pogi in TDF.

I don't feel that they will do the same mistake as UAE did. Without the duo their chances are in my opinion slim. They can prove me wrong in a couple of races that will follow this Tour edition. On where for example Pogi and Jonas will compete against each other and no Roglič in the team.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Another thing to consider is if they wouldn't take Roglič. Then Pogi will have Almeida. And they could basically do the same thing to JV. It's just unrealistic to believe they stand a chance without the duo. One sacrificing himself for the other. As Roglič fan here i obviously hope for Roglič to be on the better end next time. But i do acknowledge that both the competition and the team will be plotting against such outcome.

P.S. And on top of that. If Roglič participates next year. Then hopefully for Jonas to be in the same form. As Roglič needs a team member helping him gain 2 minutes on Pogi. Cyclists like Kuss or van Aert won't do. He basically needs Jonas. Just as Jonas needs him. Otherwise chances do get reduced substantially.

 

[Tinnekeisabella]

But then comes the question: we can speculate as much as we want: what does Roglic want?

I personally think this whole tour is a blow for him. The tour was his one an only goal in cycling still to be reached.

He is now not only pushed to the second Gc spot at jumbo, but will also be after Wout within the team hierarchy,

The wholy dynamic will be different I highly doubt Primoz will be at a GT with Jonas ever again.

 

[Tinnekeisabella]

Another thing to consider is if they wouldn't take Roglič. Then Pogi will have Almeida. And they could basically do the same thing to JV. It's just unrealistic to believe they stand a chance without the duo. One sacrificing himself for the other. As Roglič fan here i obviously hope for Roglič to be on the better end next time. But i do acknowledge that both the competition and the team will be plotting against such outcome.

P.S. And on top of that. If Roglič participates next year. Then hopefully for Jonas to be in the same form. As Roglič needs a team member helping him gain 2 minutes on Pogi. Cyclists like Kuss or van Aert won't do. He basically needs Jonas. Just as Jonas needs him. Otherwise chances do get reduced substantially.

I dont think Almeida would give up any of his chances to beat Jumbo fir Pogi.

He is at UAE with firm promises for sole leaderships in GT’s. A few weeks ago he even said he would lead the Vuelta squad even if Pogi was riding.

So I think UAE needs a firm talk with him because they need to bring a stronger team, that is for sure.

 

[Rackham]

Something else to consider is we could normally expect Roglic to feature in the Jumbo Visma TdF party in Paris on Sunday, or some other 'gesture' where his team pays some sort of tribute to Roglic for his contribution. He was integral to their TdF victory after all (& deserves some good vibes from the win after the 2020 disappointment which affected him first & foremost).

We might find out more about the upcoming plans (like his condition as well) at that point.

 

[bNator]

But then comes the question: we can speculate as much as we want: what does Roglic want?

I personally think this whole tour is a blow for him. The tour was his one an only goal in cycling still to be reached.

He is now not only pushed to the second Gc spot at jumbo, but will also be after Wout within the team hierarchy,

The wholy dynamic will be different I highly doubt Primoz will be at a GT with Jonas ever again.

Of course it was a blow and he is indeed their third rider in pecking order right now. I would still expect he gets the freedom to choose Giro over Tour if he believes he is incapable of defeating Vinge/Pogi.

I also expect that if he turns out in better form than Vinge on TDF he will get his chance to win the race. In 2018, he was not their TDF leader (Kruijswijk was) but was protected rider and he got enough of support to beat Kruijswijk in the end. They even saved him from certain GC doom in crosswinds stage...

So everything is not as bad for us (or as good for you) as it seems. A lot still depends on your current from and if you have the legs, things are a lot more simple.