Everyone is doping? A Fallacy?

[Magnus]

Really? Millar has one or two big TT performances a year, on the road he's a glorified domestique. Wiggins as far as I know has never won anything on the road, let alone shown that he's part of the elite.

I think most cyclists consider riders that has participated TdF as part of the elite.

 

[Cobblestoned]

I think most cyclists consider riders that has participated TdF as part of the elite.

I think most cyclists consider riders that ride in the PT as part of the elite.

 

[Ferminal]

I think most cyclists consider riders that has participated TdF as part of the elite.

Read my original post, it was "the top echelon" (i.e. the 30 or so who are the same major competitors each year in the major races).

e.g.

Rodriguez
Gilbert
Evans
Valverde
Contador
Sanchez
Sanchez
Schleck
Schleck
Vino
Nibali
Anton
Basso
Scarponi
Cancellara
Boonen
Hushovd
Freire
Gesink
Kreuziger

Maybe 2 or 3 of these are "clean".

 

[TubularBills]

I think you're both muddling things up a bit here, although you're are indeed trying to clarify Tubes.

Taking a look at your two examples of 80/20 shows what it's about - a simply idea that the majority of effect comes from a minority of input (basically "20" could be anything <50% and "80" could be anything >50%, the figures vary and are more often not as important as the principle in itself).

Then looking at your own statement - this has got nothing to do with 80/20. It's simply saying that if a portion does something, the rest doesn't...

80/20 applied to the peloton would imply that 80% of doping is done by 20% of the riders. However, applying 80/20 to the peloton doesn't make much sense with just general numbers because we could also then say "80% of training is done by 20% of the riders".

If you were to say "80% of effect comes from 20% of the dope" I'd be more willing to go along. "20% of dopers get 80% of the total gain" is another interesting statement. Both of these are implied in most discussions on here stating that EPO is a game changer, coke is not (the first statement) or the whole debate of one-day types turning into GC contenders (the second).

Good Catch. It was a muddled application. To your last paragraph, and applying the most common statement of Pareto:

"80% of your sales come from 20% of your clients."

It makes sense that the higher salary riders who can afford a comprehensive program are doing just that. From a doping Doctor's perspective, who may have many clients, the principle would indicate that 80% of the Doc's Income came from 20% of the client base. Which might still support the Clinic assertion that it's the top riders who are doing most of the doping?

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[JPM London]

Good Catch. It was a muddled application. To your last paragraph, and applying the most common statement of Pareto:

"80% of your sales come from 20% of your clients."

It makes sense that the higher salary riders who can afford a comprehensive program are doing just that. From a doping Doctor's perspective, who may have many clients, the principle would indicate that 80% of the Doc's Income came from 20% of the client base. Which might still support the Clinic assertion that it's the top riders who are doing most of the doping?

Thanks for the clarification.

Thank you - I think you've got some good points in here.
Although we can't use this to say anything about how many dope, you've definitely got a point in playing "follow the money"...

 

[DAOTEC]

... you've definitely got a point in playing "follow the money"...

 

[biokemguy]

proving a negative

This kind of comes back to the fact that we can suggest, opine & draw whatever conclusions we so wish, however you can never prove anyone is clean. At present we can only find out if they arent. And thats a damn pity. I know its been mentioned in the Clinic before buts its a huge valid point.

+1
You can't prove a negative, but more passport data, and power data made public would go a long way.

Many who argue that the sport is cleaning up point to lower speeds and power numbers, but this data is usually unavailable for the people we suspect the most.

I'd like to see the power data for the top GC contenders published for every day of a GT. Even better would comparison of this data to previous years.

I realize this isn't gonna happen for a variety of reasons, but it would go a long way towards proving the negative.

 

[simo1733]

Read my original post, it was "the top echelon" (i.e. the 30 or so who are the same major competitors each year in the major races).

e.g.

Rodriguez
Gilbert
Evans
Valverde
Contador
Sanchez
Sanchez
Schleck
Schleck
Vino
Nibali
Anton
Basso
Scarponi
Cancellara
Boonen
Hushovd
Freire
Gesink
Kreuziger

Maybe 2 or 3 of these are "clean".

Cavendish not top echelon either!Good one.

 

[ferryman]

Read my original post, it was "the top echelon" (i.e. the 30 or so who are the same major competitors each year in the major races).

e.g.

Rodriguez
Gilbert
Evans
Valverde
Contador
Sanchez
Sanchez
Schleck
Schleck
Vino
Nibali
Anton
Basso
Scarponi
Cancellara
Boonen
Hushovd
Freire
Gesink
Kreuziger

Maybe 2 or 3 of these are "clean".

Freire, Hushovd & Gilbert?

 

[auscyclefan94]

Read my original post, it was "the top echelon" (i.e. the 30 or so who are the same major competitors each year in the major races).

e.g.

Rodriguez
Gilbert
Evans
Valverde
Contador
Sanchez
Sanchez
Schleck
Schleck
Vino
Nibali
Anton
Basso
Scarponi
Cancellara
Boonen
Hushovd
Freire
Gesink
Kreuziger

Maybe 2 or 3 of these are "clean".

Ferryman, gilbert has said that he maw go for gc in gt's in the future. That means he MUST BE A DOPER!

In all seriousness, i would probably say 4 or 5. With boonen, can we call him clean?

 

[ferryman]

Ferryman, gilbert has said that he maw go for gc in gt's in the future. That means he MUST BE A DOPER!

In all seriousness, i would probably say 4 or 5. With boonen, can we call him clean?

OK, recreational use aside I will raise you, your boy And Gesink.

 

[Ferminal]

Cavendish not top echelon either!Good one.

You notice there are no sprinters, when has Cavendish shown anything on his own? These guys work hard for 30km+ on some occasions, Cav never has to do it for more than 200m.

 

[andy1234]

You notice there are no sprinters, when has Cavendish shown anything on his own? These guys work hard for 30km+ on some occasions, Cav never has to do it for more than 200m.

So sprinters and timetriallists aren't in the elite?
Do the teams know this? Your observations could slash their wage bills.

 

[Finbouy]

I'm a newbie to this forum, so shout me down til the cows come home if you like but....

Nearly every thread on here is, or has been at some point, blighted by a posting of doping.

You Guys need to get out in the hills more and get some kinda balance on like.
We know doping happened years ago, still does in small sections of the Bunch, but it's way cleaner than ever it has been yet you still taint a decent sport with petty tittle tatttle about doping.

Move on Guys, move on.

 

[BroDeal]

Nearly every thread on here is, or has been at some point, blighted by a posting of doping.

You Guys need to get out in the hills more and get some kinda balance on like.
We know doping happened years ago, still does in small sections of the Bunch, but it's way cleaner than ever it has been yet you still taint a decent sport with petty tittle tatttle about doping.

Move on Guys, move on.

Oh, look. Pat McQuaid has decided to grace us with his presence.

 

[Benotti69]

I'm a newbie to this forum, so shout me down til the cows come home if you like but....

Nearly every thread on here is, or has been at some point, blighted by a posting of doping.

You Guys need to get out in the hills more and get some kinda balance on like.
We know doping happened years ago, still does in small sections of the Bunch, but it's way cleaner than ever it has been yet you still taint a decent sport with petty tittle tatttle about doping.

Move on Guys, move on.

got any evidence to support your argument?

2 TdF winners test positive in the last 5 years. Clean sport ?

 

[Finbouy]

Fat MC who?

Look I don't care much for dopers either, but nearly every thread has some sort of comment about it, don't matter what thread it is neither.

What about the passion for riding, the sweat the strain the cold, the heat, the locations, the mates, the coffee, the cake, the clothes, the races, the sportives, the mates, the bikes, the passion, the enthusiam..

Not the same old crap about doping..

Dull as man.

 

[JPM London]

Fat MC who?

Look I don't care much for dopers either, but nearly every thread has some sort of comment about it, don't matter what thread it is neither.

Erm, you are aware that you stumbled upon "the clinic", right?
Any posting on here that doesn't relate to doping is actually a waste of space...

 

[indurain666]

Fat MC who?

Look I don't care much for dopers either, but nearly every thread has some sort of comment about it, don't matter what thread it is neither.

What about the passion for riding, the sweat the strain the cold, the heat, the locations, the mates, the coffee, the cake, the clothes, the races, the sportives, the mates, the bikes, the passion, the enthusiam..

Not the same old crap about doping..

Dull as man.

Well you picked the wrong forum (i.e. this is the clinic) Moreover, about 90% of these guys have no real racing experience whatsoever, in fact, some of them don't even ride bicycles. So you have to understand that most of their discussion material is based on media material and not much "I have seen that" type of arguments.

 

[hrotha]

Not sure why not being able or willing to ride regularly would make you an Untermensch but apparently that's a pretty widespread point of view in this forum.

 

[The Devil]

Not sure why not being able or willing to ride regularly would make you an Untermensch but apparently that's a pretty widespread point of view in this forum.

Utter rubbish

 

[The Devil]

Oh, look. Pat McQuaid has decided to grace us with his presence.

Are You addicted to internet forums 6000 plus posts. All nonsense.

 

[The Devil]

Read my original post, it was "the top echelon" (i.e. the 30 or so who are the same major competitors each year in the major races).

e.g.

Rodriguez
Gilbert
Evans
Valverde
Contador
Sanchez
Sanchez
Schleck
Schleck
Vino
Nibali
Anton
Basso
Scarponi
Cancellara
Boonen
Hushovd
Freire
Gesink
Kreuziger

Maybe 2 or 3 of these are "clean".

Yo haven't a clue what You are talking about. In other words You know nothing about cycling.

 

[Ferminal]

So sprinters and timetriallists aren't in the elite?
Do the teams know this? Your observations could slash their wage bills.

Can you stop taking my words out of context?

When you start seeing sprinters and time trialists fighting at the end of classics or tough stages, they will be part of the blood doping elite until then they are specialists who cannot be directly compared to the others. You might as well ask why Chris Hoy, Alex Rasmussen and Cameron Meyer aren't "elite".

Yo haven't a clue what You are talking about. In other words You know nothing about cycling.

You're welcome to join in the discussion and divulge your superior knowledge.

 

[The Devil]

Can you stop taking my words out of context?

When you start seeing sprinters and time trialists fighting at the end of classics or tough stages, they will be part of the blood doping elite until then they are specialists who cannot be directly compared to the others.

Back of the dude mate. He is entitled to his own opinion. If You don't respect it no one gives a crap.