File under "You have got to be &$(%ing kidding me?!

[red_flanders]

This sums up how I've always felt about Evans, top tier talent who couldn't take full advantage of doping. Not unlike JV, but even better.

What does it mean "couldn't"? Body didn't respond well, didn't have the logistics...?

 

[42x16ss]

What does it mean "couldn't"? Body didn't respond well, didn't have the logistics...?

Physiological parameters such as high haematocrit/poor response.

 

[Carstenbf]

Rest day BBs is not clean. Anything related with O2 vectors is a big no-no.

I'd say no to blood bags, maybe some epo when it was in vogue.

Hmm, ok. Talking GT winners here btw. It's just that every (not a lot tbh) GT winners blood profile I've come across, have seemed to show at best steady HC values. So I've always assumed that BB's were involved.

Somewhat off-topic btw, so guess no need to reply.

 

[red_flanders]

Physiological parameters such as high haematocrit/poor response.

OK, thanks. Do we know the former is true? The latter seems purely speculative, no?

 

[42x16ss]

Not for certain, just informed speculation.

 

[Netserk]

Informed how?

 

[Escarabajo]

Hmm, ok. Talking GT winners here btw. It's just that every (not a lot tbh) GT winners blood profile I've come across, have seemed to show at best steady HC values. So I've always assumed that BB's were involved.

Somewhat off-topic btw, so guess no need to reply.

Probably O2 vectors were involved. Sadly. That's not clean.

 

[movingtarget]

A stage 13 or stage 20 tt performance has far more to do with doping than with tt ability.

ys also telling that Evans never really was the king of single tts like worlds Olympicsz or even prologues, early tts. It was in the final week tts of the tour de france when recovery (aka how much epo have you taken) is what matters, that he excelled at.

Does not explain Evans so so final TT in the 2008 Tour. Evans said afterwards this his TT was not bad but Sastre's was unexpected or unusually good or words to that effect. But in 2008 all of the pressure was on Evans. Sastre attacked once on the Alpe and it was enough to win the overall. Most people seem to think the final TT is all about recovery and there is no doubt that Sastre had a much easier race than Evans and would have been fresher for the TT. In 2007 it was Leipheimer who did the final sensational TT and it was in 2008 that Sastre did an unusually good one for him so I don't see much evidence of Evans dominating TTs in grand tours except for the final one in 2011 when he had a great year and won the Tour, Contador had done the Giro and the Schlecks are mediocre TT riders. Even in the 2010 Vuelta and 2013 Giro where he podiumed his TTs were not sensational.

How many TTs has Evans actually won in grand tours ? Only one that I remember which was taken off Vino. Compared to Wiggins, Froome, Contador, Armstrong, Indurain and so on even Nibali, Evans TT results over his GT career were not dominant but they were top 10s most of the time. Consistency was Evans strength as a rider and you could never say he was the best at anything. You have to wonder how bad the Schlecks would be at the TT if they were not doping.

 

[roundabout]

Does not explain Evans so so final TT in the 2008 Tour. Evans said afterwards this his TT was not bad but Sastre's was unexpected or unusually good or words to that effect. But in 2008 all of the pressure was on Evans. Sastre attacked once on the Alpe and it was enough to win the overall. Most people seem to think the final TT is all about recovery and there is no doubt that Sastre had a much easier race than Evans and would have been fresher for the TT. In 2007 it was Leipheimer who did the final sensational TT and it was in 2008 that Sastre did an unusually good one for him so I don't see much evidence of Evans dominating TTs in grand tours except for the final one in 2011 when he had a great year and won the Tour, Contador had done the Giro and the Schlecks are mediocre TT riders. Even in the 2010 Vuelta and 2013 Giro where he podiumed his TTs were not sensational.

How many TTs has Evans actually won in grand tours ? Only one that I remember which was taken off Vino. Compared to Wiggins, Froome, Contador, Armstrong, Indurain and so on even Nibali, Evans TT results over his GT career were not dominant but they were top 10s most of the time. Consistency was Evans strength as a rider and you could never say he was the best at anything. You have to wonder how bad the Schlecks would be at the TT if they were not doping.

Which is why his 2007 TT performances do merit looking into as he never performed at that level before or since.

Historically it does seem that he does better in a later TT in GT than in an earlier one, but I am not going to speculate as to why.

Edit: now that I had a look, he only won 4 ITTs in his whole career and one of them was in the 2007 Tour

 

[42x16ss]

Informed how?

Guys who were around the AIS at the same time and raced against him before he went to Europe.

 

[Netserk]

Guys who were around the AIS at the same time and raced against him before he went to Europe.

Was that at the same time where he was a great MTBer? If so, I'd say there's a fairly good chance that he'd have been doping at that point, so not that much of a use to gauge natural haematocrit and other natural physiological parameters.

 

[blackcat]

Was that at the same time where he was a great MTBer? If so, I'd say there's a fairly good chance that he'd have been doping at that point, so not that much of a use to gauge natural haematocrit and other natural physiological parameters.

think his first tests at AIS would have been Canberra, not the Del Monte AIS, and he would have been testing for his mtb division. And he would have been ~17 in 1995, and you test higher in VO2max as a younger athlete. I thought he was measured at 93 or some Lemond type number.

Then the road cycling division had him do some races, and he did the Worlds with the junior team, and he rode the tt on Robbie Mcewen's timetrial bike. I think he came third in the worlds, with the smallest tt bike in the squad which was Robbie Mac's like i said.

Now, jnr worlds, and jnr worlds chrono, is a pretty small catchment for talent. Alot like jnr track worlds. It is not a major worldwide competition and catchment, it depends alot on resources and how much resources a national team will invest in this competition. Brailsford and UK Cycling have never put a shekel into jnrr track worlds. That tells you something.

But for the tt, Evans, coming from not road cycling, and never tt'ing, came third. So that kinda neutralises the fact that it was not a large catchment or potential pool of athletes. I think another Australian cyclist Josh Collingwood may have won that year, think he is a MD/GP now.

This would go someway to proving Evans WAS NOT the out and out fraud that he is alleged to be, on this thread. He came from a single mom in a small hippy town outside Melbourne, and then went on to dominate the sport, probably on an autistic spectrum, high functioning albiet (prolly asbergers).

Chances of them doping a 17/18yo athlete in the mtb program in Canberra in 1995? virtually nil. virtually nil. This is not Greg Strock, and Chris Carmichael and extract of cortisone and Crawford and blood spinning.

 

[Kretch]

Chances of them doping a 17/18yo athlete in the mtb program in Canberra in 1995? virtually nil. virtually nil.

Gotta agree with that.

 

[Archibald]

Chances of them doping a 17/18yo athlete in the mtb program in Canberra in 1995? virtually nil. virtually nil.

virtually, virutally... sounds like... 'mostly'...

 

[classic1]

think his first tests at AIS would have been Canberra, not the Del Monte AIS, and he would have been testing for his mtb division. And he would have been ~17 in 1995, and you test higher in VO2max as a younger athlete. I thought he was measured at 93 or some Lemond type number.

Then the road cycling division had him do some races, and he did the Worlds with the junior team, and he road the tt on Robbie Mcewen's timetrial bike. I think he came third in the worlds, with the smallest tt bike in the squad, which was Robbie Mac's.

Now, jnr worlds, and jnr worlds chrono, is a pretty small catchment for talent. Alot like jnr track worlds. It is not a major worldwide competition and catchment, it depends alot on resources and how much resources a national team will invest in this competition. Brailsford and UK Cycling have never put a shekel into jnr worlds. That tells you something.

But for the tt, Evans, coming from not road cycling, and never tt'ing, came third. So that kinda neutralises the fact that it was not a large catchment or potential pool of athletes. I think another Australian cyclist Josh Collingwood may have won that year, think it is a MD/GP now.

This would go someone to proving Evans WAS NOT the out and out fraud that he is alleged to be, on this thread. He came from a single mom in a small hippy town outside Melbourne, and then went on to dominate the sport, probably on an autistic spectrum, high functioning albiet (prolly asbergers).

Chances of them doping a 17/18yo athlete in the mtb program in Canberra in 1995? virtually nil. virtually nil. This is not Greg Strock, and Chris Carmichael and extract of cortisone and Crawford and blood spinning

Pretty much this. Anyone around the sport in Victoria the early 90s knew first hand or heard stories of this skinny MTB teenager ripping the legs off all the local heroes (inc state and national champs and Aust reps) out at VFL park week in week out. Evans is a gifted athlete.

 

[blackcat]

Pretty much this. Anyone around the sport in Victoria the early 90s knew first hand or heard stories of this skinny MTB teenager ripping the legs off all the local heroes (inc state and national champs and Aust reps) out at VFL park week in week out. Evans is a gifted athlete.

aka "the lung".

 

[Ethics|Gradient]

This would go someway to proving Evans WAS NOT the out and out fraud that he is alleged to be, on this thread. He came from a single mom in a small hippy town outside Melbourne, and then went on to dominate the sport, probably on an autistic spectrum, high functioning albiet (prolly asbergers).

Not a fraud, but a likely ****. Classy. Is there a condition that you can't diagnose from pixels alone?

 

[red_flanders]

Plus also there is Cancellara listed but he was only 26 in 2007 - still maturing. In 2007 Evans was 30 - probably at his peak physiology for a GC rider.

Before the EPO era started, GT riders were ending or winding down their careers at that age. Riders peaking at that age is just another indication of possible doping.

 

[Netserk]

Cancellara, the year after he won Roubaix and the WCITT, was still just maturing as a rider Did you see his first week in that Tour?

 

[blackcat]

Not a fraud, but a likely ****. Classy. Is there a condition that you can't diagnose from pixels alone?

i meant to leave an *


associating, layperson. not qualified. not a medico. there are worse things said about the person in question in this thread.

step on my dog and i will cut your head off? that was literal. as I said, i forgot the asterisk, as I knew i should atleast offer a qualifier, even if I was not called on it.

i) you dont speak to a reporter doing his job like that, even if you are under stress, tho that explains it
ii) you dont switch around the rest day ride times, unilaterally, without their being consequences. see: Mcewen's anecdote.

for both i) and ii), not the wisest move when you need people to like you, especially, ii) because he needed the teammates to go into the red for him. Who has willingly rode for Evans before BMC? Horner, Clark. And he needed riders to be in his equipe, and they werent. Popo on big money never rode for him. When I mean ride for him, i mean ride ride, go into the red, sacrifice all nature of things for him, your leader.

So, Evans could have a tin ear for team and personal politics. He could. He might also know politics, but have an actionable tin ear because he cannot do "politics", or he does not understand the social equation. I shall ask esteemed polymath D-Q for his opinion.

But feel free to chew me out Ethics/Gradient

 

[The Hitch]

Does not explain Evans so so final TT in the 2008 Tour.

I don't understand why people continue to believe that anyone who is doping must be superhuman every single day of every single year. Doping makes you way better, it doesn't make you immune from bad days, or in this case slightly worse days.

This seems to be a particular habbit of Evans fans. Oh look Evans had a bad day here and one here, as if that somehow ruled out him doping (even though on these bad days he was still 1000x better than all the other guys who got caught on EPO)

Look at Landis for christ sakes. Or Armstrong in 2003. Or Contador in Paris Nice. Or Ullrich LDA back in 98 when everyone was on 60% and he still lost more time on 1 stage than Evans did in 3 consecutive tours put together.

The idea that riders who dope must automatically win every stage and Evans failure to win stages while still beating all the other dopers somehow, is suggestive of being clean, is ridiculous.

 

[movingtarget]

i meant to leave an *


associating, layperson. not qualified. not a medico. there are worse things said about the person in question in this thread.

step on my dog and i will cut your head off? that was literal. as I said, i forgot the asterisk, as I knew i should atleast offer a qualifier, even if I was not called on it.

i) you dont speak to a reporter doing his job like that, even if you are under stress, tho that explains it
ii) you dont switch around the rest day ride times, unilaterally, without their being consequences. see: Mcewen's anecdote.

for both i) and ii), not the wisest move when you need people to like you, especially, ii) because he needed the teammates to go into the red for him. Who has willingly rode for Evans before BMC? Horner, Clark. And he needed riders to be in his equipe, and they werent. Popo on big money never rode for him. When I mean ride for him, i mean ride ride, go into the red, sacrifice all nature of things for him, your leader.

So, Evans could have a tin ear for team and personal politics. He could. He might also know politics, but have an actionable tin ear because he cannot do "politics", or he does not understand the social equation. I shall ask esteemed polymath D-Q for his opinion.

But feel free to chew me out Ethics/Gradient

Popo probably did not ride because Evans did not threaten him like Lance might have done. Popo was on big money at Discovery no doubt and maybe with Armstong retiring it was time to move on. Everyone was disappointed in Popo's his performance at Lotto. Evans seemed to have a devoted team at BMC and Hincapie would have stabilized things as well. But there is no doubt Evans is eccentric and he admits himself that he is different and does not bother to hide it. I think Evans just got worse behaviour wise after his near misses in 2007 and 2008 Tours. 2009 was a disaster and 2010 he rode well until the elbow injury but after doing the Giro he would have weakened probably.

The surprise for many after two bad years was that could he could comeback in 2011 more settled and relaxed and much happier with his team. Evans went in to bat for Horner and was very disappointed when Lotto did not re-sign him that was probably one of the things that convinced Evans to move to another team. I think the 2008 Tour loss was a bitter pill for both the team and Evans and their relations seemed to go downhill from then on.

 

[blackcat]

Popo probably did not ride because Evans did not threaten him like Lance might have done. Popo was on big money at Discovery no doubt and maybe with Armstong retiring it was time to move on. Everyone was disappointed in Popo's his performance at Lotto. Evans seemed to have a devoted team at BMC and Hincapie would have stabilized things as well. But there is no doubt Evans is eccentric and he admits himself that he is different and does not bother to hide it. I think Evans just got worse behaviour wise after his near misses in 2007 and 2008 Tours. 2009 was a disaster and 2010 he rode well until the elbow injury but after doing the Giro he would have weakened probably.

The surprise for many after two bad years was that could he could comeback in 2011 more settled and relaxed and much happier with his team. Evans went in to bat for Horner and was very disappointed when Lotto did not re-sign him that was probably one of the things that convinced Evans to move to another team. I think the 2008 Tour loss was a bitter pill for both the team and Evans and their relations seemed to go downhill from then on.

Popo was pis$ed cos his best mate another ukraine rider got popped puntended and he decided not to ride but to ride out his contract for the mucho roubels

horner replied to an email i sent him and Lotto were trying to lowball him on his contract. he was not belgian (my surmising) and he was leaving

 

[movingtarget]

I don't understand why people continue to believe that anyone who is doping must be superhuman every single day of every single year. Doping makes you way better, it doesn't make you immune from bad days, or in this case slightly worse days.

This seems to be a particular habbit of Evans fans. Oh look Evans had a bad day here and one here, as if that somehow ruled out him doping (even though on these bad days he was still 1000x better than all the other guys who got caught on EPO)

Look at Landis for christ sakes. Or Armstrong in 2003. Or Contador in Paris Nice. Or Ullrich LDA back in 98 when everyone was on 60% and he still lost more time on 1 stage than Evans did in 3 consecutive tours put together.

The idea that riders who dope must automatically win every stage and Evans failure to win stages while still beating all the other dopers somehow, is suggestive of being clean, is ridiculous.

What I was saying was that I don't think Evans TT results in GTs from 2005 to 2014 were that great. He never won a GT TT on the road and often he did one good TT and one weaker one. He wasn't even close to being superhuman but of course that does not mean he did not dope. But you also could argue that Cancellara and Martin were dominating TTs in Evans best years and previous years when GC riders were winning TTs were no longer happening.

 

[movingtarget]

Popo was pis$ed cos his best mate another ukraine rider got popped puntended and he decided not to ride but to ride out his contract for the mucho roubels

horner replied to an email i sent him and Lotto were trying to lowball him on his contract. he was not belgian (my surmising) and he was leaving

Quite funny that Evans blindsided Lotto after winning the Worlds and had been negotiating with BMC when Lotto expected him to re-sign. Marc Sergeant sounded shocked when Evans told them he was leaving as the current World Champion.