Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Rackham]

I could speculate here but I could wager Bora's decision to expediate the decision & sign Rog yesterday (& announce today before Lombardia) was perhaps because they heard some rumors about the merger collapsing.

It would have been sh*tty if Jumbo had changed their mind before anything was properly signed (that's if the rumor about Bora paying a compensation fee for his contract termination is true).

There's been situations in sport where certain deals have collapsed due to unexpected changes, i.e. which in this case is the fact Jumbo without the merger is weakened compared to this season. For example they certainly won't win all 3 GT's next year. They just can't with their current line-up.

Plugge might have been tempted to pull the plug on the deal.

Bora is now a serious GT threat (for 2024)!

This is true. Bora in 2024 will have a better team to support Rog than he's had in most of his GT's at Jumbo (definitely the victorious ones). It's really only been the 2022 & 2023 TdF's where Jumbo has emerged as an invincible armada. But at the Giro (which Rog won), it was a C-team.

 

[Miha81]

God forbid if you win TdF two times with Vingegaard.

Vuelta was a shitshow. Something was bound to happen, and it happened. Thats that.

It could be best thing that happened to Rogla. Otherwise he would be kept on "shared leadership" promise for seasons to come. Now he can try to reach his dreams at 2024 TDF. Won't be easy though.

 

[Gigs_98]

I would like to know what the internal discussions during the Vuelta looked like so badly. There was always this narrative of Roglic getting shafted by the team because the three leaders weren't allowed to race each other when he was clearly stronger than Kuss. But I don't think that was the big problem. The big problem for Roglic was the team allowing Vingegaard to attack and overtake him in gc, but once the roles of Roglic and Vingegaard were reversed they didn't allow Roglic to do the same.

It's very easy to frame this as the team prioritizing Vingegaard and there might be some truth to that. But at the same time I felt I could completely understand JV's tactics all the way through with the exception of the Angliru where I feel like the team intern power struggle came to the surface. If you have three guys high in the gc, with one in the lead and one being unbeatable in the sprint then of course the third guy is the one you send on attacks. That's just common sense. And they kept letting Vingegaard attack because at the time the gap to the rest wasn't that huge yet. Only when everyone bar Landa had been dropped by the Jumbo boys on the Angliru it became unnecessary to keep attacking each other, but this precisely coincided with Roglic's "turn" to do the attacking. It made sense why this was the point the team said, "let's give the win to Sepp", but to Roglic it must have been a huge gut punch and if this was what caused a fallout I can kind of understand why. But I don't think the team was really favoring Vingegaard and Kuss here. I think they would have acted the same way with roles reversed.

 

[theyoungest]

This is true. Bora in 2024 will have a better team to support Rog than he's had in most of his GT's at Jumbo (definitely the victorious ones). It's really only been the 2022 & 2023 TdF's where Jumbo has emerged as an invincible armada. But at the Giro (which Rog won), it was a C-team.

It was a C-team... but still the second strongest team in the race. Also hardly Jumbo's fault, with covid and injuries causing all these riders to be replaced. And Roglic still had the best domestique that won him the race. He can only hope that at Bora someone will step up to fulfill that role.

 

[pastronef]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1710295936063140308

View: https://twitter.com/faustonef/status/1710295936063140308

 

[Rackham]

It was a C-team... but still the second strongest team in the race. Also hardly Jumbo's fault, with covid and injuries causing all these riders to be replaced. And Roglic still had the best domestique that won him the race. He can only hope that at Bora someone will step up to fulfill that role.

Lennard Kämna is one of my favorite riders. I think he'll be grand in the TdF for Rog. Hindley is also a really good guy (& great rider) who'll do what's necessary.

I think Bora have a fantastic looking mountain + middle mountain set-up, i.e. which could be all Rog needs because he likes a controlled tempo on the climbs (even Bahrain helped with that on the Angliru in spite of themselves).

 

[hfer07]

Congrats to Primoz for his new contract with BORA.
great move to secure the success of his remining career & retirement

 

[Faserr]

There circulated the rumour that one GC rider would be really happy to ride for Roglic. I guess it could be Hindley. Hindley could be happy in the Adam Yates TDF 2023 role.

 

[Gigs_98]

There circulated the rumour that one GC rider would be really happy to ride for Roglic. I guess it could be Hindley. Hindley could be happy in the Adam Yates TDF 2023 role.

Great news. Now they only need to find their Pogacar.

 

[Rackham]

Interesting interview with Ralph Denk: https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/r...-bora-hansgrohe-nu-onze-droom-verwezenlijken/

A few points: Rog wasn't particularly concerned about taking any riders with him from Jumbo, Bora don't yet have a contract with his coach Marc Lamberts (but they'll communicate if/when they do), Bora's current leaders were asked about the possible arrival of Rog & they were pretty positive about it (because they recognize it makes the team stronger). He praised Vlasov, Kämna & Hindley in particular for what they've done for the team (so we can assume those guys were positive about Rog coming in as well). Denk also says his dream is to win the Tour de France. As 100% owner of the team, that's his ambition.

So yeah, based on his comments, I expect Bora to throw everything at the Tour next summer with a team effort. Roglič will be the tip of the spear.

 

[bNator]

The big problem for Roglic was the team allowing Vingegaard to attack and overtake him in gc, but once the roles of Roglic and Vingegaard were reversed they didn't allow Roglic to do the same.

I share your view about that. In my opinion, that's why he sounded so contradictive when he said he doesn't agree with the decision to freeze the positions and he wished Kuss to win. All he cared about IMO was finishing ahead of Vinge - he just couldn't say it out loud.

 

[acm]

Interesting interview with Ralph Denk: https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/r...-bora-hansgrohe-nu-onze-droom-verwezenlijken/

A few points: Rog wasn't particularly concerned about taking any riders with him from Jumbo, Bora don't yet have a contract with his coach Marc Lamberts (but they'll communicate if/when they do), Bora's current leaders were asked about the possible arrival of Rog & they were pretty positive about it (because they recognize it makes the team stronger). He praised Vlasov, Kämna & Hindley in particular for what they've done for the team (so we can assume those guys were positive about Rog coming in as well). Denk also says his dream is to win the Tour de France. As 100% owner of the team, that's his ambition.

So yeah, based on his comments, I expect Bora to throw everything at the Tour next summer with a team effort. Roglič will be the tip of the spear.

One of Vlasov/Hindley/Cian to the Giro, the other two and Rogla+Martinez to the TdF. Add Kämna and that's a hell of a team.

 

[shadowrider]

Still, a irritated Roglic (at how the teamstrategy unfolded) would not have changed teams without the mergertalks. Bora itself confirmed today that the mergertalks were the reason the negotations started between Bora and Roglic. Bora was aware of the mergernegotations during the Vuelta (yes !). The last week of the Vuelta they noticed the irritation of Roglic, forced "not to attack". So they realised that was a opportunity to approach Roglic to convince him to leave his team. So, the main reason Roglic left his team, was the merger.

 

[bNator]

Still, an irritated Roglic (at how the teamstrategy unfolded) would not have changed teams without the mergertalks. Bora itself confirmed today that the mergertalks were the reason the negotations started between Bora and Roglic. Bora was aware of the mergernegotations during the Vuelta (yes !). The last week of the Vuelta they noticed the irritation of Roglic, forced "not to attack". So they realised that was an opportunity to approach Roglic to convince him to leave his team. So, the main reason Roglic left his team, was the merger.

Yes, that would make Roglic look a bit silly, wouldn’t it? You’d like that, wouldn’t you? 😉

 

[Rackham]

Roglič changed teams because he wanted a fair shot at the Tour de France. Not with the certainty of winning it, no (because there can be no assurances in this sport), what he really wants is to show what he can do best. It's what motivates him (he's said this repeatedly). He's always been very honest about winning stuff he's never won before & saying it's a motivation. The Tour is obviously the big one. He certainly was never going to be super excited at the prospect of a Giro-Vuelta season for life (especially when he's not even the team's priority in one of those GT's).

For a myriad of reasons (human, sporting & business all rolled into one), the decision was made to leave. Any one of those reasons in isolation would have been enough for any rider to move teams (breakdown in relationships? Check. Sporting decision for sole leadership at the Tour? Check. Better contract? Check). So it all came together & Rog has now gone to the next best Jumbo-light team out there, i.e. a team not too dissimilar from what Jumbo was in 2019.

It's also a southern German team with training facilities in Austria & as such, it's pretty much a quasi regional team for him (Denk mentioned this proximity to Slovenia as one of the many small details about Bora which amounted to one big decision).

As far as the merger is concerned, I'd say that might have weighed more heavily on Plugge's decision to accept the transfer request rather than Rog's own choice. The prospect of that merger might have made his boss open to something he'd sworn in the media wasn't going to happen (i.e. transferring his 'king').

 

[Rackham]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1710359777170092167

View: https://twitter.com/StatsOnCycling/status/1710359777170092167

 

[Red Rick]

I would like to know what the internal discussions during the Vuelta looked like so badly. There was always this narrative of Roglic getting shafted by the team because the three leaders weren't allowed to race each other when he was clearly stronger than Kuss. But I don't think that was the big problem. The big problem for Roglic was the team allowing Vingegaard to attack and overtake him in gc, but once the roles of Roglic and Vingegaard were reversed they didn't allow Roglic to do the same.

It's very easy to frame this as the team prioritizing Vingegaard and there might be some truth to that. But at the same time I felt I could completely understand JV's tactics all the way through with the exception of the Angliru where I feel like the team intern power struggle came to the surface. If you have three guys high in the gc, with one in the lead and one being unbeatable in the sprint then of course the third guy is the one you send on attacks. That's just common sense. And they kept letting Vingegaard attack because at the time the gap to the rest wasn't that huge yet. Only when everyone bar Landa had been dropped by the Jumbo boys on the Angliru it became unnecessary to keep attacking each other, but this precisely coincided with Roglic's "turn" to do the attacking. It made sense why this was the point the team said, "let's give the win to Sepp", but to Roglic it must have been a huge gut punch and if this was what caused a fallout I can kind of understand why. But I don't think the team was really favoring Vingegaard and Kuss here. I think they would have acted the same way with roles reversed.

Tourmalet is fine. After Tourmalet I think DS' should have really considered 1-2-3 was very likely so any true undercutting attacks shouldn't have been okayed. Stage 16 was a much bigger fuckup than Angliru.

 

[RobertCrawley]

I wish Rog had signed with Ineos because they have a bigger budget and better training capabilities. But I hope he really blossoms at Bora and gives Jonas and Pog a run for their money in the big races. He's got the power, but not always the endurance and bike-handling ability as the Big Two. I'd also like to see Rog have some fun with cyclocross to improve his skills on the bike because he always finds a way to fall down one or twice in big races. Anyway, best of luck to him!

 

[Berniece]

I wish Rog had signed with Ineos because they have a bigger budget and better training capabilities.

I wonder, he's been at JV for 7-8 years. He knows through and through how they work and train. Can't he just copy/paste the training plan for the Vuelta of this year to get in shape for TDF?

 

[Lequack]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1710314097114218661

View: https://twitter.com/merijnzeeman/status/1710314097114218661?s=20

 

[bNator]

I wonder, he's been at JV for 7-8 years. He knows through and through how they work and train. Can't he just copy/paste the training plan for the Vuelta of this year to get in shape for TDF?

Like Wout recently put it (when talking about his change of coach): You know what to do and the first couple of months you’ll be fine but sooner or later, you’ll start having doubts and that’s when you’ll need your coach to adapt your training program.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Big day ahead tomorrow. A good night's sleep and then to dream with eyes open, just one more for the team.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znWCBpWFYPU


He will not cry, so I cry for him.

 

[Blanco]

I mean, if you have two riders equally strong, but one is higher ranked in the team hierarchy, then yes, he should be given the green light to win (or finish higher in this case).

Vingegaard is the future of Visma, and he's hyper competitive, just like any great athlete. I don't see anything controversial about how this played out, except I bet that Roglic attacking on Angliru was NOT something Plugge wanted to see. Luckily both Vingegaard and Kuss could follow.

I still believe Roglic's fate was sealed when Vingegaard was announced for the Vuelta. almost no matter how it played out.

You're basically right,except one minor detail, Roglic played by the book (aka the team orders) the whole Vuelta, until Angliru, opposite to Vingegaard who took the time whenever he could, despite the previous plans (I mean mostly to stage 16), and it seems to me (and to Roglic too), that Grischa Niermann was deeply involved in all of this.
So, if you ask me, the main reason of Roglic departure from Jumbo Visma is that he felt betrayed by his own team. He didn't mind Kuss winning it , but he didn't wanted to Vinge win it with dirty moves, hence why he made that little show on Angliru. Then Zeeman and Plugge stepped in.

 

[Carols]

Congrats Primoz for taking the risk of starting again with a new team. You and TJV made a winning combination but it was time to move on so you could work at filling in the very few holes in your palmares. As you've said over and over you just want the chance to see what you can do. Hopefully everything clicks at Bora and you've found and new home with good mates to give us good racing!

I always follow and root for riders not teams. So TJV is no longer my favorite team when you finish the race tomorrow. I'll have to go and learn more about Bora. Primoz, Thank You for not going to Ineos you'd have given me a real Problem!!!!!

 

[danielovichdk2]

So we have TJV, Bora and Roglic in this story. I understand why this is a loss for TJV. They are losing the guy who won the most races for them and would possibly continue to win. But on the other hand, he could be getting less motivated if they hadn't let him go as well, so him continuing to perform in TJV is not a given. And there may be more cohesion now that Jonas will have no opposition from within the team. It's difficult to predict the consequences, but it's not all bad for them either. That's probably why they let him go, too...

But more than that - why would it be a loss for Bora? They are getting 3rd best GC rider in their ranks. They're getting more exposure and most likely, a lot more wins than now. I also fail to see why this would be a loss for Roglic. Yes, maybe the team is not as good as TJV but if he is the true leader, that's a good compensation for him. A new challenge, better motivation, (allegedly) more money... what's not to like?

Your take is fair.

Bora will not win a GT with Roglic. Loss.
Roglic will end his career without winning another GT. Loss.
JV lost a great athlete that could have won another GT with that team. Loss.

Sums it up i think.

Roglic is done.