Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Elos Anjos]

Acknowledging bias is acceptable in any discussion. Even if that bias happens to be equivalent to the more than natural tendency of fans favouring riders from their country. Calling it nationalistic doesn't change that there is a bias that clouds many preferences and dislikes.

 

[Gratemans]

Maybe you should refrein from commenting on subjects you have no idea what you are talking about and take your bullcrap nationalistic pile of vomit elsewhere.

Well.... I'll admit he's generalizing here: of course not all Belgians think like that about Roglic. But right after the Worlds a lot of them sure seemed to if you read all the socials / forums at the time. Or even some Belgian commentators I usually hold in high regard. Talk about nationalistic..

 

[Nick2413]

I really don’t think there’s anything wrong with a bit of bias. Of course you’re going to probably keep a closer eye on riders from your country or area. Especially in these geographically small European countries where you might live in the same town as some of these big names. Some people take it too far but it’s not really a big deal imo.

 

[Oldermanish]

Not according to Belgians. One is boring mountain sprinter, the other attacks and wins too much. Boring again.

Having an opinion doesn't qualify as a nation's predisposition. I poke fun at the Belgian dedication to their own but a friend and teammate embraced their culture completely to the point he'd ride in the PNW wet winter with minimal clothing to get ready. His name was Tyler and he became a good racer.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I really don’t think there’s anything wrong with a bit of bias. Of course you’re going to probably keep a closer eye on riders from your country or area. Especially in these geographically small European countries where you might live in the same town as some of these big names. Some people take it too far but it’s not really a big deal imo.

The issue is not that people are biased and root for their countrymen. This is completely normal. The issue is The Youngest continued and recurring vilifying of Belgians because he thinks he is entitled to it, and he thinks he has reason to do so. There is a word for it and it should not be tolerated.

 

[Gargamel35]

Well someone got stepped on his toes here.

It's funny how Belgians come to a another rider thread and talk crap about that rider all the time (only opinions that you just must share and are the truth right) but when they finally get told to *** off with their holly riders and opinions, they act like a bunch of whining babies.

I know it's hard to live in an era where a country with huge cycling history produces couple of great cyclists that get trashed so much by two Slovenians and a Danish fish guy. You don't need to hate on everybody and come to threads and constantly poke around. Or if you do, be a man and take it.

 

[bNator]

Come on guys, stop with this crap...

@Logic-is-your-friend will always try to belittle Roglic's achievements and present him as a wheelsucker with the best team who sprints well but is otherwise a rather average cyclist who is about to fade anyway so where's the point even discussing him. That's why it will be so much more entertaining once he wins the Catalunya and then the Giro

 

[Bolder]

He's generally a very clinical and calculated rider. I think that's the main reason why people dislike him. In 2017-2018 i was a fan, but after a while it gets tedious fast. He's very good at TT's and he's very good at uphill sprints, and he has the best team around him, so it's usually enough to pummel his opponents for GC.

Does anyone REALLY "dislike" Roglic? I can't really think of anything he's done as a rider or person (except the Wright) incident that would make you turn against him. Maybe you could be neutral about him, at worst. He can attack if need be but since his strengths are so well suited for winning races, there's really no need for him to change. His win total speaks for itself.

 

[theyoungest]

Maybe you should refrein from commenting on subjects you have no idea what you are talking about and take your bullcrap nationalistic pile of vomit elsewhere.

Everyone has bias and everyone exists in a certain media environment. But you have to recognize it. In Belgium there exists this interesting idea that Belgians aren't particularly nationalistic, but they are. Very much so. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but it does cloud a lot of the analysis I see in your cycling media. The way they've been treating Roglic even borders on ridiculous.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Everyone has bias and everyone exists in a certain media environment. But you have to recognize it. In Belgium there exists this interesting idea that Belgians aren't particularly nationalistic, but they are. Very much so. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but it does cloud a lot of the analysis I see in your cycling media. The way they've been treating Roglic even borders on ridiculous.

Please go on, and tell us how "the Belgians" have been treating Roglic. What borders on the ridiculous are your claims that are based on nothing but anecdotal evidence.

Belgians are nationalistic. That in itself is a meaningless statement unless you form a frame of reference. How nationalistic are they according to you? Are they even remotely as nationalistic as the Dutch for instance? Or you only take into account the evidence you wish to see, and in this case chose to ignore how a country with a rather small footprint when it comes to football, turns into a crazed orange brigade of nearly 20 million, acting like they will become world champion's ever since the 1970s? See, this is why i asked you to not talk about things you have no idea of. Belgium, as a country is basically built from scraps, of leftovers after centuries of subjugation. Romans, Norsemen, Spanish, French, Dutch, all the way up to 1830 when the country was formed, and later even after the WW, we got a piece of Germany. The country itself is in a constant state of existential crisis. Two major parts of the country have little interest in what the other part is doing. There are dozens of subcultures, regions that differ tremendously, only miles removed. Limburgers are nothing like West Vlamingen and neither are anything like people from Antwerp or Brussels. Neither is there a strong sense of connection to those other regions. And that's just talking about Flanders. Half of the people would like the monarchy gone, the other part doesn't. So please tell us how nationalistic Belgians are. Because compared to the British, the French, the Dutch, the Italians, the US Americans... i think Belgians aren't really all that nationalistic. But i'm sure to some degree they will be nationalistic. So again, without a frame of reference that is a meaningless statement.

 

[Netserk]

Please go on, and tell us how "the Belgians" have been treating Roglic. What borders on the ridiculous are your claims that are based on nothing but anecdotal evidence.

Belgians are nationalistic. That in itself is a meaningless statement unless you form a frame of reference. How nationalistic are they according to you? Are they even remotely as nationalistic as the Dutch for instance? Or you only take into account the evidence you wish to see, and in this case chose to ignore how a country with a rather small footprint when it comes to football, turns into a crazed orange brigade of nearly 20 million, acting like they will become world champion's ever since the 1970s? See, this is why i asked you to not talk about things you have no idea of. Belgium, as a country is basically built from scraps, of leftovers after centuries of subjugation. Romans, Norsemen, Spanish, French, Dutch, all the way up to 1830 when the country was formed, and later even after the WW, we got a piece of Germany. The country itself is in a constant state of existential crisis. Two major parts of the country have little interest in what the other part is doing. There are dozens of subcultures, regions that differ tremendously, only miles removed. Limburgers are nothing like West Vlamingen and neither are anything like people from Antwerp or Brussels. Neither is there a strong sense of connection to those other regions. And that's just talking about Flanders. Half of the people would like the monarchy gone, the other part doesn't. So please tell us how nationalistic Belgians are. Because compared to the British, the French, the Dutch, the Italians, the US Americans... i think Belgians aren't really all that nationalistic. But i'm sure to some degree they will be nationalistic. So again, without a frame of reference that is a meaningless statement.

It's indeed a great paradox. How can a fake nation be so nationalistic?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

When Ilmaestro is the first one giving love to your post about nationalism, you know you are full of ***.

 

[Elos Anjos]

What a load of crap.

He doesn't have to prove belgians are nationalistic or provide a frame of reference whatsoever.

The onus is on people like you - belgians, slovenians, whatever - who go over the top when they are said to be biased towards some riders who have in common a property of belonging to a given collective set. In this case, the bias is supported by a country with a strong cycling background.

Just grow up and acknowledge it without insulting who points to the obvious.

 

[Gargamel35]

When you get loooong elaborations why something isn't true, just proves the point, it's very true. So much talking but fails to talk himself to sleep.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

What a load of crap.

He doesn't have to prove belgians are nationalistic or provide a frame of reference whatsoever.

The onus is on people like you - belgians, slovenians, whatever - who go over the top when they are said to be biased towards some riders who have in common a property of belonging to a given collective set. In this case, the bias is supported by a country with a strong cycling background.

Just grow up and acknowledge it without insulting who points to the obvious.

That's not how it works. You make a claim, you prove it and form a frame of reference.
You are Portuguese, right? Ok, so here is my claim: Portuguese have a terrible smelly breath. Up to you to prove this is not correct, if you can't then it must be true.

 

[Gargamel35]

That's not how it works. You make a claim, you prove it and form a frame of reference.

Sir, this is an internet forum about....cycling. Please remove your lawyers from my lawn.

 

[Elos Anjos]

I pay João Almeida more than due attention because he and I are Portuguese. There, see, it's very simple.

That does not mean I'm nationalistic. It's a bias that is not for one to ignore and doesn't mean I'm clouded towards his misgievings. But it's not the only reason for me to enjoy how he rides and how he develops. And that goes without saying for every rider.

What I take in this Forum from some belgian users is there are ton load of bias in likes and dislikes about belgians and other riders in belgian teams or with belgian colleagues. Roglic is a good point in case.

 

[Nick2413]

I think a lot of this stems from the fact the media is biased and every thing the media touches gets turned into a circus. And that is also reflected in the way people talk and share views on forum boards. Combine that with a country that generally has a lot of very passionate cycling fans and you’re going to get some exaggerated perceptions and over-generalizations.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I pay João Almeida more than due attention because he and I are Portuguese. There, see, it's very simple.

That does not mean I'm nationalistic. It's a bias that is not for one to ignore and doesn't mean I'm clouded towards his misgievings. But it's not the only reason for me to enjoy how he rides and how he develops. And that goes without saying for every rider.

What I take in this Forum from some belgian users is there are ton load of bias in likes and dislikes about belgians and other riders in belgian teams or with belgian colleagues. Roglic is a good point in case.

If you go by square miles and by population, you will find Belgium is the most cycling-centric country in the world. A much larger percentage of Belgian population turns pro cyclist than any other country in the world, because there are only 11 million of us. The country is so small that basically every town has its own cycling race. Lots of sports journalism is cycling related. Just like in every other country in the world, news is predominately local or national. That means we get more news about 2nd, even 3rd tier Belgian riders, than 1st tier foreign riders. Please don't try to tell me this is any different in any other country. because i'm quite sure in the UK they will sooner talk about how Leicester City is failing, than they will talk about how PSG is doing. Belgians simply read Belgian news and that simply tends to be about Belgian cyclists first and foremost. This is the only explanation you need to be looking for.

When i talk about certain Belgian riders, i do so because A/ i believe in them (those i talk about) and B/ i can get more information about them a lot sooner and a lot more easily than riders from other countries. I don's speak Danish, i don't speak Spanish, Portuguese or Italian. So in order to get information on young/unknown riders from such countries, it requires a lot more energy or waiting for mainstream English/Dutch media to pick up on those. That's why i knew and believed in Van Aert before this forum ever heard his name, that's why i have been a firm believer in Evenepoel's potential and spoke of such riders before it might have seemed to make sense to non-Belgians on this forum. But i think now they know it did make sense.

 

[theyoungest]

Please go on, and tell us how "the Belgians" have been treating Roglic. What borders on the ridiculous are your claims that are based on nothing but anecdotal evidence.

Belgians are nationalistic. That in itself is a meaningless statement unless you form a frame of reference. How nationalistic are they according to you? Are they even remotely as nationalistic as the Dutch for instance? Or you only take into account the evidence you wish to see, and in this case chose to ignore how a country with a rather small footprint when it comes to football, turns into a crazed orange brigade of nearly 20 million, acting like they will become world champion's ever since the 1970s? See, this is why i asked you to not talk about things you have no idea of. Belgium, as a country is basically built from scraps, of leftovers after centuries of subjugation. Romans, Norsemen, Spanish, French, Dutch, all the way up to 1830 when the country was formed, and later even after the WW, we got a piece of Germany. The country itself is in a constant state of existential crisis. Two major parts of the country have little interest in what the other part is doing. There are dozens of subcultures, regions that differ tremendously, only miles removed. Limburgers are nothing like West Vlamingen and neither are anything like people from Antwerp or Brussels. Neither is there a strong sense of connection to those other regions. And that's just talking about Flanders. Half of the people would like the monarchy gone, the other part doesn't. So please tell us how nationalistic Belgians are. Because compared to the British, the French, the Dutch, the Italians, the US Americans... i think Belgians aren't really all that nationalistic. But i'm sure to some degree they will be nationalistic. So again, without a frame of reference that is a meaningless statement.

Yeah, that is the usual argument, "Belgium isn't a real country so we can't be nationalistic". But this kind of self-deprecation exists in every nation. You don't need to explain the entire history of Belgium as a fragmented country to me, as if that precludes you from being nationalistic. I'm not saying you're more nationalistic than other countries, but definitely not less either. This is an idea that's being perpetuated by Belgian media, and by Belgians like yourself. Let me tell you from an outside perspective: it's just not true. There may be a bit of an inferiority complex, but there's definitely a lot of national pride. Not in everyone of course, just like not every Dutch person identifies themselves with the orange sea of plastic tulips and rubber windmills.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Yeah, that is the usual argument, "Belgium isn't a real country so we can't be nationalistic". But this kind of self-deprecation exists in every nation. You don't need to explain the entire history of Belgium as a fragmented country to me, as if that precludes you from being nationalistic. I'm not saying you're more nationalistic than other countries, but definitely not less either. This is an idea that's being perpetuated by Belgian media, and by Belgians like yourself. Let me tell you from an outside perspective: it's just not true. There may be a bit of an inferiority complex, but there's definitely a lot of national pride. Not in everyone of course, just like not every Dutch person identifies themselves with the orange sea of plastic tulips and rubber windmills.

Well if you and at least half a dozen others on this forum all agree that Belgians are nationalistic, then that settles it. I can't argue against this irrefutable and damning evidence. Case closed.

I think a lot of what you perceive as nationalism, comes from what i wrote in my previous post right above yours. I also have no doubt that most if not all of your impressions about Belgians being nationalists, comes from within the cycling bubble.

But to get this back on topic, my opinion on Roglic being a calculated and clinical rider (can this even be up for debate, really?) has nothing to do with Van Aert and Roglic not having closed the gap during the 2020 WCC.

 

[frisenfruitig]

Everyone has bias and everyone exists in a certain media environment. But you have to recognize it. In Belgium there exists this interesting idea that Belgians aren't particularly nationalistic, but they are. Very much so. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but it does cloud a lot of the analysis I see in your cycling media. The way they've been treating Roglic even borders on ridiculous.

How are they treating Roglic? I remember that he got some criticism when he didn't help WVA become WC but other than that I don't know what you're talking about. You seem to think he is being vilified or something but I'm not seeing it.

Personally I think he is a bit of a boring rider who knows how to play to his strengths. Not very entertaining but understandable.

 

[Rackham]

I think whomever initiated the Belgian influx into this thread & current arguments is a genius, i.e. with the build-up towards the Giro, if most Rogla versus Belgium (oops, I mean Evenepoel) debates could take place here, it'll grow & grow & grow & maybe close that gap on Remco's thread.

Because that's what's really at stake this season. Nearly 10k replies, let's do this.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Wow, the Roglic vs Evenepoel rivalry is so intense...at least on the forum. Somebody tell them that even the forum's most unbiased experts can't contain themselves when it comes to this...oh wait, I forgot that they are here and build the tension even more.

 

[bNator]

I think whomever initiated the Belgian influx into this thread & current arguments is a genius, i.e. with the build-up towards the Giro, if most Rogla versus Belgium (oops, I mean Evenepoel) debates could take place here, it'll grow & grow & grow & maybe close that gap on Remco's thread.

Because that's what's really at stake this season. Nearly 10k replies, let's do this.

Exactly. This recent quality content in this thread is eating into Remco’s post count quota nicely. Keep it up, guys