Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Ripper]

Assuming Roglic was riding against Pogacar as if Pog didn't lose any time in the crosswinds and assuming Pog didn't lose 1'21", Roglic loses this Tour with 2'20" to Pog. That's massive.

That is what I've noted in, erm, another thread

 

[LeoMontero]

Didnt read all the coments, but he lost the tour because he didnt attack one sinlge time, but in the last 500 mts, that he won only the bonus secs. and one time against Pog only. When he was better and had the best team, like in Loze, he didnt take the advantage, he waited and sit, and only respond to Lopez late. He should attack and win that stage. Maybe he was confort because Pog lost time in crosswinds ( that BTW this was not Pog fault ).
You cant win if you dont attack, you can at best tie.

 

[md1975]

As for a bike change during the TT: gear choice and climbing position are paramount for the climbing part. Roglic's whole spin and posture would be different than what he'd want on the TT bike. Not much risk there, really.

Had a bad swap and it didn't totally cost him the win but it did indeed have a part in it.

 

[md1975]

On the stages that JV had 3+ riders at the front on climbs he should have attacked. He may not have gotten away as well as TP was riding... but he should have tried. Someone above said you can't win if you don't attack and most of the time it's true. In this case it was very much true and it cost him. He will learn from it but it is sad. I hope he recovers and comes back next year with a better plan. Plus, Froome, Niro (with better luck I hope), Brenal maybe GT will be there as well as the amazing VP (rumor is he is not doing the TdF till 2022 however). So it is going to be a very stacked race.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So, my wish for Roglic next year is that if he takes the lead in any GT, that he takes it on the last possible day.
For him, because it will relieve him a bit of the pressure.
For us, because he's terrible at giving interviews.

 

[Tonton]

Roglic did nothing wrong. JV did. They believed that they were the new Sky. Everybody said so. It was going to be a two-team battle. Ineos and Bernal were the targets. When Pog lost time, they slept on the job and he took some back. Roglic did what he had to do according to that plan. The jury is out on Roglic week 3. But he gave everything. I rode competitively at a much smaller level. I saw his face after the finish. Respect. He gave everything. And idiots will attack his mental fortitude, blah, blah, blah. We all know so much.

 

[Cookster15]

Roglic did nothing wrong. JV did. They believed that they were the new Sky. Everybody said so. It was going to be a two-team battle. Ineos and Bernal were the targets. When Pog lost time, they slept on the job and he took some back. Roglic did what he had to do according to that plan. The jury is out on Roglic week 3. But he gave everything. I rode competitively at a much smaller level. I saw his face after the finish. Respect. He gave everything. And idiots will attack his mental fortitude, blah, blah, blah. We all know so much.

Yes we all thought JV were the new Sky. And they were until stage 20.

I too think Roglic showed class in his reaction after the finish. I am glad you also remember how you felt when you raced sometimes many in this forum seem to forget. Yes its entertainment but they don't ride like those clowns in WWF. They ride to win based upon what they are physically capable of mixed with courage.

I can't fault Primoz's courage, he rode to what he thought was his strengths, but Pogacar was incredible. For sure it wasn't his best performance but he still finished 5th on the stage and only 35 secs down on Dumo.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Assuming Roglic was riding against Pogacar as if Pog didn't lose any time in the crosswinds and assuming Pog didn't lose 1'21", Roglic loses this Tour with 2'20" to Pog. That's massive.

Pretty much this.

In the end it probably wouldn't have mattered too much if Jumbo had ridden differently. And where could they have realistically gained more time? Perhaps if they ride hard on stage 6 they gain 20 seconds (including bonuses). That still isn't going to make the necessary difference. I very much doubt that Roglic could have gone with Pogacar up the Perysourde, but also, it is easy to say this in hindsight.

Primoz has proved that he can ride the three weeks, but it seems obvious that the third week is not a strength. Maybe this would be a very different result (and next year could be a different result) if the ITT was placed in the first week? But who knows what the organisers will do re ITT's. Maybe after Pogacar's performance today, there will not even be a single TT in 2021?

Personally I don't really think that it is in Primoz's skillset to attack from long range on a mountain, though I would be interested to hear the opinions of others on this, as to physical capability vs. mindset.

Stage 20 is all extremely disappointing for Roglic (though I don't think he had a particularly bad day, 5th on the stage), but on the bright side, he now has podiumed all 3 grand tours. What a great rider. And shows good sportsmanship too.

 

[movingtarget]

Roglic did nothing wrong. JV did. They believed that they were the new Sky. Everybody said so. It was going to be a two-team battle. Ineos and Bernal were the targets. When Pog lost time, they slept on the job and he took some back. Roglic did what he had to do according to that plan. The jury is out on Roglic week 3. But he gave everything. I rode competitively at a much smaller level. I saw his face after the finish. Respect. He gave everything. And idiots will attack his mental fortitude, blah, blah, blah. We all know so much.

Roglic has never been that aggressive in the mountains. He usually relies on picking up time bonuses and time on his rivals in the TT. Froome is more or was more aggressive than Roglic. Would Roglic attack in the crosswinds or on a descent or try a long attack ? I see nothing wrong with the Jumbo tactics they just ran into a better TT performance on the day and maybe Roglic's form was beginning to tail off. I thought he would hang on for the win as it was Pogacar himself that showed a few cracks in the armor in the final mountain stages. Porte also beat Roglic in the TT which is rare but Porte's climbing was solid throughout and he had the second best time up the climbing part of the TT. I think Roglic just had an off day by his standards. Even though Pogacar and Roglic finished on the podium in the Vuelta maybe Pogacar just needed that three week experience to improve. Maybe the win by Roglic in the Vuelta was a bit overrated. Valverde finished on the podium in the Vuelta and could only manage 11th in the Tour...............

 

[Oldermanish]

Roglic has never been that aggressive in the mountains. He usually relies on picking up time bonuses and time on his rivals in the TT. Froome is more or was more aggressive than Roglic. Would Roglic attack in the crosswinds or on a descent or try a long attack ? I see nothing wrong with the Jumbo tactics they just ran into a better TT performance on the day and maybe Roglic's form was beginning to tail off. I thought he would hang on for the win as it was Pogacar himself that showed a few cracks in the armor in the final mountain stages. Porte also beat Roglic in the TT which is rare but Porte's climbing was solid throughout and he had the second best time up the climbing part of the TT. I think Roglic just had an off day by his standards. Even though Pogacar and Roglic finished on the podium in the Vuelta maybe Pogacar just needed that three week experience to improve. Maybe the win by Roglic in the Vuelta was a bit overrated. Valverde finished on the podium in the Vuelta and could only manage 11th in the Tour...............

You are hitting he key points. I think today's main point was Roglic had a bad day at the wrong f*cking time. Tadej may have been benefitting from Family and Friends setup by JV for several weeks and they underestimated his reserves. He was fresher than anyone knew for long efforts and let loose today? Mix the two and you get a serious change. Very serious change.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Sure, he didn’t have an amazing day, but even I, who thought he’d win, thought he’d win by max 30 seconds. Like many, I assumed Roglics form would translate to the best ITT but Dumoulins incredible TT strength would have him right there as well, along with Wout. Taking Pogacar out of it, would folks really think it was crazy that Roglic got 4th, :30 behind Dumoulin and :15 behind Wout? The reality is that Pogacar smashed that TT like only one person, Wiggins, a TT specialist who was seasoned and did not perform like Pog in the climbs, has in recent history. Even there, Wiggins won by 1:16. Pogacar won by 1:21 - and he was competing against the equivalent of Wiggins in Roglic, Dumoulin, and Wout.

Contador, Froome, Nibali, even Lance, did not crush the TT specialists and the other GC riders like this, as far as I know. Truly shocking. And nothing for Roglic to hang his head over. He lost out to the best TT performance in a GT in decades. That’s tough, but it doesn’t mean Roglic cracked under pressure or fell apart. He gave it his all, he performed wel - not spectacularly, but well - and he got crushed by a kid with no track record to indicate this was in him. It is what it is.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Sure, he didn’t have an amazing day, but even I, who thought he’d win, thought he’d win by max 30 seconds. Like many, I assumed Roglics form would translate to the best ITT but Dumoulins incredible TT strength would have him right there as well, along with Wout. Taking Pogacar out of it, would folks really think it was crazy that Roglic got 4th, :30 behind Dumoulin and :15 behind Wout? The reality is that Pogacar smashed that TT like only one person, Wiggins, a TT specialist who was seasoned and did not perform like Pog in the climbs, has in recent history. Even there, Wiggins won by 1:16. Pogacar won by 1:21 - and he was competing against the equivalent of Wiggins in Roglic, Dumoulin, and Wout.

Contador, Froome, Nibali, even Lance, did not crush the TT specialists and the other GC riders like this, as far as I know. Truly shocking. And nothing for Roglic to hang his head over. He lost out to the best TT performance in a GT in decades. That’s tough, but it doesn’t mean Roglic cracked under pressure or fell apart. He gave it his all, he performed wel - not spectacularly, but well - and he got crushed by a kid with no track record to indicate this was in him. It is what it is.

Lance had won multipe TdF ITT with over a minute to 2nd place.

 

[Oldermanish]

Lance had won multipe TdF ITT with over a minute to 2nd place.

Yesssssss. We should probably keep history current but you point is true for that scenario.

 

[Red Rick]

That is what I've noted in, erm, another thread

But he should have attacked more.

 

[geisterhome]

Lance had won multipe TdF ITT with over a minute to 2nd place.

Lance lost 1:36(?) to Ullrich in a TT in 2003.

 

[Breezy1985]

a kid with no track record to indicate this was in him.

Didnt Pog already beat Rog in a TT this year ?

 

[ppanther92]

Didnt read all the coments, but he lost the tour because he didnt attack one sinlge time, but in the last 500 mts, that he won only the bonus secs. and one time against Pog only. When he was better and had the best team, like in Loze, he didnt take the advantage, he waited and sit, and only respond to Lopez late. He should attack and win that stage. Maybe he was confort because Pog lost time in crosswinds ( that BTW this was not Pog fault ).
You cant win if you dont attack, you can at best tie.

I am not 100% convinced that he could have gained enough on Pogacar but I agree that he and JV were too passive. They tried to copy Sky or US Postal with their dominance and controlled approach but what they missed was the crucial part - coming strong into the Tour and crushing everyone in the first MTF. Armstrong did this, Froome did this, even Wighins did this. JV only ever had a very small time gap and still only looked to preserve it.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Yesssssss. We should probably keep history current but you point is true for that scenario.

He's the one who brought Armstrong up in regards to Pogacar's TT.

 

[IndianCyclist]

I think we can say for sure that He does not perform to expectations in the last TT as seen from 2018 TDF, 2019 Giro and 2020 TDF. Maybe the team should reconsider extension of the comfortable gap to 2mins but again the amount of effort required for that may eventually crack him in the end. So its a tradeoff

 

[SHAD0W93]

Lance lost 1:36(?) to Ullrich in a TT in 2003.

The one time he lost to him in a TT if I remember correctly out of at least 10.

 

[geisterhome]

The one time he lost to him in a TT if I remember correctly out of at least 10.

I think he also lost few seconds in the prolog the same year.

 

[SafeBet]

I am not 100% convinced that he could have gained enough on Pogacar but I agree that he and JV were too passive. They tried to copy Sky or US Postal with their dominance and controlled approach but what they missed was the crucial part - coming strong into the Tour and crushing everyone in the first MTF. Armstrong did this, Froome did this, even Wighins did this.

Wiggins never crushed anyone in a MTF.
He was actually outsprinted by his teammate on the very first MTF in 2012 (PdBF).

But Wiggins had a lot more TT kms to work with that year and he was a more reliable third week time trialler than Roglic.

 

[Red Rick]

Wiggins never crushed anyone in a MTF.
He was actually outsprinted by his teammates on the very first MTF in 2012 (PdBF).

But Wiggins had a lot more TT kms to work with that year and he was a more reliable third week time trialler than Roglic.

Yeah it's hard to compare, both routes were jokes in opposite directions.

 

[Bolder]

You are hitting he key points. I think today's main point was Roglic had a bad day at the wrong f*cking time.

Roglic has had great success by racing a certain way. After nearly winning the Giro and winning the Vuelta by riding relatively conservatively, why would he change for the biggest GT of them all, with the strongest team by far?

To say he should have done this or that differently...As noted repeatedly, if you'd told TJV before the Tour that he'd have nearly a minute in hand for the ITT -- and that he'd finish the ITT just 35 seconds behind TD and WvA, they would have seen that as validation for their tactics. Very, very few people saw Pogacar as being that strong.

I have no way of knowing this but I suspect the pressure got to Primoz. He probably didn't sleep well, woke up a bit nervous/agitated, had bad sensations but hoped it would pass. OTOH Pogacar just let it rip, knowing that there was no way he'd lose 2nd.

I"m sure JV will do a thorough post mortem, but I think they rode too hard when they didn't need to. There were a few points where Gesink/Martin/Van Aert were pedal to the metal and I think their climbers paid for it, Bennett in particular but also Roglic. They could have been more strategic in their efforts. One thing that USPS and Sky would do is use their superdoms to launch Armstrong or Froome to attack. We didn't really see that from Jumbo -- their strategy just seemed to be more brute force, but the problem is that Pogacar -- and even Porte and Lopez, to a point, were able to hang on until so close to the stage finish that Roglic could only take bonus seconds may 10-20 seconds here and there.

 

[Salvarani]

I think the key moments are that JV should have pushed on even more on the cross-wind stage. They had riders in that group. Van Aert has been massive but maybe shouldnt have been allowed so much freedom, in hindsight. Him on the front of that group. It might have been over 2 minutes Pog and Porte lost that day. Instead of letting him sit in wheels and going for the stage that day. It looked brilliant that day. Won the stage and took time on a couple of rivals. I bet now they would trade that win, for another minute gained that day.

Stage 8. Roglic should have followed Pog, if he had the legs that day. Even if he didnt, here is where they should have realized or starting to think that Bernal and Sky might not be what they should focus the most on. Maybe they did have those talks afterwards, who knows.

I think some people are onto something when they say that there should have been an attack on one of these days. Say what you will about Ineos/Sky, god knows I have, but they always did pick one or two days to really drill it up the last climb and Froome would be on the last guys wheel and accelerate as soon as that guy was done with his job. Favorites would have been dropped before and the acceleration would make the two or three guys left on the wheel crack. Maybe one would be able to follow.

I think they fell in some type of false security in a way. They never really faced any obstacles. Team was going great and controlled the race by the book, as they was able to, having the strongest team. Which I have no problem with, since that is the smartest thing to do. I think they missed the part about really capitalizing on it though.

I dont think Roglic is the one to blame. I think he was being told to not over-extend himself from the car on most stages. Not to go on the offensive side. Just keeping up with what was going on.

"You have the lead, we have the team, we control it, we have the time on our side, everything is going our way and we still have the TT where you are better than the others."

He did what he could yesterday. He was 5th on the stage. He lost a lot of time on the climb, but he was also in panic and desperation by then.

Pog just did something no one thought he could do yesterday. I think most expected a good performance, of course, but not that! I dont know if I could blame anyone for not having the foresight. It is decisions made during the race, that makes it possible.