Exploitation

This has been the way for years. Back in the 90s Motorola used to take riders who's wages were paid by someone else.

I think maybe even Shimano used to bankroll Japanese riders onto euro teams.

It's a buyers market out there with more riders than places so you do what you have to do to get a ride and make yourself a more attractive proposal than the next man.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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MarkvW said:
Often, pro cycling teams don't even pay riders the minimum wage.


http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/11/how-uci-minimum-wage-regulations-are-being-broken-by-some-pro-teams/

Pay them poorly and pressure them to dope...
bobbins said:
This has been the way for years. Back in the 90s Motorola used to take riders who's wages were paid by someone else.

I think maybe even Shimano used to bankroll Japanese riders onto euro teams.

It's a buyers market out there with more riders than places so you do what you have to do to get a ride and make yourself a more attractive proposal than the next man.
I thought this article by Wade was a beat-up.

There are about 500 Protour riders. Then about the same div2.

And the sport does not, has never, has/had the business model to underwrite so many professional athletes. Pragmatism and Realism.

This is not the sport you go into for money. It is more akin to a cole miner in the Pennines in the 19th Century, or a silicon miner in the Congo now, or a blood diamonds miner at Paul Sherwen's mine in Rhodesia*

The UCI aint there for OccupationalHealth&Safety, even if they sell that
 
blackcat said:
And the sport does not, has never, has/had the business model to underwrite so many professional athletes. Pragmatism and Realism.
Well, but the point of the article is the UCI claims to make some effort to provide some basic standards and it turns out they don't really do that. And we know the UCI is involved in the operations of the teams, so ignorance is not an excuse.

Since this is the UCI if there is any response, Captain Renault will appear to initiate clearing the matter up. Not paying wages will continue.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
Well, but the point of the article is the UCI claims to make some effort to provide some basic standards and it turns out they don't really do that. And we know the UCI is involved in the operations of the teams, so ignorance is not an excuse.

Since this is the UCI if there is any response, Captain Renault will appear to initiate clearing the matter up. Not paying wages will continue.
Landis never got the money from Mercury Viatel that the UCI had in Aigle as bond

plus, I already mentioned that the UCI sold us a bill of goods
 
Jan 20, 2010
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blackcat said:
I thought this article by Wade was a beat-up.
So did I. I guess it's the start of the slow news period for the next 2-3 months so this is what we get (if one is not into cyclocross).

Was written by SS as well, not Wade.
 
blackcat said:
I thought this article by Wade was a beat-up.

There are about 500 Protour riders. Then about the same div2.

And the sport does not, has never, has/had the business model to underwrite so many professional athletes. Pragmatism and Realism.

This is not the sport you go into for money. It is more akin to a cole miner in the Pennines in the 19th Century, or a silicon miner in the Congo now, or a blood diamonds miner at Paul Sherwen's mine in Rhodesia*

The UCI aint there for OccupationalHealth&Safety, even if they sell that
What? In 2011 Contador was on close to 1 million euro a season while Jon Cantwell had to refund his salary in the exact method described in the article. Luckily for him his family is quite wealthy and he had some decent results as well. Ted King and Cam Wurf were in the same situation their first year at Liquigas because Basso and Nibali took up most of the wage bill and they're just two of many examples.

This goes all the way to the top of the sport, it doesn't just effect Pro Conti support riders.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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42x16ss said:
What? In 2011 Contador was on close to 1 million euro a season while Jon Cantwell had to refund his salary in the exact method described in the article. Luckily for him his family is quite wealthy and he had some decent results as well. Ted King and Cam Wurf were in the same situation their first year at Liquigas because Basso and Nibali took up most of the wage bill and they're just two of many examples.

This goes all the way to the top of the sport, it doesn't just effect Pro Conti support riders.
and in tennis, the top 100 earn good coin, the 100-200 can only afford travel and not a coach, and those outside the top 200 dont earn enough to save a thing.

Cantwell and Wurf, top quality riders imo, still would not be in the top 400 cyclists in my estimation. It is a pity for them that they lay it on the line and work hard for no reward or a negative salary ;) . I agree with this. Hope they win a national tt and a national rr. I think Jono Cantwell already has the crit title, but doubt he is interested in that. And Wurf could snaffle a tt champs if he could have a focus on it and be able to hit a peak in Jan. (which aint as easy as it sounds when he needs to ride for form in Euro summer).

but 42x16 thnx for the contribution
 
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blackcat said:
and in tennis, the top 100 earn good coin, the 100-200 can only afford travel and not a coach, and those outside the top 200 dont earn enough to save a thing.

Cantwell and Wurf, top quality riders imo, still would not be in the top 400 cyclists in my estimation. It is a pity for them that they lay it on the line and work hard for no reward or a negative salary ;) . I agree with this. Hope they win a national tt and a national rr. I think Jono Cantwell already has the crit title, but doubt he is interested in that. And Wurf could snaffle a tt champs if he could have a focus on it and be able to hit a peak in Jan. (which aint as easy as it sounds when he needs to ride for form in Euro summer).

but 42x16 thnx for the contribution
fyi 42x16ss Wurfs old rowing partner in the skulls or two man rowboat, he was Stonnington Mayor in Melbourne to past half dozen years, now in State parliament, and will prolly be Premier of Vic in the next two decades.
 
Dazed and Confused said:
In the off season some of the neo pros end up stuffing mattresses no doubt.
Or wash rental cars after hours.

But it was worse some years back.
It's still worse than many realise now. I know a few riders from a Pro Conti squad who have to work day jobs in the off season, as well as some neo pros at WT level. They are saving like mad for the season ahead because of various shenanigans involving their salaries.

These guys are meant to be "professionals." In other words,getting paid so that they can ride their bikes exclusively. The money is there, just look at what the sports most elite have been earning for quite a few years now. Maybe there needs to be a cap on what a single rider can earn?
 
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42x16ss said:
It's still worse than many realise now. I know a few riders from a Pro Conti squad who have to work day jobs in the off season, as well as some neo pros at WT level. They are saving like mad for the season ahead because of various shenanigans involving their salaries.

These guys are meant to be "professionals." In other words,getting paid so that they can ride their bikes exclusively. The money is there, just look at what the sports most elite have been earning for quite a few years now. Maybe there needs to be a cap on what a single rider can earn?
nah, just look at what SPORT's (generic, every pro sport) what sport's elite have been earning. Like that in every sport. Since Arnold Palmer signed with the founder of IMG and created an inchoate brand of sports person for sale (yeah ok, jesse owens and a few baseballers were sponsored before), but the major monies have gone to a select few.

Tiger is on track to be the second billionaire sportsman behind Michael Jordan. And Lebron James wont be far behind. The money is in the few sponsored athletes who pick up the 50mill per year in endorsements from Nike Buick etc.

Sport has always been about the haves and have nots. Most are not pros cos of the money, because most professional sportsmen in the world, could probably earn better off the pitch. But the sport is existential for them. They dont make the choice.

42, Stokes mentioned in this article, that the pro landscape (economy and revenues this is) is at a nadir.

The irony is, one can slate this home to the confluence of 2008 GFC, and the blowback which is Armstrong nuclear fallout. But Armstrong will probably have about 150million stashed away, and Och and Gorski managed to hide it in UBS anonymous accounts in Zurich.
 
blackcat said:
nah, just look at what SPORT's (generic, every pro sport) what sport's elite have been earning. Like that in every sport. Since Arnold Palmer signed with the founder of IMG and created an inchoate brand of sports person for sale (yeah ok, jesse owens and a few baseballers were sponsored before), but the major monies have gone to a select few.

Tiger is on track to be the second billionaire sportsman behind Michael Jordan. And Lebron James wont be far behind. The money is in the few sponsored athletes who pick up the 50mill per year in endorsements from Nike Buick etc.

Sport has always been about the haves and have nots. Most are not pros cos of the money, because most professional sportsmen in the world, could probably earn better off the pitch. But the sport is existential for them. They dont make the choice.

42, Stokes mentioned in this article, that the pro landscape (economy and revenues this is) is at a nadir.

The irony is, one can slate this home to the confluence of 2008 GFC, and the blowback which is Armstrong nuclear fallout. But Armstrong will probably have about 150million stashed away, and Och and Gorski managed to hide it in UBS anonymous accounts in Zurich.
I have no problem with the current wage disparity, except for the fact that a surprising number of professional riders are living at or below the poverty line while some of their teammates are on massive salaries. I don't think all riders should be paid the same - they shouldn't - however I don't think an athlete who competes for a living should be allowed to live in a situation where they can be struggling for their next meal, especially when their capacity to carry out their chosen occupation can be directly effected.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Feed this (new to me!) info into the risk:reward model and it changes things - for me at any rate.

I am willing to pay $30k to go and race my heart out full-time in Europe on a pro team.

But I won't do anything to improve my chances via doping to get into the properly paid group.

Yeah right.
 
May 18, 2009
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Now the peanut gallery believes higher pay = no doping. Or, is some type of socialized peloton the answer? :rolleyes: Yes, that always works out well.

Too bad people don't have a choice on what profession they are forced into. :rolleyes:
 
ChrisE said:
Now the peanut gallery believes higher pay = no doping. Or, is some type of socialized peloton the answer? :rolleyes: Yes, that always works out well.

Too bad people don't have a choice on what profession they are forced into. :rolleyes:
That's ridiculous, of course riders will dope regardless. Nobody is saying that riders should all be on massive salaries, just that they should be getting a working wage that lets riders do their job without distractions like wondering where their next meal is coming from or how they are getting to races.

What would you say if your boss expected you to refund your salary? I bet it wouldn't be "Oh well, at least it's giving me a chance!"
 
May 18, 2009
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42x16ss said:
That's ridiculous, of course riders will dope regardless. Nobody is saying that riders should all be on massive salaries, just that they should be getting a working wage that lets riders do their job without distractions like wondering where their next meal is coming from or how they are getting to races.

What would you say if your boss expected you to refund your salary? I bet it wouldn't be "Oh well, at least it's giving me a chance!"
Fortunately, I have a job where I knew going in that I wasn't expected to 'refund my salary'....whatever kind of job that is. Do you feel those pressures? You work under the pressure of some type of retroactive performance deduction? My apologies, but maybe you should have done some research beforehand.

Yes, if everybody had a working wage then doping would be less. We are back to the poor victim riders, who always have a choice in whether they dope or what they choose to do with their life. Doping is a 'distraction', eliminated by a working wage. Whatever. This whole conversation just proves some of you don't have a clue.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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ChrisE said:
Now the peanut gallery believes higher pay = no doping. Or, is some type of socialized peloton the answer? :rolleyes: Yes, that always works out well.

Too bad people don't have a choice on what profession they are forced into. :rolleyes:
Said noone ever.
 
May 18, 2009
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Dear Wiggo said:
Or your life is quite staid and you never chased a dream.

Sounds a bit dull.
Chase a dream where I knew beforehand I had to dope or break rules to succeed? Sounds like more of a self induced nightmare.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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ChrisE said:
Chase a dream where I knew beforehand I had to dope or break rules to succeed? Sounds like more of a self induced nightmare.
Wait what!?

But but.

JV shared his insight into the pro peloton! It's all clean ... er ... cleaner now. Clean riders can win GTs and monuments!!

We're talking kids. I do not begrudge them chasing their dream. I certainly don't hold this level of disdain that seems to be coming across in your posts. I don't mind them having a whinge that the reality is far from what the UCI et al would portray. You should definitly get some gravy. Goes great with chips. ;)
 
May 18, 2009
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Dear Wiggo said:
Wait what!?

But but.

JV shared his insight into the pro peloton! It's all clean ... er ... cleaner now. Clean riders can win GTs and monuments!!

We're talking kids. I do not begrudge them chasing their dream. I certainly don't hold this level of disdain that seems to be coming across in your posts. I don't mind them having a whinge that the reality is far from what the UCI et al would portray. You should definitly get some gravy. Goes great with chips. ;)
"Kids" need to face reality eventually. When is that? 18? 21?

As much **** as you talk in here about doping, don't tell me you give a pass on the dumb**** routine when choosing what to do with your life.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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ChrisE said:
"Kids" need to face reality eventually. When is that? 18? 21?

As much **** as you talk in here about doping, don't tell me you give a pass on the dumb**** routine when choosing what to do with your life.
As someone at the other end of my life exploring new employment possibilities, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

In the entrepreneurial world, these kids are doing what every other startup are doing, and for me it's what keeps me alive. Dreaming, pursuing those dreams, etc. Seeking to carve out your own niche.

That's a shame you don't get that. But I still enjoy reading your posts. That Bluenote rejoinder about time travel being required for position recognition was a pearler.
 
May 18, 2009
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Dear Wiggo said:
As someone at the other end of my life exploring new employment possibilities, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

In the entrepreneurial world, these kids are doing what every other startup are doing, and for me it's what keeps me alive. Dreaming, pursuing those dreams, etc. Seeking to carve out your own niche.

That's a shame you don't get that. But I still enjoy reading your posts. That Bluenote rejoinder about time travel being required for position recognition was a pearler.
We are misunderstanding eachother. I'm talking about cycling.

Choosing to explore things in life and looking for new opportunities is not the same as making a conscious decision to enter a profession that is full of doping and rule breaking. I am sure you are not doing that, to the extent you can research.

Doping in cycling is not something that sneaks up on you after your life is set down that path.

Bluenote - he is so wrapped up on nit-picking he *****es at me about something he posts as a response to my post, like I was supposed to know that. Vortex wanna be.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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ChrisE said:
We are misunderstanding eachother. I'm talking about cycling.

Choosing to explore things in life and looking for new opportunities is not the same as making a conscious decision to enter a profession that is full of doping and rule breaking. I am sure you are not doing that, to the extent you can research.
The environment of politics and business, IME and IMO is no different to the cycling environment. It comes back to human nature, and if you can cheat and break rules, and get away with it, people will.

Exploitation happens in all 3, often surprisingly to the naive. Wallmart employees having to strike for minimum wage, UK politicians shredding all the expense account documents pre-2010, effectively closing the corruption investigation.

No difference at a metaphorical level.

I don't want to argue, so I'll leave it there.

At least the guys can empathise with the women, who are not even offered the under the table opportunity.
 

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