Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[KoopaCycling]

I don't think Remco did anything wrong in truth yesterday. Some stuff was not ideal but safety wise no mistakes were made as far as i'm aware. Unless deciding to stay close to the red bull bora train can be counted as a mistake.

@CyclistAbi
I re-checked stage 1. After the echelon was made, soudal immediately put their men in front. Van Lernberghe (Merlier leadout) working immediately. Alongside Lidl and Bora. The only ones that did not work were the team leaders. (Remco, Roglic, Merlier, Skjelmose). I guess the tactics mistake was not having the team leaders pull as well. But the helpers did. So your point is mostly moot.

 

[Red Rick]

Not saying they shouldn't have brought him, I don't have strong feelings about it, but obviously there's always controversy when a team splits focus between stage wins and GC.

There shouldn't really be. For most teams bringing 1 leader with a full team dedicated to him is kind of nonsense, and it only really makes sense for Visma and UAE, and even they simply have so much firepower that in case of emergency they lock up 3-4 more top 10 spots between them.

And it should work with Evenepoel and Merlier especially because Merlier can only do flat sprints and because he's one of the 2 best in the world at that, so focus is never split within a stage.

Bora bringing Meeus is different because Meeus may be the 10th best sprinter on a good day. Van Aert in turn is different because his own objectives consistently clash with Vingegaards, usually because going for Van Aert's stage wins involves Pogacar taking more bonus seconds.

 

[Berniece]

Van Aert in turn is different because his own objectives consistently clash with Vingegaards, usually because going for Van Aert's stage wins involves Pogacar taking more bonus seconds.

Which Van Aert compensates with the work he does for Vinegegaard of course. Not really comparable with what Meeus or Merlier could do for Evenepoel.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@CyclistAbi
I re-checked stage 1. After the echelon was made, soudal immediately put their men in front. Van Lernberghe (Merlier leadout) working immediately. Alongside Lidl and Bora. The only ones that did not work were the team leaders. (Remco, Roglic, Merlier, Skjelmose). I guess the tactics mistake was not having the team leaders pull as well. But the helpers did. So your point is mostly moot.

As you went and rewatched and if you had to guess on what were they doing, the way they rode. Were they trying to bring sprinters back, to sprint, or save GC riders from losing time?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Merlier is the best sprinter in the world. There are 5 sprinter stages, potentially 6, so of course you include him when you 'only' have the third favorite. And what are you bringing instead? Most pack fodder who will get dropped anyway and not be super useful when you don't have Landa anyway.

Meeus was plan B because Roglic has a tendency of crashing, especially in this race. They don't want a scenario where Roglic is out and then all you have is domestiques who barely can chase stages for themselves. Had he not had a habit of crashing, he would not even be here in the first place because he's not as good as Merlier. So thats sensible as well, although more debateable since you also have Lipo this year and Meeus is relatively far off Merlier's level. But he could easily have fluked another TdF win, and he has looked good recently.

Remember, its not like UAE is 100% for Pog and Visma 100% for Jonas. If that was the case, why did Adam ride for a podium in 2023 and why did Almeida also ride for himself in certain stages last year where it was mostly Adam doing the setups? In UAE's case, because comitting 100% to Pog in 2023 wouldn't have mattered, so getting another podium is quite valuable, and in 2024, because Almeida could focus a bit more on himself since Pog was so dominating. You could say you want riders staying relevant in GC, but Yates and Almeida were never threats of being used tactically at all. Thats not how it works when Vingegaard and Pog are 2 levels above the rest. One pedal stroke and they are caught. And what happens in case of your leader crashing?

Visma is a bit different, you have WVA who you need to give personal freedom in exchange of him staying on your team, but also comitting 100% on most other stages. The satellite job he did in 2022 was absolutely insane and impacted the race heavily. For example, I think Visma and Jonas should have taken it a step further and on Granon and Jonas should have dropped himself on Galibier, knowing that he had WVA to bait Pog into going 100% in the valley OR made an all-in attack there to really use him. No matter what, Pog had him in mind though, and thats why he was so scared in the first place to let them go from afar. Cobbled stage he probably saved Jonas at least a minute. Dropped Pog on Hautacam. WVA was an absolutely huge player in Jonas winning in 2022 and if my analysis is right that Pog lets Roglic go if Wout isn't there on Granon, I think Pog wins. Same thing happened on Cauterets in 2023 where Jonas again couldn't deal the final blow, because if he could drop him on Tourmalet, the Tour is over.. turned out to be over anyways, but even if you get dropped, you just get a free ride back from WVA. Thats just huge.

Every team has multiple riders with personal ambitions and there's absolutely nothing wrong about it IMO.

 

[KoopaCycling]

As you went and rewatched and if you had to guess on what were they doing, the way they rode. Were they trying to bring sprinters back, to sprint, or save GC riders from losing time?

They were riding to close the gap as much as possible. Trying to bring sprinter back, or save GC rider holds no difference on this flat stage. This was not uphill battle where they need to make sure merlier can follow. On a flat stage they can go as hard as they can without worry for either sprinter (merlier) or their GC rider (Remco). Merlier is no pancake on the flat, and the same holds true for remco. He ain't like some climbers who can't go that hard on the flat. So them going as fast they can is what they did. They bringing the sprinter back or GC rider losing time question in that situation is irrelevant. Either way the answer is to floor it as hard as they can which is what they did. I'm not sure were you think there is a difference on that stage on that parcours in that situation.

Also soudal comments were all about Remco, barely a word was mentioned about Merlier. So their priorities are clear enough. If they ever came to a situation where they needed to decide, they would chose remco. This was not a situation where they needed to decide.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Valv.Piti

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If i read correctly yesterday team boss said Remco is here to win the Tour, not to finish third. As for you saying UAE and Visma, that for them it doesn't make any sense to bring in a sprinter. I agree. Acting like bringing a sprinter didn't cost Remco nothing in first three stages, it did. Some time and potentially a crash, that might have been prevented otherwise.

@KoopaCycling

We had this same discussion with @Berniece. The idea on how the best strategy is for them both to finish together at the finish line, holding hands, that is indeed a nice outcome, the reality on the other hand being it doesn't tend to work like that. On sprint stages GC leader needs a dedicated and attentive team to support them, not top notch sprinter. It's nice and everything, seeing Remco going all out for his sprinter but from GC point of view this is amateurish approach.

As for Rogla indeed, the main argument, social media, was lets bring a sprinter, as Rogla crashes a lot. Some even advocated for a bunch of youngsters going loose. Like that somehow will magically bring them stage wins. Jeez.

 

[yaco]

He could be replaced with someone who could help Remco.

Remco has enough riders to help him. Unless you are Pogacar or Vingegaard GC rider, you will never have a full team dedicated to your service. Even Jumbo let VWA off the leash at times.

 

[yaco]

So you think having solid mountain support wouldn't be useful? Why consider switching teams at all then? Soudal has all Remco needs to win a Tour. Unfortunately, 99.9 percent think that's not the case. Must be a bunch of cavemen, huh?

Its not going to help him when you have the aliens in Pogi and Vingegaard riding the TDF. As it stands, Remco had Landa at the 2024 TDF who did an excellent job and there is little you can do if Landa is injured. Ideally, you need two support climbers at Landa's level, however, they are hard to find. At the end of the day you need to go when Pogi and Vingegaard go.

 

[AmRacer]

Remco has enough riders to help him. Unless you are Pogacar or Vingegaard GC rider, you will never have a full team dedicated to your service. Even Jumbo let VWA off the leash at times.

Maybe the 'missing' rider could've closed the gap stage 1.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Maybe the 'missing' rider could've closed the gap stage 1.

Making a 40 second difference? Are we talking about cloning Remco here?

 

[yaco]

Maybe the 'missing' rider could've closed the gap stage 1.

Its not like three quarters of the peleton missed the move because they were sleeping.

 

[AmRacer]

Its not like three quarters of the peleton missed the move because they were sleeping.

It wasn't not enough fire power in that three quarters

 

[AmRacer]

Making a 40 second difference? Are we talking about cloning Remco here?

Never let it be 40 seconds. 20 is better than 40.

 

[AmRacer]

Any news how Remco feels after the crash?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Making a 40 second difference? Are we talking about cloning Remco here?

8 Remcos would get in to heated arguments with themselves.

 

[CyclistAbi]

If we look at UAE and Visma, Ayuso was basically cancelled, due to supposedly not making a pull long enough, van Aert was thrashed by team leaders wife, due to team supporting multiple goals. That is the reality of an AAA GT GC orientated team competing at the Tour.

Then we come to SOQ and RBH and people start claiming on how bringing mountain support is a bad thing and not really needed and multiple goals are somehow a good thing, regarding GC. Just beyond.

 

[SHAD0W93]

If we look at UAE and Visma, Ayuso was basically cancelled, due to supposedly not making a pull long enough, van Aert was thrashed by team leaders wife, due to team supporting multiple goals. That is the reality of an AAA GT GC orientated team competing at the Tour.

Then we come to SOQ and RBH and people start claiming on how bringing mountain support is a bad thing and not really needed and multiple goals are somehow a good thing, regarding GC. Just beyond.

That’s a very poor description of apples and oranges.

 

[Berniece]

8 Remcos would get in to heated arguments with themselves.

8 riders that always could've won the race

 

[Miss Violet Smith]

Every team has multiple riders with personal ambitions and there's absolutely nothing wrong about it IMO.

Whenever I hear that UAE is fully committed to their captain(s), I keep in mind that they sent Molano to the 2024 Giro.

Which turned out just fine.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Whenever I hear that UAE is fully committed to their captain(s), I keep in mind that they sent Molano to the 2024 Giro.

Which turned out just fine.

It did. However, i think that was a weird selection since he's a C tier sprinter, and I don't think you select those with Pog on the team no matter the race.

 

[Berniece]

During a pre-race interview, CEO of SOQ said: "At most some abrasions, but nothing to worry about. He also had a good night. Everything is fine with Remco"

 

[rghysens]

During a pre-race interview, CEO of SOQ said: "At most some abrasions, but nothing to worry about. He also had a good night. Everything is fine with Remco"

Which they also said after his crash in the Dauphiné a few weeks ago and after his crash in the vuelta he won, as Logic pointed out a few messages ago.
Everything that is said by someone of a cycling team can be a lie (or not).

 

[Stablo]

If Remco were to be on UAE or Visma, and say Pog and Vingo on other teams, would he have enough to win the Tour? Would Pog and Vingo be the riders they are now if they were on other teams? I'm not so sure.

I think they wouldn't be on the same level and yes Remco would have a chance against them. Why i believe like this, belongs more to the clinic than here.

 

[Berniece]

Which they also said after his crash in the Dauphiné a few weeks ago and after his crash in the vuelta he won, as Logic pointed out a few messages ago.
Everything that is said by someone of a cycling team can be a lie (or not).

I'm just quoting, not making a statement myself