Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[VayaVayaVaya]

Not sure why we’re skipping 2021 here…

2020 - Dauphine crash was covered; he dropped out due to injuries while in the lead with one stage to go and team wasn’t sure he’d start the Tour. Dumoulin I believe said he was terrible in training during that lead up, so a very real impact.

2021 - I don’t think there’s any evidence that Vingegaard was better than Roglic at this point. He dropped Pogi on Ventoux in similar fashion to Roglic dropping him on Loze. Both benefited from Roglic crashing.

2022 - I think Roglic was unlikely to win because he was banged up all year with the knee issue even before the broken back and Vingegaard was very strong.

I think without crashes, it’s not a stretch that he would have won those 3 in a row (and 2019 if he’d raced it) and be in contention for greatest (not best) GT rider this century.

But we don’t live in that world. And that’s different from saying “They only won because of X.”

 

[Red Rick]

Not sure why we’re skipping 2021 here…

2020 - Dauphine crash was covered; he dropped out due to injuries while in the lead with one stage to go and team wasn’t sure he’d start the Tour. Dumoulin I believe said he was terrible in training during that lead up, so a very real impact.

2021 - I don’t think there’s any evidence that Vingegaard was better than Roglic at this point. He dropped Pogi on Ventoux in similar fashion to Roglic dropping him on Loze. Both benefited from Roglic crashing.

2022 - I think Roglic was unlikely to win because he was banged up all year with the knee issue even before the broken back and Vingegaard was very strong.

I think without crashes, it’s not a stretch that he would have won those 3 in a row (and 2019 if he’d raced it) and be in contention for greatest (not best) GT rider this century.

But we don’t live in that world. And that’s different from saying “They only won because of X.”

Going from 3 Tours where he could have won to actually winning 3 in a row is a pretty huge stretch.

2021 was possible, but not super likely because of the weather in the Alps for me.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Going from 3 Tours where he could have won to actually winning 3 in a row is a pretty huge stretch.

2021 was possible, but not super likely because of the weather in the Alps for me.

My point isn’t that he was robbed of 3-4 in a row, just that he was a few things breaking his way from doing so. I would not say that for 2023-2024. And history doesn’t care about would’ve could’ve should’ve.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Maybe Roglic could have 5 Tours if if if...

 

[Red Rick]

Maybe Roglic could have 5 Tours if if if...

If he quit ski jumping earlier.

Quid erat demonstrandum.

 

[Peyroteo94]

If he quit ski jumping earlier.

Quid erat demonstrandum.

Oh sorry, 8 Tours and dethroning Armstrong

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I mean, Chris Froome has 4 Tours…you’re saying that makes more sense?

 

[Ilmaestro99]

I mean, Chris Froome has 4 Tours…you’re saying that makes more sense?

Frrome was racing against bauke mollema and Romain bardet

 

[CyclistAbi]

This Giro-Tour double couldn't have come at a better time.

P.S. As for predictions of Tour editions after 2020, finishing them healthy, worst case scenario being 4 podiums.

 

[Gargamel35]

What most don't realize, Roglič got basically all his wins much older then most of his competition is right now. Let that sink in. Pog, Vinge, Remco,...are so young with so many success so quickly that they won everything they have before Roglič started even racing (age wise). And he had no cycling background.

 

[Oldman]

Not sure why we’re skipping 2021 here…

2020 - Dauphine crash was covered; he dropped out due to injuries while in the lead with one stage to go and team wasn’t sure he’d start the Tour. Dumoulin I believe said he was terrible in training during that lead up, so a very real impact.

2021 - I don’t think there’s any evidence that Vingegaard was better than Roglic at this point. He dropped Pogi on Ventoux in similar fashion to Roglic dropping him on Loze. Both benefited from Roglic crashing.

2022 - I think Roglic was unlikely to win because he was banged up all year with the knee issue even before the broken back and Vingegaard was very strong.

I think without crashes, it’s not a stretch that he would have won those 3 in a row (and 2019 if he’d raced it) and be in contention for greatest (not best) GT rider this century.

But we don’t live in that world. And that’s different from saying “They only won because of X.”

And we shouldn't say they "could've, would've" . It's a f*ckng risky enterprise and it's part of racing. By the same Karmic sense of equity; those that would disqualify Roglic's achievements because someone wasn't there, got hurt or just sucked should also STFU. Anyone that has actually lost a race due to the random violence that happens understands. No complainin'. No explainin'.

 

[Oldman]

Maybe Roglic could have 5 Tours if if if...

You're right. No whining about losses....just like Primoz never equivocates. He just start again because he's a hard case for effort and a soft case for giving credit to those that beat him. That's the sport that many here need to learn.
But we can't have any "banality" involved in the judgement of Legends or heroes. That benchmark as judged by keyboard experts and fans that have not lost flesh, broken bones, lost contracts in pursuit of a ridiculously hard "sport". They don't even know a Cat 4 bike racer.

 

[Oldman]

Oh sorry, 8 Tours and dethronating Armstrong

You're way out of the depth of both spelling (language translation issue?) and reality of sport in general. Don't be sorry except maybe for lack of real understanding.

 

[Cycling111]

I understand that you want to value Roglic, but to do so, you are undervaluing those who won.

Rogic wouldn't have won the 2022 TDF. He's never been at that level in a GT.
Vingegaard already looked stronger than him in Dauphiné.

And Roglic wouldn't have won the 2021 TDF against Pogacar. Once again, you're underestimating Pogacar.
Roglic didn't put more than a minute on a neo-pro Pogacar in 2020, but he would´ve beaten him in Grand-Bornand?

Remember that Carapaz made Roglic suffer in the Vuelta. He needed help from Movistar.
He would´ve lost 2021 TDF in Grand-Bornand.
He's always struggled with those kinds of long-distance attacks. That's why he's never been able to competed Pogacar's level in Lombardia.
If Carapaz made him suffer in the Vuelta, what do you think would´ve happened in Grand-Bornand? And with rain, which Roglic doesn't like too much.

In addition to all this, you attribute to Roglic Tours that others have won. Could we do the same with the Vuelta? Would Pogacar have won the Vuelta in the years he didn't go?
These comparisons don't suit Roglic. The level of those TDF have been far superior to the Vuelta with Enric Mas not attacking. It was much harder to win TDF those years.

 

[Cycling111]

Maybe Roglic could have 5 Tours if if if...

Pogacar was almost a neo-pro in 2020; Roglic was already at his peak, and he couldn't beat him.
But in 2021, he would´ve easily beaten Pogacar, who was crushing everyone in Grand-Bornand with 40 km to go, when Carapaz made him suffer in the Vuelta by attacking slightly further out than usual.

Frrome was racing against bauke mollema and Romain bardet

Yes, and G. Thomas was seconds away from beating Roglic in the Giro.
G. Thomas was a spectator in the 2022 TDF.

Look now at how far behind Enric Mas is in the TDF. Enric Mas has been the great rival in the Vuelta

3

3

-

MAS Enric

Movistar Team

750

240

16″

3:13

19

20

▲1

MAS Enric

Movistar Team

70

110

6″

1:11:05

We saw Froome being superior to Contador, I wouldn't underestimate him.

In any case. The unique feature of the TDF is that you not only have to be strong, you also have to overcome the difficult French roads of the early stages, and it's clear that this is a handicap for Roglic.
In Spain he doesn't have as many DNFs. A TDF winner has to be good at that too.

That's why I thought it was crazy when they suggested he would be competitive in De Ronde. Aside from the fact that he struggles in long-distance races, he would have to overcome the fight in the sectors. De Ronde is a race with many crashes. But since Pogacar won it, some believe Roglic could too.
They despise everything Pogacar does. Now, the easy thing is to win the Tour by doing a Giro-Tour, when it's always been harder to win the Tour that way.

Now, what's underrated is the 2021 TDF and what Pogacar did at Grand-Bornand. How Roglic has won so many races whit 40km solo.

 

[Berniece]

Pogacar was almost a neo-pro in 2020; Roglic was already at his peak, and he couldn't beat him.

Just because Roglic was younger in 2020 then he is now, doesn’t mean he was at his peak. How he is riding now, he’s better than in 2020.

 

[Cycling111]

Just because Roglic was younger in 2020 then he is now, doesn’t mean he was at his peak. How he is riding now, he’s better than in 2020.

But not compared to Pogacar. Pogacar was too inexperienced and young a rider for the TDF. Pogacar was much further from his peak than Roglic.

All the riders are doing better numbers every eyar. Bernal is doing better now than when he won the TDF. Remco is doing better than Pantani, but that doesn't mean he's a better climber than Pantani. Pantani in 2025 would do better than in 1998.

What matters in TDF2020 is that Pogacar was much further from his peak due to his age and inexperience than Roglic.

But this discussion doesn't matter. We already know that Roglic would have won every race in which he DNF And he didn't even win in 2020 because he didn't want to.
The same thing is said about Vuelta a Espana, which Remco won. Roglic would´ve won that Vuelta if he hadn't DNF.

If he had DNF Zurich, perhaps it would be said that he would have won the World Championship.
In the end, it's better to DNF than to lose; they'll credit you with all the other riders' victories.

After reading that he could be competitive at De Ronde, anything is possible.
I can't imagine him racing with VDP. If he couldn't win Lombardia, it's hard to imagine him racing with Mathieu and avoiding all the accidents.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I understand that you want to value Roglic, but to do so, you are undervaluing those who won.

Rogic wouldn't have won the 2022 TDF. He's never been at that level in a GT.
Vingegaard already looked stronger than him in Dauphiné.

And Roglic wouldn't have won the 2021 TDF against Pogacar. Once again, you're underestimating Pogacar.
Roglic didn't put more than a minute on a neo-pro Pogacar in 2020, but he would´ve beaten him in Grand-Bornand?

Remember that Carapaz made Roglic suffer in the Vuelta. He needed help from Movistar.
He would´ve lost 2021 TDF in Grand-Bornand.

Agreed that Roglic would've had a hard time in cold Alps in 2021. Pogacar demolished everybody in Grand-Bornand. As for 2022, Vingegaard's level was superior to anyone. Team orders at JV (and favourable race situation) would've been needed for Rogla to have a realistic chance.

 

[Berniece]

But not compared to Pogacar. Pogacar was too inexperienced and young a rider for the TDF. Pogacar was much further from his peak than Roglic.

All the riders are doing better numbers every eyar. Bernal is doing better now than when he won the TDF. Remco is doing better than Pantani, but that doesn't mean he's a better climber than Pantani.
What matters in TDF2020 is that Pogacar was much further from his peak due to his age and inexperience than Roglic.

But this discussion doesn't matter. We already know that Roglic would have won every race in which he DNF And he didn't even win in 2020 because he didn't want to.
The same thing is said about Vuelta a Espana, which Remco won. Roglic would´ve won that Vuelta if he hadn't DNF.

If he had DNF Zurich, perhaps it would be said that he would have won the World Championship.
In the end, it's better to DNF than to lose; they'll credit you with all the other riders' victories.

After reading that he could be competitive at De Ronde, anything is possible.
I can't imagine him racing with VDP. If he couldn't win Lombardia, it's hard to imagine him racing with Mathieu and avoiding all the accidents.

It's just that there's a case to be made about TDF 2020, since Roglic was far from his best there due to his crash. 2021-2024 he wouldn't have won, imo.

 

[Red Rick]

Agreed that Roglic would've had a hard time in cold Alps in 2021. Pogacar demolished everybody in Grand-Bornand. As for 2022, Vingegaard's level was superior to anyone. Team orders at JV (and favourable race situation) would've been needed for Rogla to have a realistic chance.

Yes it was hard in the cold Alps, but you also have to admit that everyone immediately gave up, apart from Carapaz who blew up. Vingegaard had crashed that stage too. Damage should be less, and then time could realistically be taken back on the Ventoux - with selfish Wout van Aert waiting this time, causing a war between Belgium and a Dutch supermarket chain, and in the 2nd ITT.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Yes it was hard in the cold Alps, but you also have to admit that everyone immediately gave up, apart from Carapaz who blew up. Vingegaard had crashed that stage too. Damage should be less, and then time could realistically be taken back on the Ventoux - with selfish Wout van Aert waiting this time, causing a war between Belgium and a Dutch supermarket chain, and in the 2nd ITT.

I do agree that Pogacar vs Roglic at Tour 2021 would've been much closer than Pogacar vs Vingegaard that year. Roglic was in great form then and could've taken some time back on Ventoux. Still, those cold days in the Alps (plus amazing first TT by Pog) would've created enough buffer IMO. Plus we are assuming Rogla himself would've no weaker day (he could've, it happens to him in GTs).

 

[Red Rick]

I do agree that Pogacar vs Roglic at Tour 2021 would've been much closer than Pogacar vs Vingegaard that year. Roglic was in great form then and could've taken some time back on Ventoux. Still, those cold days in the Alps (plus amazing first TT by Pog) would've created enough buffer IMO. Plus we are assuming Rogla himself would've no weaker day (he could've, it happens to him in GTs).

First ITT I think he barely loses time without that crash. It was kinda punchy, and Rog lost like 45s while so injured he would DNF a few days later.

I'm pretty sure he'd be gaining time over the 2 TTs.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Yes it was hard in the cold Alps, but you also have to admit that everyone immediately gave up, apart from Carapaz who blew up. Vingegaard had crashed that stage too. Damage should be less, and then time could realistically be taken back on the Ventoux - with selfish Wout van Aert waiting this time, causing a war between Belgium and a Dutch supermarket chain, and in the 2nd ITT.

They didn't gave up because they wanted. They were all cooked and Pogacar was flying. Gaps are bigger with this tougg weather. We all know this. We see Pogacar's performances in this type of weather and we have a pattern, he completely destroys the peloton.
SB 2024 - "WTF" by Pidcock
Volta a Catalunya (Valter 2000) - Look to gaps and compare with other times riders climbed there
Vuelta 2020 (last mountain stage)
TdF 2021 (Grand Bornand)
FW 2025
I could add LBL, etc
In these races I mentioned, gaps were way bigger than what is normal. Pogacar is a monster in this type of weather and no way Roglic would stay with him there.
Roglic was in his best shape ever in 2020, he was dominating every rider (bar Pogacar) just like he did in the Dauphiné. His only problem was Pogacar improving a lot after Dauphiné (in 10 days) and I don't know how did he improve so much.
However, I still think Roglic could benefit a lot in 2022 if he didn't crash. Playing 2x1 against Pogacar would be good for Roglic (even by being the third best climber)

 

[Cycling111]

I've always liked Roglic. But I don't like the fact that other riders' victories are so heavily attributed to him, which also means they're undervalued.

To value Poulidor, it's said he lost the Tour de France againts historical riders like Merckx and Anquetil; it's not said he also lost the TDF againts Lucien Aimar (1966).

In 40 years, for Roiglic it'll be better if Pogacar is highly valued. Then, can be said that Roglic didn't win a Tour because Pogacar won it, not that he lost 2019 Giro against Carapaz.

For Pogacar, it's better to value how strong Vingegaard has been. It would´ve been like what happened with Ocaña, if he hadn't crashed and won the Tour de France against Merckx in 19971. Ocaña was far superior to Merckx that year because he was tremendously strong. That added more value to Merckx being superior to Ocaña again.

If we diminish the value of what others achieve, it diminishes the value of those who lose to them.

 

[Red Rick]

Interview with his trainer, though there's not that much news in it. Talks a lot about the strong bond and mutual respect he has with Roglic.

He wanted to retire together with Roglic, citing that Van Aert was younger and that would be too long. So he's joked to Rog that "if you sign another year I'm gonna have to kill you"

Belgische coach van Primoz Roglic wil na jarenlange succesvolle samenwerking samen stoppen

Interview Primoz Roglic en zijn Belgische trainer Marc Lamberts gaan ver terug. Héél ver. De sterke Sloveen is de topfavoriet om de Giro d’Italia naar zijn hand te zetten, iets wat tien jaar geleden maar weinig mensen in hem hadden gezien. Ook Lamberts zelf niet, geeft de Performance Coach van...

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