Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[AmRacer]

@AmRacer

So which one are you? Beavis or Butt-Head? I will take the leftovers.

Beavis, of course Butt-Head.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@AmRacer

Fair enough.

@Berniece

In retrospective Roglič lost his leader position at the Tour soon after the Tour 2020. The last proper attempt IMHO hence was all the way back in 2021, the rest at best riding as a co-leader and once Jonas won, forget about it altogether. Once social media gets involved not much one can do about it. Now it took all the way to Tour 2025, on where Rogla will hopefully be in such position again, as at the Tour 2020, hopefully the approach to the race as a whole managed better. As at Tour 2020 they rode like UAE did at Giro 25, riding it as being rather inexperienced if you ask me.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Confirmed, Rogla has aSLP, whatever that is.

Page 1247 - Teams & Riders - Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

Page 1247 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

forum.cyclingnews.com

 

[Red Rick]

Confirmed, Rogla has aSLP, whatever that is.

Page 1247 - Teams & Riders - Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

Page 1247 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

forum.cyclingnews.com

Antisocial lersonality pissorder?

 

[CyclistAbi]

Antisocial lersonality pissorder?

Journalists love him, though.

 

[Berniece]

In retrospective Roglič lost his leader position at the Tour soon after the Tour 2020. The last proper attempt IMHO hence was all the way back in 2021, the rest at best riding as a co-leader and once Jonas won, forget about it altogether. Once social media gets involved not much one can do about it. Now it took all the way to Tour 2025, on where Rogla will hopefully be in such position again, as at the Tour 2020, hopefully the approach to the race as a whole managed better. As at Tour 2020 they rode like UAE did at Giro 25, riding it as being rather inexperienced if you ask me.

With that logic I would say that Evenepoel has only ever done 1 real proper GT, the Vuelta in 2022. Which I don't btw, it's a ridiculous way to look at things.

 

[CyclistAbi]

With that logic I would say that Evenepoel has only ever done 1 real proper GT, the Vuelta in 2022. Which I don't btw, it's a ridiculous way to look at things.

When did Remco go to a GT as a co-leader and the other team member to be prioritised?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

When did Remco go to a GT as a co-leader and the other team member to be prioritised?

Rogla had a very serious attempt last year. Before he crashed out he was already 2 minutes down in the GC: all before Pogacar (and Vingegaard at PdB) even dropped devastating watt bombs.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Rogla had a very serious attempt last year. Before he crashed out he was already 2 minutes down in the GC: all before Pogacar (and Vingegaard at PdB) even dropped devastating watt bombs.

I mean Rogličes preparation in regards to the Tour was always stellar, one can't blame him for that, circumstances on the other hand were not at all favourable. At Visma Jonas got ahead and was supported as team leader, not Roglič, and last year Bora burned out before it even started, too much desire and lack of experience. Tour 2025 likely to hit a sweet spot again, Rogla detonating his bazooka, couple of rockets stored in the arsenal, the rest managed with a couple of sprays with an uzi, whenever appropriate. Team will be there too, when needed the most, supporting leader. This is somewhat new reality in regards to last couple of Tour editions, something a rider of Rogličes calibre can take seriously again.

 

[Rackham]

This is why I'm not looking forward to the TdF.

I've just read an article in which Vinegegaard is boasting that he literally feels like a "different person" (aka stronger). We've got Pog who's Pog and Evenepoel is apparently also going better than last year.

I dunno guys but with all the optimism in the universe I just think this is a bit of a long shot here. Without divine intervention (like the other guys taking the wrong turn at some point, i.e. something that does happen eh) I feel like it's going to be a tough TdF.

Rog is going to have to be dialled in from minute one, basically, with a monster second week necessary - even just for survival. Any performance like his recent climbing in the Giro (even stage 7 won by Ayuso which happened before Rog's crash on the gravel) will spell game over for Rog's podium chances. And he had a performance like that in last year's Tour (San Luca) which put him in difficulty in GC on stage 2 already.

The thing about Rog that often confounds fans and critics alike is he's totally capable on his day of matching the best and he's also super consistent throughout the season. So yes, on his day I can totally see him dropping Evenepoel. But his baseline for a regular mountain performance in the Tour de France is going to be tested in July, i.e. where on days he doesn't feel super-duper he's going to have to still be in the mix. And no, his 'bad days' aren't always injury or crash related either. Sometimes he just does an ITT or a climb where he blows for whatever reason.

And lord knows it pains me to be a bit of a downer here because I'd love for nothing more than a triumph in Paris. But it's a difficult scenario to imagine.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

This is why I'm not looking forward to the TdF.

I've just read an article in which Vinegegaard is boasting that he literally feels like a "different person" (aka stronger). We've got Pog who's Pog and Evenepoel is apparently also going better than last year.

I dunno guys but with all the optimism in the universe I just think this is a bit of a long shot here. Without divine intervention (like the other guys taking the wrong turn at some point, i.e. something that does happen eh) I feel like it's going to be a tough TdF.

Rog is going to have to be dialled in from minute one, basically, with a monster second week necessary - even just for survival. Any performance like his recent climbing in the Giro (even stage 7 won by Ayuso which happened before Rog's crash on the gravel) will spell game over for Rog's podium chances. And he had a performance like that in last year's Tour (San Luca) which put him in difficulty in GC on stage 2 already.

The thing about Rog that often confounds fans and critics alike is he's totally capable on his day of matching the best and he's also super consistent throughout the season. So yes, on his day I can totally see him dropping Evenepoel. But his baseline for a regular mountain performance in the Tour de France is going to be tested in July, i.e. where on days he doesn't feel super-duper he's going to have to still be in the mix. And no, his 'bad days' aren't always injury or crash related either. Sometimes he just does an ITT or a climb where he blows for whatever reason.

And lord knows it pains me to be a bit of a downer here because I'd love for nothing more than a triumph in Paris. But it's a difficult scenario to imagine.

I think bad things must happen to both Pogacar and Vingegaard for others to have a realistic shot at TdF victory. It can happen but because there are two mutants (instead of just one) it's not likely.

 

[YavorD]

and last year Bora burned out before it even started, too much desire and lack of experience.

I mean, last year Roglic got dropped on probably his favourite climb.
That's hardly Bora's fault. His level, at least early in the Tour wasn't high enough

 

[Extinction]

This is why I'm not looking forward to the TdF.

I've just read an article in which Vinegegaard is boasting that he literally feels like a "different person" (aka stronger). We've got Pog who's Pog and Evenepoel is apparently also going better than last year.

I dunno guys but with all the optimism in the universe I just think this is a bit of a long shot here. Without divine intervention (like the other guys taking the wrong turn at some point, i.e. something that does happen eh) I feel like it's going to be a tough TdF.

Rog is going to have to be dialled in from minute one, basically, with a monster second week necessary - even just for survival. Any performance like his recent climbing in the Giro (even stage 7 won by Ayuso which happened before Rog's crash on the gravel) will spell game over for Rog's podium chances. And he had a performance like that in last year's Tour (San Luca) which put him in difficulty in GC on stage 2 already.

The thing about Rog that often confounds fans and critics alike is he's totally capable on his day of matching the best and he's also super consistent throughout the season. So yes, on his day I can totally see him dropping Evenepoel. But his baseline for a regular mountain performance in the Tour de France is going to be tested in July, i.e. where on days he doesn't feel super-duper he's going to have to still be in the mix. And no, his 'bad days' aren't always injury or crash related either. Sometimes he just does an ITT or a climb where he blows for whatever reason.

And lord knows it pains me to be a bit of a downer here because I'd love for nothing more than a triumph in Paris. But it's a difficult scenario to imagine.

You must consider Rog's age. He isn't getting any better, but can only mountain peak form. By contrast, Pog, Vinge and Remco can get better, so it's an uphill battle, not even considering failing to complete the Giro, which is s hard reboot.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Rackham

So basically what they are saying all of them are flying? Rogla been doing that for years, hence to Rogla it feels the same.

I mean, last year Roglic got dropped on probably his favourite climb.
That's hardly Bora's fault. His level, at least early in the Tour wasn't high enough

It would be Rogličes terrain if the stage would finish on top of San Luca and if the team would deliver him in a good position, to contest for the win. In that case this would be a battle for some prestige, not for the overall. So if Pogi and Jonas feel trigger happy, here it's mostly up to the team, to bring them back, both jackasses. Or at least to limit the losses.

 

[Rackham]

I think bad things must happen to both Pogacar and Vingegaard for others to have a realistic shot at TdF victory. It can happen but because there are two mutants (instead of just one) it's not likely.

I dream of basic things. A win on the Ventoux would be sweet. It's a (long) unipuerto climb so on his day I think it could happen. I don't like the look of the Tourmalet stage though because if Vinge and Pog go nuclear there it'll make the rest of the stage very, very difficult for riders like Rog.

You must consider Rog's age. He isn't getting any better, but can only mountain peak form. By contrast, Pog, Vinge and Remco can get better, so it's an uphill battle, not even considering failing to complete the Giro, which is s hard reboot.

I think there are 3 phases in the Tour for Rog (no reference to a Marvel movie intended here): phase 1 is the first week where he needs to somehow 'survive' versus the tarmac. The road is the enemy in these first 9 stages. Then phase 2 is the climbing stages and mountain ITT in the Pyrenees followed by the Ventoux. That's where he'll see where his legs are versus the others. And then finally if he's somehow survived those two phases and he's somehow still in the mix for something good on the final rest day, then he has to fight for whatever that is.

But the part where I disagree with CyclistAbi here is there are absolutely zero guarantees, assurances or even solid foundations to fall back on in this Tour de France for Roglič. He hasn't even finished this race since 2020. That's the level of challenge we're talking about here. It's huge.

He had a promising TdF 2017 with a great breakaway mountain stage win, then an even better 2018 Tour with another stage win but a very disappointing final ITT (which was most likely equipment related but nevertheless it was a negative note to finish on). Then he skipped 2019 before 2020 ended the way we know. Since then? Disaster every year with a small interlude in 2023 when he didn't race it.

So... I don't see anything worth hyping here. It's literally harder for Rog to win the TdF than it was for Frodo to toss a ring into Mount Doom.

 

[YavorD]

It would be Rogličes terrain if the stage would finish on top of San Luca and if the team would deliver him in a good position, to contest for the win. In that case this would be a battle for some prestige, not for the overall. So if Pogi and Jonas feel trigger happy, here it's mostly up to the team, to bring them back, both jackasses. Or at least to limit the losses

The team to bring them back?
Once Pogacar and Vingegaard attack on San Luca it's up to you to follow if you have the level, not up to the team to bring them.
Roglic didn't have that level. End. Of.

Roglic didn't have the level to stay with Vingegaard on stage 11 as well. Clearly abandoned by the team. He should have had 3 team mates to bring them back.

 

[Rackham]

The team to bring them back?
Once Pogacar and Vingegaard attack on San Luca it's up to you to follow if you have the level, not up to the team to bring them.
Roglic didn't have that level. End. Of.

Roglic didn't have the level to stay with Vingegaard on stage 11 as well. Clearly abandoned by the team. He should have had 3 team mates to bring them back.

Stage 11 of last year's Tour was one of the most entertaining stages we've had as Rog fans in France for a very, very long time. I have no complaints whatsoever about how Rog raced that stage. He was ballsy as hell to follow a nuclear level Vingegaard and eventually get blown off his wheel.

Even when Evenepoel finally caught up with him, he had a look on his face like "oh hello, how did that work out for you Primož?".

If we could have more of the same next month I'm all for it.

 

[Rackham]

I think bad things must happen to both Pogacar and Vingegaard for others to have a realistic shot at TdF victory. It can happen but because there are two mutants (instead of just one) it's not likely.

Just another thing on this particular issue, i.e. as unlikely as it is, we did just see that exact same thing happen in the Giro to Rog and Ayuso. So it's not totally farfetched either. But obviously we're not going to start hoping for anyone to crash out though because if there is a pile up in the bunch, it's highly likely Rog is going down with them as well. So it's a moot point.

The other issue pertains to the Giro again, i.e. we got all hyped and ready for a hard battle against Ayuso and UAE. I believed Rog was favorite to win the Giro but at no point did I think it was going to be a walk in the park. And it evidently wasn't.

So it's totally impossible to sit here a month out from the Tour and just casually shrug when looking at the opposition next month. I mean if Ayuso was going to be a tough nut to crack in Italy, then those mutants next month are a different world altogether. The one hope here is that Rog can also level up in his prep before July.

 

[CyclistAbi]

The team to bring them back?
Once Pogacar and Vingegaard attack on San Luca it's up to you to follow if you have the level, not up to the team to bring them.
Roglic didn't have that level. End. Of.

Heavens forbid their plan A for Tour 2025 would involve anything remotely like that, aliens will strike and will strike fast and hard. The only chance humanity has here is to attack their biggest weakness, not by trying to play their game. And the biggest weakness is aliens are not aware that you are not supposed to race a stage race as being an one day classic, day in day out. So what should happen on San Luca is for the team to sign capitulation, before the stage even started, there should be a satellite rider(s) waiting on top of San Luca and once trigger happy GC contenders went, let them, encourage them. After to use the satellite riders, if no other team member survived the climb, and to chase the jackasses down or at least to mitigate the loses. Day in day out.

Roglic didn't have the level to stay with Vingegaard on stage 11 as well. Clearly abandoned by the team. He should have had 3 team mates to bring them back.

In mountains it's mostly mano-a-mano, as it should be, here Rogla should count on one team member to be somewhat around. Jonas IMHO paid for that effort, later on, working with Rogla would IMHO be a better strategy for him, but this is not something Rogla can control, so in the end you adjust to the circumstances, GC isn't won on stage 11. So in mountains it's not that much on how much will your team help you is on how fast you can make allies, to chase the jackasses down, or to mitigate the loses. Day in day out.

P.S. Deep into the race, there you can ride your own (instant) classic, one for the ages. Team, you and the stars aligned.

 

[theyoungest]

Just another thing on this particular issue, i.e. as unlikely as it is, we did just see that exact same thing happen in the Giro to Rog and Ayuso. So it's not totally farfetched either. But obviously we're not going to start hoping for anyone to crash out though because if there is a pile up in the bunch, it's highly likely Rog is going down with them as well. So it's a moot point.

The other issue pertains to the Giro again, i.e. we got all hyped and ready for a hard battle against Ayuso and UAE. I believed Rog was favorite to win the Giro but at no point did I think it was going to be a walk in the park. And it evidently wasn't.

So it's totally impossible to sit here a month out from the Tour and just casually shrug when looking at the opposition next month. I mean if Ayuso was going to be a tough nut to crack in Italy, then those mutants next month are a different world altogether. The one hope here is that Rog can also level up in his prep before July.

If Roglic shows up to the Tour in the same form as the Giro the mutants are the least of his worries. He rode two good time trials, but otherwise he wasn't impressive at any point in the race. You could argue that neither was Yates and he won in the end, but Roglic was even struggling on a typical Roglic finish like the one where Ayuso won.

 

[Rackham]

If Roglic shows up to the Tour in the same form as the Giro the mutants are the least of his worries. He rode two good time trials, but otherwise he wasn't impressive at any point in the race. You could argue that neither was Yates and he won in the end, but Roglic was even struggling on a typical Roglic finish like the one where Ayuso won.

With his Giro form, Jorgenson and Almeida would be a problem next month. In fact Jorgenson was a problem in the Dauphiné last year. Sure Rog had crashed in that race but that's like constantly staring down the barrel of a gun anyway, i.e. we know that even the smallest slip or tumble on the road can have dire consequences a few days later. So it's like 1 crash and GC is done. That's what it feels like going into the TdF 2025.

He basically needs his Vuelta 2024 form here (where he didn't crash at all over the 3 weeks). That's literally a prerequisite. He was much better in Spain than he was in the Tour last year but even then he had a bit of a weaker day when he got dropped by Mas on Hazallanas (stage 9 I think). He also had a not-so-great climb up Cuitu Negru as well.

That's what I'm getting at here. Because like I said on his day when everything is working, then yeah he can do one of those super performances that very few riders can. A fantastic performance. But the consistency has often been missing (& how to maximise good days versus bad days) and in France there's just a whole load of other stuff that's ruined his Tours as well.

I think Rog's fans just have to embrace the whole underdog role and go with it because that's the truth.

 

[acm]

With his Giro form, Jorgenson and Almeida would be a problem next month. In fact Jorgenson was a problem in the Dauphiné last year. Sure Rog had crashed in that race but that's like constantly staring down the barrel of a gun anyway, i.e. we know that even the smallest slip or tumble on the road can have dire consequences a few days later. So it's like 1 crash and GC is done. That's what it feels like going into the TdF 2025.

He basically needs his Vuelta 2024 form here (where he didn't crash at all over the 3 weeks). That's literally a prerequisite. He was much better in Spain than he was in the Tour last year but even then he had a bit of a weaker day when he got dropped by Mas on Hazallanas (stage 9 I think). He also had a not-so-great climb up Cuitu Negru as well.

That's what I'm getting at here. Because like I said on his day when everything is working, then yeah he can do one of those super performances that very few riders can. A fantastic performance. But the consistency has often been missing (& how to maximise good days versus bad days) and in France there's just a whole load of other stuff that's ruined his Tours as well.

I think Rog's fans just have to embrace the whole underdog role and go with it because that's the truth.

About Dauphine last year:
"Last year, during the Critérium du Dauphiné, won by Roglic for the second time, Lora parked her SUV next to my car at Le Collet d'Allevard. We got to talking. That morning at the starting point in Hauterives, it looked for a long time as if her husband would not be able to start. The day before, he had fallen badly, but Primoz did not want to give up. In the end, the team doctor gave the green light. Even though he could not even reach into his back pocket with his left arm to get some food."
https://www.wielerflits.be/nieuws/c...nt-om-deze-reden-het-voordeel-van-de-twijfel/

Basically the same thing happened to him at the Giro this year, that damn shoulder.
As for the Tour, my only wish is that he gets to Paris without injuries and that he can show what he is capable of. Even if that means a podium, fifth or tenth place, I don't care.

 

[Rackham]

About Dauphine last year:
"Last year, during the Critérium du Dauphiné, won by Roglic for the second time, Lora parked her SUV next to my car at Le Collet d'Allevard. We got to talking. That morning at the starting point in Hauterives, it looked for a long time as if her husband would not be able to start. The day before, he had fallen badly, but Primoz did not want to give up. In the end, the team doctor gave the green light. Even though he could not even reach into his back pocket with his left arm to get some food."
https://www.wielerflits.be/nieuws/c...nt-om-deze-reden-het-voordeel-van-de-twijfel/

Basically the same thing happened to him at the Giro this year, that damn shoulder.
As for the Tour, my only wish is that he gets to Paris without injuries and that he can show what he is capable of. Even if that means a podium, fifth or tenth place, I don't care.

Yep. Pretty much this.

It'll be what it'll be. People said he was washed in 2022 (specifically back in Itzulia of that year) but his knee was busted back then. Shoulder, knee, back. They've all been wrecked over the years.

Still, we all know he's gonna win the Tour after an attack on Montmartre on the final stage. 100% the same way he won in Catalunya.

Just kidding. Or maybe not? Fun fact: I see the bookies have Rog at 8.25 at the moment for overall GC win in the Tour. It's still 4th favorite but that's way closer to the others than I expected tbh. Looks like the bookmakers aren't willing to lose lots of money 'just in case' Rog does pull a miracle out of a hat.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Just kidding. Or maybe not? Fun fact: I see the bookies have Rog at 8.25 at the moment for overall GC win in the Tour. It's still 4th favorite but that's way closer to the others than I expected tbh. Looks like the bookmakers aren't willing to lose lots of money 'just in case' Rog does pull a miracle out of a hat.

According to those he's like 16-25.

https://www.oddschecker.com/cycling/tour-de-france/winner

 

[Links2003]

Apart from its shape etc. After all, he will be the only one coming out of the Giro with injuries.

I'm curious to see how the team will be set up. Completely for him like at the Giro? I think it would be better to line up differently. They should try to get good results in the first week. It would be difficult without top sprinters, but that would create a good atmosphere in the team. The pressure wouldn't just be on Roglic. And riders who get their own freedom and achieve (small) successes are often even more motivated as helpers.

RBH should ride more offensively like they did in the Giro (the year of victory with Jai). Others were allowed to ride on their own account and were there when they were needed.