Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[bNator]

The fact is that yesterday (when it didn’t matter) TJV looked good. And Today when they should be looking good, all their domestiques where totally spent due to (I assume) yesterdays effort.

They can talk about bad luck all they want but me myselef personally I was pretty pissed at them yesterday for showing off a day before such an important stage. And as it turned out, there are dire consequences now - one of their GC leader all but out of contention. Their two-pronged attack looking pretty much infeasible now and unless Vinge pulls a huge rabbit out of a hat, second place looking the most they can get from this race (again).

But sure - blame the bad luck if you will, do the Plan B documentary again. Your glorious run to the second place…

 

[CyclistAbi]

@bNator

Somehow i feel that they will drill it again tomorrow just fine. In addition they were not spent today. Just look what they did after they screwed up. If only they would do that in the first place. But likely they would need some sort of supercomputers to come up with such idea. I will give them that.

 

[bNator]

@bNator

Somehow i feel that they will drill it again tomorrow just fine. In addition they were not spent today. Just look what they did after they screwed up. If only they would do that in the first place. But likely they would need some sort of supercomputers to come up with such idea. I will give them that.

After Roglic got his 3 helpers, they lost 40 seconds to Pogacar. I know it is Pogacar we’re talking about but still - it was 4 against 2…

And yes, they will drill 4 days out of 5 just to let Pogacar drill it on the fifth day to get it all back and multiply it by 5

 

[CyclistAbi]

After Roglic got his 3 helpers, they lost 40 seconds to Pogacar. I know it is Pogacar we’re talking about but still - it was 4 against 2…

Injured Rogla pulling in front is not the right reference. Look at it from a team perspective. They didn't lost much. After they went all in. And if they would be the ones from the start. They would lost 0 or more likely would gain some time today. In addition if the last rider in JV train would press on the brakes. There you have it. A split.

They just acted like they don't care today. Like amateurs.

 

[CyclistAbi]

To sum it up in regards to my opinion. It doesn't look like JV came prepared to this race. Looking at it from some tactical perspective. On stage 5 they just had poor tactics. On top of that then one would expect they would at least drill it. Like on all other stages. They didn't. From inner team hierarchy point of view Jonas is now way ahead. If Roglič would want to win this Tour edition he would need to attack his teammate. After stage 5 he is now more then 2 minutes behind in regard to top form Merckx.

All this would i guess still be manageable to an extent if Rogla wouldn't be injured. Dislocated shoulder usually takes weeks to heal properly. It is hence likely over. Hard to see him helping Jonas too. You just can't compete on this level if you are injured.

One glimpse of hope i guess could be he relocated his shoulder ASAP. Maybe consequences are hence less severe. In this case i guess he needs to survive till the next resting day without losing more time. In that case he could still bounce back by for example getting in a breakaway. Or when playing some numbers game where Rogla would go first. But based on instinct. His team won't help him here much. If they would be able to do that they would do a much better job on stage 5.

Bottom line likely it's all over but lets see if he can at least keep up without losing time till the next rest day.

 

[Extinction]

This.
You have 2 leaders and both end up with bad luck. (Roglic crashed himself which kind of his own fault ofcourse).
You can bring such a strong team and still get f'ed on a stage like this if both leaders end up with bad luck... not 1... no both.

Poor Roglic :/

How is a freak incident (a race motorcycle strikes a hay stack placed at the border of the road, ironically as a protective border to cushion a rider's fall, causing it to enter the road and bring several down who unavoidably ran into it) Roglic's own fault?

 

[Rackham]

How is a freak incident (a race motorcycle strikes a hay stack placed at the border of the road, ironically as a protective border to cushion a rider's fall, causing it to enter the road and bring several down who unavoidably ran into it) Roglic's own fault?

Some people had already made up their minds before they even saw what happened. Some also just don't like Roglic, so any chance to turn the screw & blame him is fair game for them.

No apology yet from ASO either for falsifying the result of this TdF with their incompetence.

 

[Miha81]

Injured Rogla pulling in front is not the right reference. Look at it from a team perspective. They didn't lost much. After they went all in. And if they would be the ones from the start. They would lost 0 or more likely would gain some time today. In addition if the last rider in JV train would press on the brakes. There you have it. A split.

They just acted like they don't care today. Like amateurs.

Exactly. Vingegaard was nicely sheltered behind VVA and the JV train in his group but in Rogla group you saw him pushing the whole by himself as his "helpers" were not strong enough. Rogla simply can't catch a break.

 

[Rackham]

The fact is that yesterday (when it didn’t matter) TJV looked good. And Today when they should be looking good, all their domestiques where totally spent due to (I assume) yesterdays effort.

They can talk about bad luck all they want but me myselef personally I was pretty pissed at them yesterday for showing off a day before such an important stage. And as it turned out, there are dire consequences now - one of their GC leader all but out of contention. Their two-pronged attack looking pretty much infeasible now and unless Vinge pulls a huge rabbit out of a hat, second place looking the most they can get from this race (again).

But sure - blame the bad luck if you will, do the Plan B documentary again. Your glorious run to the second place…

I could write a book about Jumbo's neurotic approach to the TdF.

Some teams like Movistar, Arkea, Bora & even Ineos etc. are just happy to go to the Tour with their best riders & see what happens. They have podium contenders who under certain circumstances can win it. They also have potential stage winners as well.

Jumbo meanwhile... they're just greedy & demand absolute certainties with guaranteed results, leaving a Damocles sword hanging over riders who might not hit those targets immediately. That's what I'd call it. They're obsessed with overperforming in July & going for everything. Green, yellow, multiple stage wins & stunts like pointless team attacks on cat 4 climbs just to show off their power. Even before the disaster yesterday, Merijn Zeeman (him again...) was already talking about getting a better idea of which rider (Jonas or Rog) they should back first in GC after stage 6 & 7 (La Planche).

This in & of itself is insane in cycling because over a 3 week GT, form can fluctuate. It's not unusual for a rider to be perhaps less powerful in the first week & then super powerful at the end of week 3. Just look at how Jai Hindley won the Giro.

But whatever, after some reflection & night's sleep, I consider this disaster to be one disaster too many. The crash was hideous misfortune but the situation which led to the crash (Roglic left with only one helper up front) & the consequences (Roglic getting left behind the Jonas/WvA group when he was right there in the cars) to be entirely self-inflicted by the team themselves.

It's like being a 3x GT winner, monument winner & serial 1 week stage race winner means f-all to the corporate people running that team. I'm still grossed out by what happened tbh.

 

[Gargamel35]

I think many here didn't see it coming. I didn't. But my wife did and she doesn't follow cycling that much at all. It made me think.

What we didn't see coming? Roglič becoming the third guy in JV team before the race even started. It was so obvious. Nr. 1 guy in JV is Wout. He brings the most money, the most glory, huge market behind him. Nr. 2 guy is now Jonas. He was Nr. 2 even before TdF started. Roglič was Nr. 3. Roglič didn't have the form he showed last year, something was off this time.
Positions of the bikes on team cars said so. All the Wout / Jonas talking about winning said so. All the silence from JV said so. Roglič is such a nice and quiet guy and he just takes it. A non cyclist who got his late chance and will be thankful forever, even if they dupe him a million times.

For that reason i also don't blame JV team for dropping back helping Jonas at all. Pogačar showed how a GC guy can/should race if he wants to survive such stages. Roglič was loosing wheels and positions again this year. Forget the team. He should make his own fortunes. He's probably not strong enough to do it and Pogačar is an alien so that's it i guess. But this year Roglič was not in top form and i really doubt he would be in the third week. Now he's injured and behind. He's officially Nr. 3 guy or even less for this race. If he stays in the race, he'll have to help Jonas (i doubt he can with his injuries). If he abandons, he needs to prepare for Vuelta...but Pogačar will be there again.

 

[Gargamel35]

Having said all that and if Roglič isn't hurt too much, this could set him free. Let's face it. GC Roglič is boring. There is another side of him. Risk taking, attacking Roglič. He could be unleashed in the mountains for stage win or to surprise Pog who will mark only Jonas from now on.

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

Primoz dislocated his shoulder yesterday… I think that it will be the way it was last year, and he will abandon the Tour at next weekend, at the latest. So I expect a DNS/DNF today, tomorrow, or Saturday/Sunday. No way he‘ll still be in the race next week…

 

[Gargamel35]

Primoz dislocated his shoulder yesterday… I think that it will be the way it was last year, and he will abandon the Tour at next weekend, at the latest. So I expect a DNS/DNF today, tomorrow, or Saturday/Sunday. No way he‘ll still be in the race next week…

Silver lining here is that he did that many times before. That's why he popped it back in while us mortals would be crying in pain on the floor. So it could be that pain/damage is not as big as it could be. But he also fell hard, he ripped his pants so who knows what else is badly damaged.

He's a warrior. Reminds me on Hector (Roglič) vs. Achilles. A mortal that is pushing himself 110% vs. the gods. You know he'll loose, yet you root for him all the way.

 

[Blobs]

Contador won the 2015 giro after having dislocated his shoulder on stage 6. Let's hope we still get to see a really good Roglic in this race.

 

[Lequack]

I think the worst part is not him crashing, but his whole team riding past him. You could see in point he was only like 10 or 15 seconds behind the cars of that chasing group. It's so weird that they just rode away.

Here is a graph with time differences, where you can see he and Hooydonck were really close to the Wout group, literally about 10 seconds behind, before dropping off.

 

[Blobs]

In hindsight it's clear they should have made a few guys wait for Roglic when he was just behind the Vingegaard group, but I can understand how, in the heat of the moment, it's a difficult decision to make. It looked like only van Aert noticed him when they passed him, but it's extremely risky to stop and wait for him. What if he's so hurt he abandons?

When he was back on his bike and riding right behind the Vingegaard group they definitely should have dropped a few guys back and stopped pacing the group, but even that is risky as he might be so hurt he couldn't keep up, and they would have lost half the team doing it. That's clearly a risk they should have taken if they wanted to keep Roglic in the GC, and we know now it would have been the right decision. They made a mistake there.

 

[CyclistAbi]

After sleeping it over. JV offered poor team support to Rogla before the crash (and before Jonas mechanical). And after that too. For a stage they were supposedly preparing one year. Where their team strength should really come forward.

You have done a poor job guys.

 

[Bolder]

I'm really surprised Roglic hasn't had surgery to prevent further dislocations. I had a similar problem when I was young and had the surgery. That was actually 30 years ago, and have never had a dislocation since, despite putting my shoulder in similar situations/bike crashes etc. And I know the techniques have advanced significantly since then.

It was a very easy recovery, too. Seems like something worth trying. Once you dislocate your shoulder once, it's going to happen again. After 5-6 times it's actually a real concern for long-term issues.

 

[Eeslliw]

I think yesterday was clear that Jonas is their leader n.1 from the beginning. His chain droped and basically whole team other than Laporte and Roglic were around him to help (how they managed that was just comical, typical Jumbo).

Regarding dislocated shoulder, maybe there is higher chance to break collarbone if he would fix his shoulder? But he does seem to be made of rubber, the amount of hard crashes he had in last years and no broken bone.

 

[inri2000]

I'm really surprised Roglic hasn't had surgery to prevent further dislocations. I had a similar problem when I was young and had the surgery. That was actually 30 years ago, and have never had a dislocation since, despite putting my shoulder in similar situations/bike crashes etc. And I know the techniques have advanced significantly since then.

It was a very easy recovery, too. Seems like something worth trying. Once you dislocate your shoulder once, it's going to happen again. After 5-6 times it's actually a real concern for long-term issues.

Agreed, I had the same surgery and never had issues since, but there is probably something about his situation we are not aware of

 

[CyclistAbi]

I'm really surprised Roglic hasn't had surgery to prevent further dislocations. I had a similar problem when I was young and had the surgery. That was actually 30 years ago, and have never had a dislocation since, despite putting my shoulder in similar situations/bike crashes etc. And I know the techniques have advanced significantly since then.

It was a very easy recovery, too. Seems like something worth trying. Once you dislocate your shoulder once, it's going to happen again. After 5-6 times it's actually a real concern for long-term issues.

In that case likely the collarbone would take the hit yesterday.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I personally doubt it but even if Jonas was their leader from the start. There is still no excuse. They had a year to prepare to take on Pogi on this stage. They arguably have the best classics team. They raced aggressively till stage 5 and likely will after stage 5 again. When connecting all the dots. They have spent a whole year to prepare and plot a scenario on how to limit their chances on stage 5.

Lets forget about Pogi. Arkéa–Samsic with Nairo Quintana has beaten them on stage 5.

Pogi must be shitting himself. And JV yes you really do deserve all the credits this time. I will keep an eye on this race mainly to see if there is still trust involved. Or they blew it in that regard too.

It's still Rogla in the race and as long as that is the case i am obliged to watch it.

 

[Rackham]

I personally doubt it but even if Jonas was their leader from the start. There is still no excuse. They had a year to prepare to take on Pogi on this stage. They arguably have the best classics team. They raced aggressively till stage 5 and likely will after stage 5 again. When connecting all the dots. They have spent a whole year to prepare and plot a scenario on how to limit their chances on stage 5.

Lets forget about Pogi. Arkéa–Samsic with Nairo Quintana has beaten them on stage 5.

Pogi must be shitting himself. And JV yes you really do deserve all the credits this time. I will keep an eye on this race mainly to see if there is still trust involved. Or they blew it in that regard too.

It's still Rogla in the race and as long as that is the case i am obliged to watch it.

I completely agree.

It's completely unacceptable incompetence. Even Jonas panicking as he stole his teammates bikes. What the hell was going on? There's like zero voice of authority or control over hectic situations in that team. The disaster always snowballs as well, just as it did last summer (after Gesink's DNF, sh*t hit the fan real fast). Everyone at TJV is super stressed out in the TdF like bridesmaids late for a wedding.

The first time it's horrible bad luck (crash before the 2020 TdF, or the incidents in the 2019 Giro), the second it's a curse (2021 TdF crash), this time? It's all on the team. Give him a small train of 2 or 3 riders at that roundabout & it's his teammates who hit the deck first. Yes, even when the cause of the crash is insane bad luck. Then all they had to do after the crash was ease up the chase with WvA for a few minutes & he gets back into the group, leaving all the Jumbo guys to chase together, not separated with Rog's group chasing WvA & Jonas.

The worst part? The media spin afterwards, with comments from the team which makes it sound like they overcame adversity or something. I mean f me, it's like taking a car with a puncture for a joyride on the motorway & then boasting you've 'survived' the ensuing & entirely predictable crash.

I can think of loads of bad metaphors after what happened yesterday.

 

[roundabout]

I think the worst part is not him crashing, but his whole team riding past him. You could see in point he was only like 10 or 15 seconds behind the cars of that chasing group. It's so weird that they just rode away.

Here is a graph with time differences, where you can see he and Hooydonck were really close to the Wout group, literally about 10 seconds behind, before dropping off.

Van Hooydonck first time loss was in the Vingegaard mechanical debacle.

Then he was in the group with Vingegaard and Van Aert through the Roglic crash site.

Then he waited for Roglic around the time when there is a second time loss (27 km to go)

Or IOW, for the graph to work, it should be marked when Van Aert joined Vingegaard and Van Hooydonck joined Roglic

 

[Kwibus]

A lot can be said about yesterday. It's all about perspective to be fair.
If Jumbo brought Roglic as their only leader than what happened yesterday would've went different ofcourse, but Jumbo decided to bring 2 leaders which increases the chance of attacking Pogacar succesfully, but yesterday if backfired.

1. They certainly had a plan, but it started going wrong when WvA, after taking a toilet break, was moving up to the front and crashed. He hit the deck quite hard and on his way back again almost ran into a car. He admitted that he was afraid after these incidents and didn't move to the front because he was afraid. He also added that he felt he let his team down because of this.
2. Because of them missing WvA at the front and to a much lesser extent Kruijswijk they had a much harder time staying at the front. It's allready very very hard to stay grouped at the front during a stage like this.
3. Vingegaard getting a flat and panicking. van Hooydonck wanted to put the chain on and did so very fast, but Vingegaard rode off with van Hooydoncks bike which was waaay to big so we got to see a failshow and him and his teammates losing way too much time. Else he couldve been back with just only the help of van Hooydonck.
4. van Aert who wasn't back at Roglic group falling back to Vingegaard is imo not a mistake. They wanted to bring Vingegaard back asap.
5. Roglic falling over Ewan, but most of all big ASO fail causing a crash.
6. The Vingegaard train passes Roglic when he is walking to a chair. I've read comments Roglic was just 10 seconds behind Vingegaard, but that really never happened. When he started riding he was atleast 30-40 seconds behind without teammates at that point.
7. Jumbo has 2 aces and both have bad luck. I'm sorry, but that's just really bad luck. The choice which doms help which leader can be discussed endlessly, but the team was f*d at that point. I don't know what would've been the best choice here. Really no idea, it's not unlikely that Roglic is too injured to content for the win and then it was the right choice. If Roglic now proves to be the only one to hurt Pogacar than it was bad choice. I guess we'll see.

Also Wout van Aert was 100% domestique yesterday. This was never a discussion and WVA knew this before the TdF.

I don't understand the people that burn Jumbo down for what happened. That's way over the top. If Pogacar ended up in 1 of these situations he most likely would've lost even more time than Vingegaard or Roglic since he didn't have any help at all.