Evidence: Links Only!

[Irondan]

Re:

It is also being ignored here (and kingjr s translation doesn't capture this) that the title is in fact a quote. So it's " "Lemond uses very expensive doping" "

At the very least it is evidence that the rumor existed that Lemond was among the very first epo users, which i think is salient enough to warrant placement in this thread.

That's fine, maybe I was confusing evidence with proof. We can leave it here.

 

[sniper]

Cheers.
I'll put this here, the legal definition/status of a rumor:

RUMOR. A general public report of certain things, without any certainty as to their truth.
2. In general, rumor cannot be received in evidence, but when the question is whether such rumor existed, and not its truth or falsehood, then evidence of it may be given.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/rumor

 

[Aragon]

Re:

Cheers.
I'll put this here, the legal definition/status of a rumor:

RUMOR. A general public report of certain things, without any certainty as to their truth.
2. In general, rumor cannot be received in evidence, but when the question is whether such rumor existed, and not its truth or falsehood, then evidence of it may be given.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/rumor

Just for the record, the claim that the article referred in this thread is an independent proof that LeMond used rEPO, is a joke. It isn't even a good rumor.

As I have described in another thread, the whole article in Het Vrije Volk is based practically word-to-word on material that circulated in the Dutch media a few days before that particular article was published, and it seems that the largest Dutch news agency GPD is actually the original source for the information. Just compare these news items for yourselves:

http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?query=erythropo%C3%ABtine+%22lemond%22&page=1&coll=ddd&identifier=ddd%3A010963553%3Ampeg21%3Aa0442&resultsidentifier=ddd%3A010963553%3Ampeg21%3Aa0442

http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?query=erythropo%C3%ABtine+%22lemond%22&page=1&coll=ddd&identifier=ddd%3A011019416%3Ampeg21%3Aa0625&resultsidentifier=ddd%3A011019416%3Ampeg21%3Aa0625

http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?query=erythropo%C3%ABtine+%22lemond%22&page=1&coll=ddd&identifier=ddd%3A010567280%3Ampeg21%3Aa0475&resultsidentifier=ddd%3A010567280%3Ampeg21%3Aa0475

Even after a precursory look on these news items, it is clear that the only original input by the alleged author of the Het Vrije Volk-article is the sensational headline "LeMond gebruikt peperdure doping". It is an accusation that has only a slight connection to the actual text and for one reason or another, the other two newspapers that published the same material chose less dramatical sounding headlines.

EDIT: The author of the "sensational" Het Vrije Volk-article, Rob van den Dobbelsteen, was a writer of the Dutch news agency GPD, so it is even more clear that the context of the article was just word-to-word copy from a telegram item by the GPD.

http://www.boekenbespreking.nl/index.php?pilih=auteur&mod=yes&&auteur=318276

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Just for the record, the claim that the article referred in this thread is an independent proof that LeMond used rEPO, is a joke.

You just invented a non-existing claim and then set out to debunk that claim. Bravo.

It isn't even a good rumor.

It's a very good rumor even in the absence of this salient article. There is plenty of evidence to support its existence. This is just an additional piece of evidence to that extent.

Also, for the second time now you fail to mention that the title is not just a title, it's a quote. That may or may not be relevant, we don't know, but it should be mentioned.

Please take further 'evaluation' of the rumor, the evidence for its existence, and/or of any other (invented) claims to the Lemond thread. Last time I checked this thread is for *links only*.

 

[Aragon]

Re: Re:

When reading an article, i was taught to start with the headline. It reads "Lemond uses very expensive doping".
There is not much to argue about here. It's evidence pure and simple.

I think I proved conclusively two following things about the origins of the article and about its headline:

1) The entire article was already published word-to-word in Dutch media in 2/6/1990, ie. three days before Het Vrije Volk recycled the story (5/6/1990).
2) As there is zero original research from part of newspaper that published the story, the "quote" is clearly just a wrong reading of what the anonymous cyclist told about LeMond affording rEPO. I fail to see why the newspaper would've taken the whole story word-to-word, made additional research to get the alleged "quote" on the headline and still given credit for the article to the GPD staff writer. Illogical.

I am aware that this is "links only"-thread and I'll hope that there is a disclaimer added to this article that allegedly adds weight to the claim that LeMond used rEPO.

 

[sniper]

The link is evidence, pure and simple. What it is evidence of, that has been explained several times now.
With all respect it is not the purpose of this thread to discuss your failure to read.
Neither is this thread intended for making stuff up: what you say has been alleged and claimed, has not been alleged or claimed.

How you or we or anybody should *weigh* the evidence is another question, but, again, this thread is not the place for discussing it.

 

[Aragon]

Re:

It is pretty evident that there is very little any evidence about anything in the article. Aside from the headline, the article is just a cute news item from Dutch news agency about rEPO with an editor of re-publisher screwing up the quote they paraphrase in the headline.

If you do count *** up headline as evidence, then you have evidence, but my reading is that precisely the headline causes serious questions about its validity. I'll sincerely hope that moderators go through this post as well as the thread and make their decisions whether the article belongs here. By preferring the most original source material, the Leeuwarder courant -version from 2/6/1990 should actually be the one posted here because it is word-to-word the same article except that it is published earlier.

http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?query=erythropo%C3%ABtine+%22lemond%22&page=1&coll=ddd&identifier=ddd%3A010567280%3Ampeg21%3Aa0475&resultsidentifier=ddd%3A010567280%3Ampeg21%3Aa0475

That having been written, I have no objection seeing the translation of the article republished in the LeMond-thread, where it belongs.

 

[sniper]

again, this thread doesn't offer the platform to discuss or resolve your failure to read.

 

[Nick C.]

What kind of evidence would there be? We can't very well post vials of blood samples. The article is just that an article, at a minimum it is evidence that an article in a Dutch paper was published in 1990(?) musing about EPO and LeMond. So if someone says noone ever suggested Lemond might have used EPO until post-Lance or whatever, this article can be used as evidence to refute that. As evidence that he doped, well that's another story.

 

[sniper]

I don't know if these files have surfaced around here, they probably have. It's the Conconi- files.
I got them from a guy who, like me, tries to investigate the swedish cross country skiing team in the late 80s. (PM me if you've got some info about that).

I hope it's not breaching any code of conduct or something by posting this. Feel free to delete it then, mods.

I'm curious if anyone has access to the full list?
The above screenshot stops right where I thought it might get interesting.

 

[L'arriviste]

I don't know if these files have surfaced around here, they probably have. It's the Conconi- files.
I got them from a guy who, like me, tries to investigate the swedish cross country skiing team in the late 80s. (PM me if you've got some info about that).

I hope it's not breaching any code of conduct or something by posting this. Feel free to delete it then, mods.

I'm curious if anyone has access to the full list?
The above screenshot stops right where I thought it might get interesting.

The files seized from Conconi (including DBLAB, consisting of what the press colourfully called the "Lista Nera") are not publicly available. The list of athletes (minus their haematocrit data) is contained within CONI's 2004 notice of dismissal, of which you can see a transcript here:

http://simonesalvador.blogspot.be/2015/02/il-file-dblab-e-il-doping-anni-80-90-in-italia.html

 

[sniper]

I don't know if these files have surfaced around here, they probably have. It's the Conconi- files.
I got them from a guy who, like me, tries to investigate the swedish cross country skiing team in the late 80s. (PM me if you've got some info about that).

I hope it's not breaching any code of conduct or something by posting this. Feel free to delete it then, mods.

I'm curious if anyone has access to the full list?
The above screenshot stops right where I thought it might get interesting.

The files seized from Conconi (including DBLAB, consisting of what the press colourfully called the "Lista Nera") are not publicly available. The list of athletes (minus their haematocrit data) is contained within CONI's 2004 notice of dismissal, of which you can see a transcript here:

http://simonesalvador.blogspot.be/2015/02/il-file-dblab-e-il-doping-anni-80-90-in-italia.html

Cheers, appreciate it.
But not sure if it's one and the same thing.
That screenshot provided by Dr. Guess contains several names that are not in the transcript.
For instance Riis is not in the transcript, but he's in that screenshot.

 

[L'arriviste]

I don't know if these files have surfaced around here, they probably have. It's the Conconi- files.
I got them from a guy who, like me, tries to investigate the swedish cross country skiing team in the late 80s. (PM me if you've got some info about that).

I hope it's not breaching any code of conduct or something by posting this. Feel free to delete it then, mods.

I'm curious if anyone has access to the full list?
The above screenshot stops right where I thought it might get interesting.

The files seized from Conconi (including DBLAB, consisting of what the press colourfully called the "Lista Nera") are not publicly available. The list of athletes (minus their haematocrit data) is contained within CONI's 2004 notice of dismissal, of which you can see a transcript here:

http://simonesalvador.blogspot.be/2015/02/il-file-dblab-e-il-doping-anni-80-90-in-italia.html

Cheers, appreciate it.
But not sure if it's one and the same thing.
That screenshot provided by Dr. Guess contains several names that are not in the transcript.
For instance Riis is not in the transcript, but he's in that screenshot.

It's difficult to say without knowing the origin of the screenshot, which could be a freeze frame from a 1999 Danish TV documentary on the subject, but just based on the names it looks like this is a mix of data from DBLAB and the Gewiss-Playbus numbers from 1994-1995. These latter were seized in Ferrara but did not become public knowledge until 1999.

 

[sniper]

Cheers, l'arriviste, thanks for expanding.
By any chance do you know if the name of Sciandri surfaces in any of these (or related) files?

 

[L'arriviste]

Re:

Cheers, l'arriviste, thanks for expanding.
By any chance do you know if the name of Sciandri surfaces in any of these (or related) files?

I haven't seen these files but I understand that all the names contained within them are out there, so I am not aware of any mention of Sciandri. His relationship with Cecchini is well documented but as far as I know, the only doctor with whom he has been associated is Bernard Sainz, who has been in the news again this year. Although Sainz is not a real doctor.

 

[Irondan]

This thread has taken a direction that it was never intended to take as it was stickied for posting evidence surrounding the Reasoned Decision but now has been used more recently as a general "evidence" repository. I'm locking this thread until I can clean it up, when that's done I'll unlock it again but it won't be stickied anymore. I will attempt to move any posts that are off topic to their correct threads.