Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[CyclistAbi]

Lol. This is a no-sense phrase. Of course the guys that make long-range attacks in the mountains, from Coppi down the line, become legends. It's heroicism personified and the sport at it's most romantic. Mountain sprinters not so much.

Yeah. And in that quoted post. The rest of it. I gave plenty of examples of that too.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Extinction was referring to Roglic attacking from afar for the GC in a Grand Tour for GC. Not for a stage when he is in no contention.m, not for a week race, and the counter attack with Bernal was already stated with Roglic not helping as much until the Valley when he had no reason to worry of the pair being caught. That’s why they said Roglic is mostly a mountain sprinter.

People saying that likely didn't spend all that much time watching Roglič race. He for example did just that at his first ever Tour stage win.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Exactly. Vino is a legend mainly because he was so charismatic off and ON the bike. Roglic is a negative rider even if I love his personallity. But this is just my opinion from what I have seen and I think I will never think the other way, Roglic has a great team that normally put a ferocious pace until 500 m/1 km and wait for Roglic to launch his sprint.

Personal opinions are OK. But saying he is a "negative rider". If we only take a look at 2022 season. Who was cracking Pogi at the Tour and who was cracking Evenepoel at the Vuelta and who was cracking Ineos at Itzulia ... ? And all of this has little to do with mountain sprinting. Bottom line you believe in something that is not true. On the bright side you are not the only person in this world doing that.

 

[CyclistAbi]

He's generally a very clinical and calculated rider. I think that's the main reason why people dislike him. In 2017-2018 i was a fan, but after a while it gets tedious fast. He's very good at TT's and he's very good at uphill sprints, and he has the best team around him, so it's usually enough to pummel his opponents for GC.

Surely Remco going pro in 2019 didn't play a big role.

 

[how yes no?]

...Just like in every other country in the world, [sport] news is predominately local or national. That means we get more news about 2nd, even 3rd tier Belgian riders, than 1st tier foreign riders. Please don't try to tell me this is any different in any other country. because i'm quite sure in the UK they will sooner talk about how Leicester City is failing, than they will talk about how PSG is doing. Belgians simply read Belgian news and that simply tends to be about Belgian cyclists first and foremost. This is the only explanation you need to be looking for.

I'll dissagree on this point. We (Slovenians) get far more news/reports (and there is more interest) in the foregin (international or not) sport competitions and events.
From footbal to basketball (2 bigest sports), to cycling (we had national tv coverage of giro/tour when no (relevant) Slovenian was racing), to winter sports, motor sports, you name it.
It's long been my hypothesis, that precisely our small size and number make us practicaly a non factor in the global world, so we are not subject in the process, ergo we have the position and capacity to be objective of the international affairs. Also in the middle of the west/not-west, not-south/south europe cross historicaly speaking.

When i talk about certain Belgian riders, i do so because A/ i believe in them (those i talk about) and B/ i can get more information about them a lot sooner and a lot more easily than riders from other countries. I don's speak Danish, i don't speak Spanish, Portuguese or Italian. So in order to get information on young/unknown riders from such countries, it requires a lot more energy or waiting for mainstream English/Dutch media to pick up on those. That's why i knew and believed in Van Aert before this forum ever heard his name, that's why i have been a firm believer in Evenepoel's potential and spoke of such riders before it might have seemed to make sense to non-Belgians on this forum. But i think now they know it did make sense.

Basicly everyone that in any capacity follows cycling has heard of Evenepoel even before he became a junior world champion (from my experience). It'd say that is soon enough and even argue in the opposite direction, the immense hype that was build around him, and the pressure put on his shoulders (also in not so small part because of him being the next great belgian hope) has had detrimental effect on his career at times (certainly not critically so).

 

[CyclistAbi]

But to get this back on topic, my opinion on Roglic being a calculated and clinical rider (can this even be up for debate, really?) ...

In my opinion for sure this can be up to debate. If we only scratch the surface. The man sells T-shirts saying no risk no glory. And we all know what lead to that. On top of that he crashes way to much. To be considered clinical.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I read the debate and i feel that "nationalism" talks are rather silly. Obviously you should and likely are proud if your countryman is doing well. But in the end it's about sport and from nationalism point of view it's about building tradition. The idea all people from Slovenia or Belgium feel the same about some cyclist, like Roglič, van Aert, Evenepoel, or just about anything. That is just silly. Just like all Russians don't support the war in Ukraine. You have a bit of everything in every nation. Whoever is telling you otherwise is leading you on. To put it mildly.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Surely Remco going pro in 2019 didn't play a big role.

None at all. Feel free to look back at my predictions for Evenepoel back in early 2019. Basically i expected him to maybe win a TT in a minor race like Sibiu. Nothing at WT level and nothing for GC with the big boys. So that certainly had nothing to do with it. It was the first year to my recollection however that Jumbo went all out with a train for Roglic.

I'll dissagree on this point. We get far more news/reports (and there is more interest) in the foregin (international or not) sport competitions and events.
From footbal to basketball (2 bigest sports), to cycling (we had national tv coverage of giro/tour when no (relevant) Slovenian was racing), to winter sports, motor sports, you name it.

Ok, maybe not every country, but most countries. Slovenia is even smaller than Belgium so maybe there is even less local news to discuss compared to foreign news. Over here however, you are more likely to read about a B-tier rider like Vansevenant than you are likely to read about an A-tier rider like Van Baarle or Ganna.

 

[CyclistAbi]

None at all. Feel free to look back at my predictions for Evenepoel back in early 2019. Basically i expected him to maybe win a TT in a minor race like Sibiu. Nothing at WT level and nothing for GC with the big boys. So that certainly had nothing to do with it. It was the first year to my recollection however that Jumbo went all out with a train for Roglic.

JV left Roglič dangling in way too many GT races. For that to even be a thing. How long did they last as a team at Vuelta 2022? On a good day one third of the climb? On a whole lot of races Roglič went mano a mano with the rest of the favorites. Among lots of other things. The verity is there. That is if you want to see it.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So long story short Roglič must beat Evenepoel in a long range solo attack. Then both Slovenians and Belgians will consider him being a legend.

Point taken.

 

[Gratemans]

Vehemently defending Evenepoel with each and every criticism thrown his way, however minor, while continually downplaying Roglic's performances is telling though. Wether it's telling of a certain degree of nationalism, no one knows: no one here is a mind reader. What it does show is bias.

I actually love to watch both of them riding, and can't wait forthe Giro. But first the Classics. Spring starts saturday!

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

JV left Roglič dangling in way too many GT races. For that to even be a thing. How long did they last as a team at Vuelta 2022? On a good day one third of the climb? On a whole lot of races Roglič went mano a mano with the rest of the favorites. Among lots of other things. The verity is there. That is if you want to see it.

As evident also in the Evenepoel topic, truth and impression do not always see eye to eye. I can see what you mean considering his support in GT (except maybe 2020 and those he crashed out of), and i do think the image that sticks (for me personally) is not the Roglic of the TDF or Giro, but the Roglic winning the Vuelta by boniseconds, and the Roglic winning Tirreno, UAE, Romandie... 2019 etc.

So long story short Roglič must beat Evenepoel in a long range solo attack. Then both Slovenians and Belgians will consider him being a legend.

I think for his career it would be great if he were still able to win the TDF. I also was never a fan of Cadel Evans, but he pleasantly surprised me by winning the TDF at a time i thought he was done. And he actually deserved that win (imho).

Vehemently defending Evenepoel with each and every criticism thrown his way, however minor, while continually downplaying Roglic's performances is telling though. Wether it's telling of a certain degree of nationalism, no one knows: no one here is a mind reader. What it does show is bias.

Sure, and as we've all established on the forum, being biased towards Evenepoel = bad. Being biased towards Roglic = good. I mean, if anything has to be clear as day by now, it has to be that.
But to counter your disingenuous post, i assume you are talking about me, and yet you must not be reading what i've been saying, or you are twisting words in order to fit your strawman arguments. Saying Roglic is a calculated and clinical rider is not continually downplaying anybody's performances. He isn't prone to take risks and he has a very high succes rate. Hence, clinical and calculated.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Logic-is-your-friend

Both Tour and Giro are still missing from the palmares. Roglič said the order in which he ads them is not all that important to him. And in the end it's true. Both are stage cycling races and Roglič is good at winning them. Not just by mountain sprinting. No special reason on why this two would be any different.

 

[Gratemans]

Sure, and as we've all established on the forum, being biased towards Evenepoel = bad. Being biased towards Roglic = good. I mean, if anything has to be clear as day by now, it has to be that.
But to counter your disingenuous post, i assume you are talking about me, and yet you must not be reading what i've been saying, or you are twisting words in order to fit your strawman arguments. Saying Roglic is a calculated and clinical rider is not continually downplaying anybody's performances. He isn't prone to take risks and he has a very high succes rate. Hence, clinical and calculated.

There is nothing disingenuous here. I'm just saying let it go sometimes. You reacting to each and every criticism of Remco is getting really tiresome. I actually like the guy. But you're not helping.

Also: "being biased towards Evenepoel = bad. Being biased towards Roglic = good." Talk about twisting words

 

[CyclistAbi]

It's three day till Catalunya. A bit of bickering is to be expected. Or should i say bikering.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

There is nothing disingenuous here. I'm just saying let it go sometimes. You reacting to each and every criticism of Remco is getting really tiresome. I actually like the guy. But you're not helping.

Also: "being biased towards Evenepoel = bad. Being biased towards Roglic = good." Talk about twisting words

I simply respond to posts that are addressed to me when engaged in a discussion. But it is funny that you talk about bias but fail to see your own bias. I should not react to criticism on Evenepoel, but on the other hand i should also not be allowed to be critical of (in this case) Roglic. So, i wasn't really twisting words, i was simply interpreting them. Have you made a similar post to certain Roglic fans defending him for instance when he was clearly in the wrong during the Wright fiasco? If so, my apologies.

 

[how yes no?]

I'll agree to a certain degree about Roglic being clinical and calculated, but I'm also convinced that it's not in his nature and he was "institutionalized" into this role by the Jumbo team, who were unsure about themselves and were trying to copy (or improve upon) the sky train. And you have to give it to them, in theory it should work. But really it's just the crashes missfortune and Pogacar being made from the similiar but possibly improved mould, that prevent Primož being seen as a top GT rider of the last 5 years (and these were strong 5 years, I think).
Him lacking the cycling background also had influence on him not being confident in the tactics himself and always believeing/relying on team orders, something Pogacar or Mohoric type of almost cycling profesors would never do.
I also believe this tactic has contributed to some of his mistakes (not just straight-up pwning everyone at the giro while he was still healthy,...) more often than not and certainly made people less aware of those of his abilities, that don't get a chance to be displayed in full glory.

 

[how yes no?]

you want some vintage, reckless, uncalculated Roglic, to showcase how he would race if he was not institutionalized otherwise?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGLPOlEOUj4

nice compilation, never saw before, you can see his solo mindless attacks from the far, in the starting wins..

 

[Gratemans]

I simply respond to posts that are addressed to me when engaged in a discussion. But it is funny that you talk about bias but fail to see your own bias. I should not react to criticism on Evenepoel, but on the other hand i should also not be allowed to be critical of (in this case) Roglic. So, i wasn't really twisting words, i was simply interpreting them. Have you made a similar post to certain Roglic fans defending him for instance when he was clearly in the wrong during the Wright fiasco? If so, my apologies.

I have no bias towards either of them. I'm happy to admit I may have a bias towards you, because of you simultaniously defending Remco on everything and coming down on Roglic, and doing so a lot in both threads at the same time.
And for the record: yes, the Wright thing was clearly Primoz's fault. I wasn't actively posting around that time though.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Regarding Remco vs, Roglic, I just reviewed the 2022 Vuelta stage results. First let me say that I am a Roglic fan first, Pogi fan second, and a Remco fan third, meaning I am not not a Remco fan.

I think Remco is phenomenal, but he prepped specifically for this race, whereas Roglic crashed out of the Tour with back and shoulder issues and did not have great prep, even if it was better than suggested. And yet, even factoring in Remco’s crash (which, by the way, many GC riders crash at least once in a GT; Contador personally couldn’t get enough time with the asphalt), the results to me don’t scream that he is clearly better than Roglic (given context) or on the level of Pogi/Vingo.

• Crushed the ITT, no doubt about that; he likely would have gained at least 30 seconds on an in-form Roglic or peak Pogi or Vingo IMO; he was flying
• Basically, Remco had one single superior climbing performance on stage 9, when he put 34 seconds on Ayuso, 44 on Mas, and over a minute on Roglic
• Aside from that, he lost more time to Mas on climbs than he gained and never beat Mas by more than 2 seconds
• On stage 6, when he put over a minute into Roglic, he was only 1 second ahead of Mas
• Unless I’m missing something, Remco did not have any dramatic long range attacks

Again, this isn’t to say that Remco isn’t destined for even greater palmares than his already amazing collection, but reading that do you really think, Man, no way Roglic can beat this guy in a GT?

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Also, speaking about Roglic being calculated, I think his ballsy, unexpected attack from 2.5km out on a sprint stage during stage 16 of the Vuelta was sadly overshadowed by his crash and poor handling of the aftermath. That was bold, not safe (clearly).

Edit: meant to say Vuelta rather than Tour. Fixed.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Regarding Remco vs, Roglic, I just reviewed the 2022 Vuelta stage results. First let me say that I am a Roglic fan first, Pogi fan second, and a Remco fan third, meaning I am not not a Remco fan.

I think m Remco is phenomenal, but he prepped specifically for this race, whereas Roglic crashed out of the Tour with back and shoulder issues and did not have great prep, even if it was better than suggested. And yet, even factoring in Remco’s crash (which, by the way, many GC riders crash at least once in a GT; Contador personally couldn’t get enough time with the asphalt), the results to me don’t scream that he is clearly better than Roglic (given context) or on the level of Pogi/Vingo.

• Crushed the ITT, no doubt about that; he likely would have gained at least 30 seconds on an in-form Roglic or peak Pogi or Vingo IMO; he was flying
• Basically, Remco had one single superior climbing performance on stage 9, when he put 34 seconds on Ayuso, 44 on Mas, and over a minute on Roglic
• Aside from that, he lost more time to Mas on climbs than he gained and never beat Mas by more than 2 seconds
• On stage 6, when he put over a minute into Roglic, he was only 1 second ahead of Mas
• Unless I’m missing something, Remco did not have any dramatic long range attacks

Again, this isn’t to say that Remco isn’t destined for even greater palmares than his already amazing collection, but reading that do you really think, Man, no way Roglic can beat this guy in a GT?

Pretty much agree except for stage 6. Mas was hanging on by the skin of his teeth and couldn't once take a turn. You downplay this stage for Evenepoel based on Mas only losing 2s, while at the meanwhile he dropped all the other big names by well over a minute. Only Ayuso (who ended up losing 40 seconds in the end as well) did better than Roglic, Yates, Almeida... Vine was no threat for GC and had been taking it easy on previous stages. For me this was a key stage and key move by Evenepoel, because with the TT in sight (knowing Mas would lose minutes), it put him in control and virtually all the other GC contenders on the back foot.

An other thing you are likely overlooking is that Roglic is now 33, and Evenepoel is now 23 and has just only finished a GT for the first time, which he coincidentally also won. That means Evenepoel likely has some room to improve, while Roglic will need to try and not decline.

Also, speaking about Roglic being calculated, I think his ballsy, unexpected attack from 2.5km out on a sprint stage during stage 16 of the Tour was sadly overshadowed by his crash and poor handling of the aftermath. That was bold, not safe (clearly).

You mean the Vuelta? I disagree here, because both mountain stages where he could take time back on Evenepoel had come and gone and he was still trailing by over a minute and a half. So everybody knew Roglic needed to do something. Basically he was forced to play his hand, and if he had not been on the back foot, i very much doubt he would have attacked. So if he wanted to win the Vuelta, he had to do something. So i don't think it was really unexpected or ballsy, rather being left with few options to turn things around.

 

[SHAD0W93]

It's still ***. Doesn't matter how you try to wrap it.

It’s the same thing Valverde fans had to listen too. That he attacks in other races but the biggest ones he sits on the wheels and sprints away.

 

[Gargamel35]

Regarding Remco vs, Roglic, I just reviewed the 2022 Vuelta stage results. First let me say that I am a Roglic fan first, Pogi fan second, and a Remco fan third, meaning I am not not a Remco fan.

I think m Remco is phenomenal, but he prepped specifically for this race, whereas Roglic crashed out of the Tour with back and shoulder issues and did not have great prep, even if it was better than suggested. And yet, even factoring in Remco’s crash (which, by the way, many GC riders crash at least once in a GT; Contador personally couldn’t get enough time with the asphalt), the results to me don’t scream that he is clearly better than Roglic (given context) or on the level of Pogi/Vingo.

• Crushed the ITT, no doubt about that; he likely would have gained at least 30 seconds on an in-form Roglic or peak Pogi or Vingo IMO; he was flying
• Basically, Remco had one single superior climbing performance on stage 9, when he put 34 seconds on Ayuso, 44 on Mas, and over a minute on Roglic
• Aside from that, he lost more time to Mas on climbs than he gained and never beat Mas by more than 2 seconds
• On stage 6, when he put over a minute into Roglic, he was only 1 second ahead of Mas
• Unless I’m missing something, Remco did not have any dramatic long range attacks

Again, this isn’t to say that Remco isn’t destined for even greater palmares than his already amazing collection, but reading that do you really think, Man, no way Roglic can beat this guy in a GT?

Look at his post count. And look what most are about. His whole life is dedicated about writing why everybody are wrong about golden Belgiums. He reacts to everything all the time with looong posts no one cares to read or write back after a while.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Any bona fied Roglič fan will tell you that the range of emotions is too big. On top of that he is dominant and races intelligently. Holding that against him is hence silly. JV for sure plays a big role as a team. Then again without Roglič JV doesn't win all that much stage races. Roglič is hence just as important for JV as JV is for Roglič. They are a good match. On top of that he has and will continue to beat Pogi, Jonas and Remco on stage races and beyond. That is part of the reason why we love him so much. And on why some have issues with him. Because he had and will continue to beat their favorites on the road. No shame in that. That is why fans are for.