Fat burn, muscle gain?

[chairvelo]

So I have been ballooning up recently and decided to get things back into some semblance of a man-like shape.

A couple of weeks back I started cycling 25km a day, and have done that routine for 6 days in each of the last two week, with one day off in each. On the off days I did just 10km as bit of a relaxer

I'm also doing calorie counts, which is something that helped me lose about 20kg (about 44lb) in 4-5 months 10 years ago.

First 2-3 days was hard, I mean hard. It took me two hours, I had a massive headache, I drank about a liter of water en route and stopped 4-5 times. By the start of the second week I could do the 25km in just over an hour, and don't really feel the need to drink and I don't stop. By the end of the week under an hour is normal, I've started to focus on higher gears and higher average speed, to generate more calorie burn (rather than longer rides - comments welcome on that approach). And I want a faster bike.

In the 14 days I've dropped just over 4 kg (about 9lb); most days I am under my combined calorie need (BMR + exercise) by about 1500 kcals, which should give me circa 1.5kg loss a week, plus say a kilo for the initial bloat factor. And I'm starting to feel a little better - tighter etc.

And here's my question: despite the calorie balance being right where I need it to be, I feel like I am hitting a wall in weight loss. Last time I lost weight I didn't do the cycling part, and every day there was a gradual decline. I'm not seeing the daily loss right now, and I am wondering if I am losing the fat but gaining muscle tissue, esp. in the legs?

I have pretty solid legs, and they burned like a hogroast the first week, but now I feel like they are gently simmering and not suffering all that much. 25km is pretty easy in an hour, and I'm looking to see what to do next to take it up a notch.

Any thoughts/comments/experience welcome.

Chairvelo.

 

[JayKosta]

I think you are doing the proper things.

There probably is some muscle growth, and also water retention due to sore muscles. Don't try to reduce water while riding - it is required for good physical functioning.

The key item for weight loss is calorie reduction, and you are already doing that.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[42x16ss]

It's not just about the scales, got to take your waist and the mirror into account. Because you are trimming up through exercise as well as diet there will be some muscle gain involved as jaykosta said above.

Relax, enjoy your riding and change it up to keep things interesting. Above all, well done!

 

[Master50]

You are doing the right things by controlling calories and increasing activity but you are trying too hard. Slow down. 500 grams of fat a week is going to be much safer and likely have a more permanent effect. Once the weight is off you then need calorie balance but the trick is do not let your body think you are starving it or as soon as you start to normalize your diet that your body will scavenge calories and you will actually train your body to get fat again. Permanent weight loss is teaching your body to work at a reduced mass. sudden and too fast weight loss teaches your body to adapt to starvation.
Second most obvious point. exercise increases muscle mass ( avery good thing) but muscles are heavier than fat so you are likely seeing the increase of muscle beating the loss of fat. As is suggested monitor your fat and not the scales.

 

[chairvelo]

You are doing the right things by controlling calories and increasing activity but you are trying too hard. Slow down.

Thanks for your comments.

You are right, and I know this is going off fast. I did intend to slow down after the first 30 days - my personality requires me to see something worth continuing, so I need to get that initial hit before settling into a softer routine. But now I am not so sure; I am actually finding it quite easy, and the daily schedule of about an hour at lunch is becoming normality.

Last week, according to MapMyRide, I racked up 162km in 8 hours cycling, about 25km a day plus that 10km rest day. That effort is just over 8000kcals, and on the food side I managed to stay un-hungry and be under by about 3500kcals. But the weight needle is only just starting to flutter downwards again today; I can actually feel the thigh muscles getting bigger - my pants seem to be smaller there and bigger at the waist...

Meanwhile, in other areas of my pants that hold what is left of my wallet, I had a look at an S-Works Roubaix and Trek Madone... stand back, this could get expensive.

 

[sciguy]

Last week, according to MapMyRide, I racked up 162km in 8 hours cycling, about 25km a day plus that 10km rest day. That effort is just over 8000kcals,

Chairvelo,

Congratulations on a great start to improving your health! One thing that looks somewhat amiss is the 8000kcal value assigned for the cycling 162km. If your cycling efficiency is quite typical, it would require you to be working at a rate of 1000/3.6 or 278 watts to expend that much energy per hour. At my weight of ~ 80kg that would easily propel me along at over 40km/hr. I'm guessing you're a bit heavier but probably not enough require that much calorie burn for 20km/hour cycling. What ever the case, as long as the needle on the scale keeps going in the right direction you're on the correct path.

Keep up the good work

Hugh

 

[chairvelo]

One thing that looks somewhat amiss is the 8000kcal value assigned for the cycling 162km. If your cycling efficiency is quite typical, it would require you to be working at a rate of 1000/3.6 or 278 watts to expend that much energy per hour. At my weight of ~ 80kg that would easily propel me along at over 40km/hr. I'm guessing you're a bit heavier.

Hi Hugh, thanks for responding, appreciate it.

I have stopped quoting my weight in kilos, now it is in fractions of a metric tonne...

I am a smidgeon over 0.101 tonne and just over 6' tall. I am also mid-40's.

I'm not sure about the calories. I'm getting the number 8053 kcals directly from the MapMyRide summary, and it seems to be similar to other sites/apps I have looked up.

I don't have a power meter, just a VDO speedometer on the bike, but there are some long sections of the ride (about 12-13km) that are very flat, straight and quiet, and I can pump along at about 25-30kph for quite sustained periods on the biggest chainring but not quite the smallest gear on the cassette (very old Trek Y33 mountain bike). In other sections I get stopped by traffic lights and have to work through several corners which cuts the speed and also reduces the average I guess.

Looking back over the workout history just now I have noticed the energy output per ride has gone up since I started to be able to hit those higher speeds on the flat. I was not able to crank at that speed 2-3 weeks ago, and wasn't at those calories burns in the first few rides; my third day of pain for same course was at 17kph for just 891 kcals, but today the same course and distance at 22kph unlocked 1145 kcal. Again not my numbers, all from the app, which I take (probably naively) at face value.

If you think those are off I would genuinely be interested to know what you think is right, I'm interested in the study. I'd also be interested to understand your wattage calculations.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Regards

Chairvelo

 

[JayKosta]

Accurately determining the amount of 'calories burned' during a ride (and day) is difficult.
You would probably do quite well by just limiting the amount you eat to what is NEEDED (based on your own perception), and to avoid situations of eating for pleasure. Also, find some resonably low-calorie food for those times when you want a snack - e.g. seasoned rice / beans, boiled potato, pasta with plain sauce, etc.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[sciguy]

If you think those are off I would genuinely be interested to know what you think is right, I'm interested in the study. I'd also be interested to understand your wattage calculations.
Chairvelo

Chairvelo,

If you search accuracy of MMR calorie data you'll find pretty much all the threads echo to the one below where the common theme is that it overestimates by a factor of 1.5 to as much as 2 times the actual Calories.

http://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/453284-mapmyride-com-calorie-calculation-accuracy.html

If you ride with an accurate power meter it's easy to get a reasonable estimate of calories burned by looking at the kilojoules of work done for the ride. Working at a rate of one watt per second yields one Joule of work. Since there are 60 X 60 or 3600 seconds in an hour, working at one watt for an hour yields 3600 Joules or 3.6 kJ of work. Since one Calorie equals 4.2 kJs you might think you could just divide the kJ of work done on the ride by ~4 and know Calories burned but that would not take into account one's efficiency of producing the work. Humans have efficiencies of only about 18% to 24% in converting their chemical energy into the work of cycling so at best they only see ~1/4 of the energy they use get converted to cycling work. So if we multiply 4.2 X .24 we end up with ~ 1 kJ of work per Calorie burned in producing the work. If one is less efficient it would be greater.

Beyond the math, working at 277 watts for an hour would be incredibly difficult for a newish, 40 year old cyclist in their first year of training no matter what portion of a metric tonne they were currently carrying Think of it as something like running a 6 minute mile.

I think Jay gave great advice. Adjust the food to keep the scale moving in the proper direction. Keep healthy low calorie foods around at all times and get rid of all the temptation junk food in the house.

Have fun and stay safe.

Hugh

 

[chairvelo]

If you search accuracy of MMR calorie data you'll find pretty much all the threads echo to the one below where the common theme is that it overestimates by a factor of 1.5 to as much as 2 times the actual Calories.

This is a Steve Jobs moment. It changes everything...

If you ride with an accurate power meter it's easy to get a reasonable estimate of calories burned by looking at the kilojoules of work done for the ride. Working at a rate of one watt per second yields one Joule of work. Since there are 60 X 60 or 3600 seconds in an hour, working at one watt for an hour yields 3600 Joules or 3.6 kJ of work. Since one Calorie equals 4.2 kJs you might think you could just divide the kJ of work done on the ride by ~4 and know Calories burned but that would not take into account one's efficiency of producing the work. Humans have efficiencies of only about 18% to 24% in converting their chemical energy into the work of cycling so at best they only see ~1/4 of the energy they use get converted to cycling work. So if we multiply 4.2 X .24 we end up with ~ 1 kJ of work per Calorie burned in producing the work. If one is less efficient it would be greater.

Thanks for that explanation, that is actuallly quite useful to know. Can you recommend a power meter? If I am going to get a flashy new machine I might as well get some useful measurement from it as well.

Beyond the math, working at 277 watts for an hour would be incredibly difficult for a newish, 40 year old cyclist in their first year of training no matter what portion of a metric tonne they were currently carrying Think of it as something like running a 6 minute mile.

What is this "running" thing you speak of?

I think Jay gave great advice. Adjust the food to keep the scale moving in the proper direction. Keep healthy low calorie foods around at all times and get rid of all the temptation junk food in the house.

For sure, I know that side of the game very well - I also race formula racing cars and end up getting fat in Autumn and Winter and losing (annually, and I am not exaggerating) 10kg-15kg every spring. But I do that usually just by stopping all the crap food in January, surviving on about 1400-1600kcals a day (1200 is my starvation zone) for 3-4 months, not by riding a bike, so that's where I would like to know more. I've been doing that since my 20's. It's healthy for half the year...

Have fun and stay safe.

Hugh

Thanks for the inputs, most helpful.

 

[sciguy]

Thanks for that explanation, that is actually quite useful to know. Can you recommend a power meter? If I am going to get a flashy new machine I might as well get some useful measurement from it as well.

The power meter market has really exploded over the past couple of years with one side benefit to consumers being a trend towards a decrease in price at least for the less expensive units. In order of approximate increasing price you will find Stages, Power2max, Powertap, Garmin Vector, Quarq and SRM all with avid supporters as well as some detractors. If you're a numbers kind of guy and it sounds as if you are, the feedback you will obtain from a power meter can be extremely motivational. You'll get a much more accurate Calorie burn estimate and be able to see if you're riding with more power or just going faster or slower due to the conditions of the day. If by some chance you have disdain for numbers and or electronic gadgets you'd be better served to avoid power meters all together. I've been training with power for 15+ years and still find it shows me new and interesting things on a regular basis.

Hugh

 

[elapid]

The power meter market has really exploded over the past couple of years with a one side benefit to consumers being a trend towards a decrease in price at least for the less expensive units. In order of approximate increasing price you will find Stages, Power2max, Powertap, Garmin Vector, Quarq and SRM all with avid supporters as well as some detractors. If you're a numbers kind of guy and it sounds as if you are, the feedback you will obtain from a power meter can be extremely motivational. You'll get a much more accurate Calorie burn estimate and be able to see if you're riding with more power or just going faster or slower due to the conditions of the day. If by some chance you have disdain for numbers and or electronic gadgets you'd be better served to avoid power meters all together. I've been training with power for 15+ years and still find it shows me new and interesting things on a regular basis.

Hugh

+1. One other consideration in PM choice is the number of bikes and/or wheels you have. Crank-based systems are good for one bike regardless of the number of wheels you use; while hub-based systems (PowerTap) are good if you have multiple bikes that you like to use because you can use the same rear wheel on all bikes (but you're limited to a single wheel choice if you want to use power). Based on what you have described about yourself (one bike, one wheel set), the choice of PM may actually depend on what you intend to do with cycling in the future.

 

[SteveT]

Hi
Sorry not read all of the thread so sorry if repeating other comments.
I have over the years made many come backs to cycling to quite a high level from pretty much zero.
I always have a lot of weight to lose and I am always frustrated at a lack of weight loss for quite some time despite dieting and banging in the miles.

I have just a few weeks ago started another come back and needed to lose at least 10Kgs to reach any kind of race weight.

My training consists of first getting in a base of at least 2K miles and I do this on as flat a terrain as I can and work to a heart rate to stay in zone 2 as much as possible. At the same time I am dieting to the point of discomfort at times.

And yet I always wonder why my weight can actually go up? Or then it can suddenly drop a big chunk.

Well somebody pointed me at this
http://www.acefitness.org/acefit/he...why-do-i-seem-to-gain-weight-when-i-start-to/

A good explanation of muscle hypertrophy

 

[chairvelo]

If you're a numbers kind of guy and it sounds as if you are, the feedback you will obtain from a power meter can be extremely motivational. You'll get a much more accurate Calorie burn estimate and be able to see if you're riding with more power or just going faster or slower due to the conditions of the day.
Hugh

I am fully bought into accurate data.

I had a look at the brands you mentioned, I think I will only have the one bike to worry about so a crank-based system looks appropriate rather than the PowerTap hub. I guess I am semi-shocked though that a strain gauge sensor goes for $1600+...

 

[chairvelo]

My training consists of first getting in a base of at least 2K miles and I do this on as flat a terrain as I can and work to a heart rate to stay in zone 2 as much as possible. At the same time I am dieting to the point of discomfort at times.

And yet I always wonder why my weight can actually go up? Or then it can suddenly drop a big chunk.

I have seen something close to this pattern.

I had an initial loss in the first 10-14 days then it seemed to stabilize for a 10-14 days without any loss, which is very different to the pure dietary program I usually follow. Under diet alone there may sometimes be 2-3 days without loss but by the 4th day I see a jump of several hundred grammes.

This time with 20-25km a day cycling as well as calorie restriction I saw a weight plateau after the initial 10 days - I think I was still losing weight as usual by dieting but somehow balancing it out through weight gains from cycling. Hence this thread, and your answer gives me some useful insight into the underlying mechanism behind that observation.

I seemed to stay on that weight plateau for about 10 days. Now, just finishing my 4th week, the weight loss is back on a straight line again - I am starting to see circa 1kg a week weight loss again, with noticeable daily decrements of 200-300 grammes. It is also physically noticeable that my thigh muscles are big inside some pants now, I can actually feel the difference in size.

Bottom line is that after 4 weeks cycling and dieting I have lost 5Kg and feel quite strong in the legs and certainly fitter overall. I expect to continue the 1kg a week pattern for the next month, and will certainly keep up the cycling, even though it is raining the entire week here in the Alps...

 

[sciguy]

I am fully bought into accurate data.

I had a look at the brands you mentioned, I think I will only have the one bike to worry about so a crank-based system looks appropriate rather than the PowerTap hub. I guess I am semi-shocked though that a strain gauge sensor goes for $1600+...

Yes one can even spend as much as $3000+ for an SRM. The Gossamer version of the Power2max is just a bit less than $1000 shipped to us here in the US but we are not charged a VAT so that helps. If you're based in Europe I'd imagine that might well be your best option for a new unit. A used SRM especially a wired unit can often be purchased for ~ $500 or so.

 

[SteveT]

I have seen something close to this pattern.

Bottom line is that after 4 weeks cycling and dieting I have lost 5Kg and feel quite strong in the legs and certainly fitter overall. I expect to continue the 1kg a week pattern for the next month, and will certainly keep up the cycling, even though it is raining the entire week here in the Alps...

1Kg a week is a pretty good result, especially for short rides as 25kms per ride.
You did ask in your OP about increasing the distance. I would say this depends on your ambitions. If weight loss is your primary motivation then you seem to be doing as well as can be expected and there is no real need to increase distance unless weight loss drops off. Though extra mileage means increased calorie use and so weight loss would be expected to be greater if calorie intake remains the same.

If you wish to enjoy your cycling more or to ride any events or with a group then you should perhaps now start to increase distance. 50kms would be a good distance at least twice a week with other rides remaining at 25kms. After another month start to build at least one ride a week to 100kms plus with a maybe two or three at 50kms.

For example

Sunday: 100kms
Monday: Rest
Tuesday: 50kms
Wedneday: Rest
Thursday: 50kms
Friday:30Kms
Saturday: 30kms

It may help you if you have a local club and can go on group rides with similar ability riders, it can elp with motivation and prevent boredom from training.

After a few more weeks if you wish to be in anyway competetive, even in a non race scenario you could have a program such as:

Sunday: 100 to 150kms, hard group ride or hilly terrain (or event)
Mon: 10 to 20kms easy spin (recovery ride)
Tue: 50 kms with sprints
Wed: 80kms steady (zone 2)
Thursday: 50kms with ierval training or hard group ride
Friday: 30kms easy spin
Saturday: 30 to 50kms easy spin with just 2 or 3 short flat out sprints.

Of course the above depends on many factors such as time restrains due to lifestyle and motivation but with such a programme you would certainly reach a good 'race weight' and fitness level

 

[chairvelo]

1Kg a week is a pretty good result, especially for short rides as 25kms per ride.

I think it is fine as well. What is noticeable is the fitness level has improved quite quickly, as well as the weight dropping. That was to be expected I guess, but it is still quite delightful.

If you wish to enjoy your cycling more or to ride any events or with a group then you should perhaps now start to increase distance. 50kms would be a good distance at least twice a week with other rides remaining at 25kms. After another month start to build at least one ride a week to 100kms plus with a maybe two or three at 50kms.

For example

Sunday: 100kms
Monday: Rest
Tuesday: 50kms
Wedneday: Rest
Thursday: 50kms
Friday:30Kms
Saturday: 30kms

Thta's a nice schedule. I have started to build in 1-2 30kms a week now, it is not really that much further in the end beyond 25km. I think I will get there, but 50km seems like a stretch at the moment. Maybe in a month or two?

It may help you if you have a local club and can go on group rides with similar ability riders, it can elp with motivation and prevent boredom from training.

I have considered that, maybe in another couple of months, but I don't really get bored, it gives me time to think. And I listen to the Velo Club Don Logan podcasts.

I have tried out a new Spec. Roubaix Pro bike today, just to see what the delta is, and although the position they want me to take is a bit squashed for my liking and made my legs sore, the speeds were noticeably faster comparing same route on very similar weather days (sunny, dry, 30C, light constant wind). Here's a back-to-back of sector speeds:-

I didn't really notice any remarkably higher effort to attain those speeds, and I feel that with a modern bike like a Domane or a Roubaix or Gran Fondo you can probably soak up the klicks fairly easily; even the little climbs I normally puff over were fairly banal with that Roubaix. I actually feel I could have gone better (in the sense more consistently faster) if I was in a more comfortable position than the bike shop installed. That speed differential might also make it easier to get to distances of 50km in a month or two, let's see.

I really appreciate your comments about competition, but I don't think I will have time for that - family and a fairly busy career lock it down to about 1 hour a day, maybe 2 on a weekend for the longer rides (unless it's a motor race, in which case I get a day pass). I guess never say never but it's unlikely.

 

[SteveT]

I think it is fine as well. What is noticeable is the fitness level has improved quite quickly, as well as the weight dropping. That was to be expected I guess, but it is still quite delightful.



Thta's a nice schedule. I have started to build in 1-2 30kms a week now, it is not really that much further in the end beyond 25km. I think I will get there, but 50km seems like a stretch at the moment. Maybe in a month or two?



I have considered that, maybe in another couple of months, but I don't really get bored, it gives me time to think. And I listen to the Velo Club Don Logan podcasts.

I have tried out a new Spec. Roubaix Pro bike today, just to see what the delta is, and although the position they want me to take is a bit squashed for my liking and made my legs sore, the speeds were noticeably faster comparing same route on very similar weather days (sunny, dry, 30C, light constant wind). Here's a back-to-back of sector speeds:-

I didn't really notice any remarkably higher effort to attain those speeds, and I feel that with a modern bike like a Domane or a Roubaix or Gran Fondo you can probably soak up the klicks fairly easily; even the little climbs I normally puff over were fairly banal with that Roubaix. I actually feel I could have gone better (in the sense more consistently faster) if I was in a more comfortable position than the bike shop installed. That speed differential might also make it easier to get to distances of 50km in a month or two, let's see.

I really appreciate your comments about competition, but I don't think I will have time for that - family and a fairly busy career lock it down to about 1 hour a day, maybe 2 on a weekend for the longer rides (unless it's a motor race, in which case I get a day pass). I guess never say never but it's unlikely.

Yes modern bikes are a pleasure to ride, in 2011 after a 17 year lay off I started training on an old steel bike. This I soon changed for a new carbon model and the difference was quite spectacular in feel.

Just be sure you are happy with the position before buying a bike though, better to walk away and buy another day. It may be worth going to a specialist who can do you a Retul (or similar) bike fit https://www.retul.com/
You say you felt cramped on the Roubaix so if you felt it there is something of concern as your rides get longer.
Something like a longer stem may sort this but a specialist can advise.

Anyway, judging by your comments I would say build yourself up to that second schedule of mine and your weight will find its natural level and you will be at a very nice fitness level too.

 

[chairvelo]

Just maybe a quick update after 6-7 weeks now? I am not sure if it is interesting but maybe it helps somebody else.

Well I am getting to it pretty regularly, 4-5 rides a week, over 100Km a week on average, and the total distance is starting to inch closer to 1000km:-

I guess I will hit 1K by August.

I am using both Strava as well as MMR now, Strava has more interesting comparisons and I have found 3-4 segments on my route where I can focus on a virtual competition. MMR has the voice in my ear giving me info every segment. If Strava had that I might just switch entirely. I quite like these little digital awards, they are nice feedback:-

And actually I have to say I am pretty pleased to be in a high position against about 100-110 other riders on the lists for those segments, esp, those young whippersnappers on racing bikes:-

For my age/weight (46/97kg) I am at the top of the chart on all segments. Meaningless in a broader sense but interesting motivation.

I seem able to hit some good speeds, sometimes well into 45+kph for shorter bursts like 1-2 km (absolutely knackering, but also motivating), but also typically around 30-35kph on a large part of my regular route (route is very flat). I curse traffic lights and crossings for reducing my averages, I imagine this is normal...

What else?

On the bike front I tested another expensive bike (Trek Domane) but for some reason I am hesitating to pull the trigger. Too many options maybe. Somebody showed me a Cyfac Absolu the other day, gorgeous.

Meanwhile I fitted small Continental Grand Prix 26x1.125 tires to the mountain bike 26 inch wheels, which seems to make me a) faster and b) select higher gears than with the old 26x2.1 tires - I am sure there is a mathematic linkage there between the smaller wheel circumference and the gearing.

I actually ran out of gears at one point - it was fairly easy to turn 42 x 11 on those skinny tires - so I have changed the front big chainring from 42->44, and I have a 46 waiting in the wings. Now I am on the limit with a front big crank of 44 and the small 11 gear on the rear cassette. I think another month or so and I will need a road bike's gearing for sure.

Also just today I have bought some proper MTB cycling shoes, with SPD cleats and pedals. Not sure this will have impact but it might.

Weight loss seems to be quite slow, I have dropped a couple more kilos but not as fast as I expected - it seems to be on a shallower ramp.

But my thighs are fizzing. Wow, have they hardened up. And I have arm tans that stop halfway down my bicep, very TdF.

So all good I guess. If anybody has any comment or tips, more than happy to receive your inputs, you guys have been very gracious with help so far.

A+

Chairvelo.

 

[CoachFergie]

Well done!!!

 

[Granville57]

The key item for weight loss is calorie reduction,

Yup.

And exercise has very little, if anything, to do with it.

Thousands upon thousands of gyms across the country are filled with countless people paying monthly fees and sweating themselves into a blissful state of ignorance...while not reducing their weight at all.

Eat less.

Eat smart.

Lose weight.

 

[Granville57]

Second most obvious point. exercise increases muscle mass

Really?

Define "exercise" and provide a timeline please.

 

[asanhaishanto]

Burn calories

You are losing calories its very good for losing weight. Keep it up what are you doing now. If you continue it you will surely lose weight.
But you have to do it regularly.
Best exercises for loss weight