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Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

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Prep aside, pretty unfair on Evenepoel when he had to race against the strongest three riders in the race who were all on the same team while also having the strongest team in the race his his team wasn’t close to their level. All it took for Pog to blow up was two Jumbo leaders and a really strong team, took Evenepoel going up against three Jumbo leaders.
More or less unfair than calling Roglic's Giro victory lucky?

I had a prolongued discussion about this with some guys in Remco topic before the Vuelta. I said then that I am not yet convinced he's up to the task when going for GC with the best riders on a really hard route in high mountains. I stand by that, but I am open to change my mind as soon as he manages to keep up with prime Rog, Pog or Vinge on a block of mountain stages with several 1st+ category climbs. I think that's a reasonable doubt. Until then, I would not consider Roglic victory a lucky victory just because Remco didn't finish or had some other mishap...

Edit: The way Remco blew... It wasn't so much of a problem that he couldn't compete with Rog, Vinge or even Kuss. The problem was he was blown at the beginning of the stage, 150km from the finish. You can't really compare that to Granon or de la Loze. Pog was under severe pressure that day and he only blew on the ast climb. Remco was under no pressure (yet), they didn't even try to drop him at that point yet. That's what points to the fact he actually does have a big problem with endurance in stacked high-mountain stages.
 
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Kuss was never a leader until he got the Red Jersey.
And since he got the lead he was a GC threat due to his lead and strength of his two teammates. How do you think Roglic would have done with the positions swapped and getting bullied by three as or stronger riders with a far stronger team than him?

All it took Pogi to blow up in Granon was that he thought Roglic could be in the game so he covered all his attacks.
Right, which is due to Jumbo having two GC leaders plus his previous attacks and showboating. Evenepoel had to worry about two and then three of them. Who all showed to be the strongest in the race, that’s extremely stressful.


More or less unfair than calling Roglic's Giro victory lucky?

I had a prolongued discussion about this with some guys in Remco topic before the Vuelta. I said then that I am not yet convinced he's up to the task when going for GC with the best riders on a really hard route in high mountains. I stand by that, but I am open to change my mind as soon as he manages to keep up with prime Rog, Pog or Vinge on a block of mountain stages with several 1st+ category climbs. I think that's a reasonable doubt. Until then, I would not consider Roglic victory a lucky victory just because Remco didn't finish or had some other mishap...

Edit: The way Remco blew... It wasn't so much of a problem that he couldn't compete with Rog, Vinge or even Kuss. The problem was he was blown at the beginning of the stage, 150km from the finish. You can't really compare that to Granon or de la Loze. Pog was under severe pressure that day and he only blew on the ast climb. Remco was under no pressure (yet), they didn't even try to drop him at that point yet. That's what points to the fact he actually does have a big problem with endurance in stacked high-mountain stages.
If the roles were reversed and it was Roglic who went out with Covid (and Hart with injury) and Evenepoel won all we would hear is how Evenepoel was lucky Roglic became ill, like in the Vuelta last year. Two big favorites went out of the race. Both fan groups are the same side of the coin in regards to the respective riders. The fact is Roglic was losing to Evenepoel in 2022 and only gained time after Evenepoel crashed and had the flat. Yet having a crash is disregarded for Evenepoel when Roglic crashes it’s always brought up for poor performances that occurred on top of saying Evenepoel faked a flat tire to not lose more time. Just like Evenepoel was faking an illness this year. Rolgic wasn’t running away with the Giro like in 2021 Vuelta, he was struggling and didn’t show up until the MTT.

How do you think the roles would have played out if Roglic was in that position of going against 3 as or stronger riders all on the same team and around you in GC while their team is head and shoulders above the rest and yours?

Evenepoel cracked after multiple stages of worrying about two and then three riders all on Jumbo and instead of riding on to save a top 10 gave up so he could go for stages. Now did he underestimate two of the three riders, yes he very much did. He at the start was only worried about Vinge and ended getting worked over by Roglic and Kuss. Something I don’t think Roglic would have walked into per se due to the 2019 Giro.

Pog cracked after attacking every chance he got, responding to Jumbo’s two leaders, and showboating. Then he cracked this year from his poor prep and attempting to go blow for blow with Vinge.

On top of Evenepoel being more focused on Worlds and preparing for the WTT and then having to change his training from the flats to the mountains while losing weight to ride a race he wasn’t planning on doing. Many bring up Roglic potentially not planning on riding the Vuelta in some of his wins but either neglect or forget to mention that he was still training for a GT ride, not one day races and a long, flat TT. If the scenarios were reversed and Roglic had Evenepoel’s prep, we never would have heard the end of it still. Just for a different rider.

So it can be unfair adding in the poor prep and mental aspect and there goes Evenepoel riding out the back.
 
In 2023 season Rogla finished higher then Remco on 3 stage races. On all occasions they raced against each other. On Saturday we should get some additional answers in regard to monuments. Due to both racing at Lombardia.

P.S. In 2024 Remco will have former Rogličes team at his disposal, or some other team, with know how in stage racing. So we should get some additional answers, team strength ...
 
If the roles were reversed and it was Roglic who went out with Covid (and Hart with injury) and Evenepoel won all we would hear is how Evenepoel was lucky Roglic became ill, like in the Vuelta last year. Two big favorites went out of the race. Both fan groups are the same side of the coin in regards to the respective riders. The fact is Roglic was losing to Evenepoel in 2022 and only gained time after Evenepoel crashed and had the flat. Yet having a crash is disregarded for Evenepoel when Roglic crashes it’s always brought up for poor performances that occurred on top of saying Evenepoel faked a flat tire to not lose more time. Just like Evenepoel was faking an illness this year. Rolgic wasn’t running away with the Giro like in 2021 Vuelta, he was struggling and didn’t show up until the MTT.

How do you think the roles would have played out if Roglic was in that position of going against 3 as or stronger riders all on the same team and around you in GC while their team is head and shoulders above the rest and yours?

Evenepoel cracked after multiple stages of worrying about two and then three riders all on Jumbo and instead of riding on to save a top 10 gave up so he could go for stages. Now did he underestimate two of the three riders, yes he very much did. He at the start was only worried about Vinge and ended getting worked over by Roglic and Kuss. Something I don’t think Roglic would have walked into per se due to the 2019 Giro.

Pog cracked after attacking every chance he got, responding to Jumbo’s two leaders, and showboating. Then he cracked this year from his poor prep and attempting to go blow for blow with Vinge.

On top of Evenepoel being more focused on Worlds and preparing for the WTT and then having to change his training from the flats to the mountains while losing weight to ride a race he wasn’t planning on doing. Many bring up Roglic potentially not planning on riding the Vuelta in some of his wins but either neglect or forget to mention that he was still training for a GT ride, not one day races and a long, flat TT. If the scenarios were reversed and Roglic had Evenepoel’s prep, we never would have heard the end of it still. Just for a different rider.

So it can be unfair adding in the poor prep and mental aspect and there goes Evenepoel riding out the back.
While you make some strong points, I don’t think you can just reverse roles here. You can’t say Roglic is just as lucky if he wins while Remco DNFs as Remco is if the opposite happens. Because Roglic is, for the time being, a better GC racer. Proven by his palmares and confirmed by his performance against Remco this season where he won every race against him so far. Sure, a win here and there could be a coincidence, but 100% success rate isn’t.

That’s why Remco is luckier if Roglic DNFs than the other way around.

The other point you are making I don’t agree with, is the following:
“Yet having a crash is disregarded for Evenepoel when Roglic crashes it’s always brought up for poor performances that occurred on top of saying Evenepoel faked a flat tire to not lose more time”
I think it depends on who you are asking. Of course, Roglic fans will look for excuses for Roglic while trying to dismiss legitimate reasons for Remco’s bad performance. But take a step into Remco thread and it’s just the other way around. Like you said, the laws apply to every rider bar Masnada… I don’t consider Remco being any more of a victim of biased fans as anyone else.

Regarding Remco being toyed by TJV. It’s true, of course he had a hard job. However I would expect a better damage limitation from his side if he is to become a consistent GT front-runner. It’s part of the game where he lacks the most and ironically, so does Pog, to be honest…
 
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If you won all, hard for it to be just luck. Although on multiple occasions one could say some luck and beyond prevented from Rogla winning even more.

I know, i know, what about the Tour then? We are getting there, be patient. That is on why it is called a cherry on the top. You can't put it on top, before you have the cake.
 
There could still be a plot-twist. Bora boss tomorrow "I'd like to deny any rumours regarding Primoz's future in our team. We had negotiations but Primoz chose ski-jumping at the end"

Oh, I'd love to see Primoz (with his muscular legs) kicking assess of those anorectics. Then again, laws of physics probably disagree.

Not ski-jumping, football! He's signed for Inter Milan:

View: https://twitter.com/CyclingLegend_/status/1709928440454086857


Anything Evenepoel can do... Rogla can do better eh.
 
And since he got the lead he was a GC threat due to his lead and strength of his two teammates. How do you think Roglic would have done with the positions swapped and getting bullied by three as or stronger riders with a far stronger team than him?


Right, which is due to Jumbo having two GC leaders plus his previous attacks and showboating. Evenepoel had to worry about two and then three of them. Who all showed to be the strongest in the race, that’s extremely stressful.



If the roles were reversed and it was Roglic who went out with Covid (and Hart with injury) and Evenepoel won all we would hear is how Evenepoel was lucky Roglic became ill, like in the Vuelta last year. Two big favorites went out of the race. Both fan groups are the same side of the coin in regards to the respective riders. The fact is Roglic was losing to Evenepoel in 2022 and only gained time after Evenepoel crashed and had the flat. Yet having a crash is disregarded for Evenepoel when Roglic crashes it’s always brought up for poor performances that occurred on top of saying Evenepoel faked a flat tire to not lose more time. Just like Evenepoel was faking an illness this year. Rolgic wasn’t running away with the Giro like in 2021 Vuelta, he was struggling and didn’t show up until the MTT.

How do you think the roles would have played out if Roglic was in that position of going against 3 as or stronger riders all on the same team and around you in GC while their team is head and shoulders above the rest and yours?

Evenepoel cracked after multiple stages of worrying about two and then three riders all on Jumbo and instead of riding on to save a top 10 gave up so he could go for stages. Now did he underestimate two of the three riders, yes he very much did. He at the start was only worried about Vinge and ended getting worked over by Roglic and Kuss. Something I don’t think Roglic would have walked into per se due to the 2019 Giro.

Pog cracked after attacking every chance he got, responding to Jumbo’s two leaders, and showboating. Then he cracked this year from his poor prep and attempting to go blow for blow with Vinge.

On top of Evenepoel being more focused on Worlds and preparing for the WTT and then having to change his training from the flats to the mountains while losing weight to ride a race he wasn’t planning on doing. Many bring up Roglic potentially not planning on riding the Vuelta in some of his wins but either neglect or forget to mention that he was still training for a GT ride, not one day races and a long, flat TT. If the scenarios were reversed and Roglic had Evenepoel’s prep, we never would have heard the end of it still. Just for a different rider.

So it can be unfair adding in the poor prep and mental aspect and there goes Evenepoel riding out the back.
So you are saying Remco was unlucky Kuss was too strong for him. Ayuso was unlucky too, he could've a podium spot.
 
While you make some strong points, I don’t think you can just reverse roles here. You can’t say Roglic is just as lucky if he wins while Remco DNFs as Remco is if the opposite happens. Because Roglic is, for the time being, a better GC racer. Proven by his palmares and confirmed by his performance against Remco this season where he won every race against him so far. Sure, a win here and there could be a coincidence, but 100% success rate isn’t.

That’s why Remco is luckier if Roglic DNFs than the other way around.

The other point you are making I don’t agree with, is the following:
“Yet having a crash is disregarded for Evenepoel when Roglic crashes it’s always brought up for poor performances that occurred on top of saying Evenepoel faked a flat tire to not lose more time”
I think it depends on who you are asking. Of course, Roglic fans will look for excuses for Roglic while trying to dismiss legitimate reasons for Remco’s bad performance. But take a step into Remco thread and it’s just the other way around. Like you said, the laws apply to every rider bar Masnada… I don’t consider Remco being any more of a victim of biased fans as anyone else.

Regarding Remco being toyed by TJV. It’s true, of course he had a hard job. However I would expect a better damage limitation from his side if he is to become a consistent GT front-runner. It’s part of the game where he lacks the most and ironically, so does Pog, to be honest…
Yes Roglic is and has the better wins but like Roglic was up and coming in 2017 and 2018 being hyped more and more, so is Evenepoel. Of course the hype happened far sooner in Evenepoel’s care compared to Roglic and any other rider bar maybe Pog.

I know how the Evenepoel thread is, that’s why I said they’re the same side of the coin. It happens on both sides of; this is why they didn’t win, they could have won if they competed or this didn’t happen, etc. only difference is one riders hype fever pitch started way before the others. Which I understand both sides being annoying with the other, the hype and ridicule by some for both riders gets tiresome at times. Me personally, I’ve become more of a Evenepoel fan as time went on and Roglic went out of favor for me personally after the Wright situation as he’s taken up a Patrick Mahomes and KC Chiefs role to me but I can still appreciate when he wins.

I hoped he rose better as well but we can’t discount the prep element. If next year he has these same issues occur then I’d agree as well that he needs the right circumstances to be competitive to win. Till then I think it’s premature when he’s grown better each year, though not at the rate some hoped for.

So you are saying Remco was unlucky Kuss was too strong for him. Ayuso was unlucky too, he could've a podium spot.
I’m saying Evenepoel was one of the three favorites, other two being Roglic and Vinge, and Kuss gaining time and holding himself in the TT made it three. Kuss surprised the majority of us on how strong he was. Ayuso is unlucky in that part, Kuss wouldn’t have gained the time most likely if Evenepoel didn’t make it know how much they wanted to get rid of the jersey due to a weak team but that’s hypothetical. Ayuso was also lucky though Almeida got sick as he would have finished around Ayuso and could have taken third. Evenepoel before the race I thought could win as I underestimated just how strong Roglic and Vinge would be, after the fact I think fifth would have been feasible for Evenepoel.
 
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I mean, if you have two riders equally strong, but one is higher ranked in the team hierarchy, then yes, he should be given the green light to win (or finish higher in this case).

Vingegaard is the future of Visma, and he's hyper competitive, just like any great athlete. I don't see anything controversial about how this played out, except I bet that Roglic attacking on Angliru was NOT something Plugge wanted to see. Luckily both Vingegaard and Kuss could follow.

I still believe Roglic's fate was sealed when Vingegaard was announced for the Vuelta. almost no matter how it played out.
 
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So now Niermann is the enemy... Slovenian media (and Roglic fans) need to get over themselves. Yes, he was there for both of Vingegaard's Tour wins, but also for a lot of the races Roglic won. So I don't know what that has to do with anything.

So is Jonas coach Van Dongen or is he the one moving with Rogla?

So the culprit is Rasmussen (yeah I'm joking). Winning with a Dane to avenge former teammate against Theo De Roij. 🤫🤣🤣🤣
Van Dongen is a DS (or race coach as Jumbo call it). He's not a trainer. Vingegaard's trainer is Tim Heemskerk.
 
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