Financial Fair Play

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The other side to the salary cap argument is that perhaps other teams should invest in their commercial teams. Rather than cap one team, develop all teams, so a wider universe and fans is reached?
I think that, as with sponsorship itself, Bob Stapleton and the UCI's current inerest in the cap (as shown by the loaded questions in their recent survey), is just one strand of a larger project to professionalise the management of the sport. While I largely see a cap as window dressing it does have the potential, as in the Premier League's experience of a cap, to be used as a tool to encourage teams to be more commercially minded and diversify their income sources. But that potential is dependent upon the other measures that will come with it.
 
If sponsorship return is tied to success I would think that, in a sport that struggles to draw sponsors, you run the risk of chasing them away rather than pulling them in.
Cycling's economic model draws on a number of motivating factors driving sponsorship few of which have a traditionally sound economic basis measurable by KPIs and ROI (sugar daddies etc). Even those with a sound economic rationale don't need victory if they choose to market their involvement using a different narrative (Rapha).
The sports I've seen them used in (and the variety of cap types used can muddy the waters) don't seem any more stable than comparable sports that don't use them. Stability seems to be more down to other factors, such as size of fan base and number of teams supported by it.
Your original point was cycling lacked stability and so was not suited to a cap. I disagree with that. On the wider point of whether caps work in practice I'm largely in the same camp as you. They can have an impact (English rugby, in the short term) but only if everyone agrees on the problem and so pulls together for the solution (in cycling we can't even agree if we really have a problem let alone what that problem might be - mostly we just have JV demanding money and a seat at the table in perpetuity).
 
It’s not correct the team are despised and hated by the vast majority of people. We measure areas such as awareness, trust, like, inspire, etc every six months for the team and some of the riders. The numbers of people who support Team Ineos and their riders are extremely strong across a number of global markets.

The other side to the salary cap argument is that perhaps other teams should invest in their commercial teams. Rather than cap one team, develop all teams, so a wider universe of sponsors and fans is reached?


US based sports have PROVEN that caps do make the playing field LEVEL and more competitive as long as you have good management. Thanks for proving you do NOT want a level playing field.

I'd actually vunture to guess most people have no clue what your company is to start with and Sky/Ineos is NOT a well liked team in most places and it also by far one of the LEAST trusted teams. But please keep believing the BS your spewing here.
 
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I think if you judge Ineos from the discussion on this forum, then you probably get a very skewed view. As "the good cyclist" in a lot of the circles I move in I get a lot of people wanting to discuss pro cycling and racing with me. The few who wish to discuss doping rarely talk about Ineos/Sky specifically unless they happen to be in the news for this reason. Most will just discuss that cycling is a "dirty" sport. Most of the people I talk to are either fans of or at worst indifferent to Ineos, with the bias leaning heavily towards the fans. This is mainly UK-based people (although not all British nationals) so I can't comment about anywhere else and it's a small sample size. But I'd be surprised if it wasn't pretty representative.



Pretty sure salary caps have been discussed before, either here or elsewhere. They seem to rely on the premise that you have a stable team structure with an abundance of potential sponsors. This isn't the case in cycling. I think salary caps will likely just drive out larger potential sponsors.




Is it possible for you to tell if income is related to success? This is always presumed in these discussions, but I sometimes wonder if it's true.


Budget caps, not salary caps. As it is a team like Sky/Ineos with a budget of 2 to 4 times what any other team can do will drive away sponsors at a much faster rate.

As for people liking Ineos/Sky it's not just the forums here, but also people I know in the US which is only a handful of cycling fans and all but 1 despise Sky/Ineos. I have a lot of Spanish (Spaniards) friends who are cycling fans and they have no use for Sky/Ineos either and were very happy when Landa left so they could cheer for him again.
 
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It's been discussed extensively here in the last couple of pages.

I don't really think that's a fair summation of the general experience across multiple sports. Salary/spending caps are used to promote stability (usually in sports susceptible to debt-driven expansion).

I don't really believe this. One of the purposes of spending/salary caps is to slow down inflation at the high end of a league while allowing the middle/bottom to catch up. So a potential sponsor replacing, say, AG2R who currently spend circa €17m, is hardly likely to be stymied by a cap that has to be set in the current range of Skineos's budget (€43m).

For the record, my opposition to the cap is based on the following:
  • few who advocate it understand it, they're just repeating something they heard/read somewhere else;
  • none who advocate it can explain how a sport ill-equiped to police pay-to-play breaches of minimum salary rules can be expected to cope with the creative accounting techniques used to circumvent spending rules in other sports;
  • I doubt if any who advocate a cap have even considered the CPA's response.
It would be so easy to get around the salary cap.
US based sports have PROVEN that caps do make the playing field LEVEL and more competitive as long as you have good management. Thanks for proving you do NOT want a level playing field.

I'd actually vunture to guess most people have no clue what your company is to start with and Sky/Ineos is NOT a well liked team in most places and it also by far one of the LEAST trusted teams. But please keep believing the BS your spewing here.

It's not BS, it's the opinion of thousands of fans across the USA, Europe and Australia. Just because you don't agree doesn't render it BS.
 
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It's been discussed extensively here in the last couple of pages.

I don't really think that's a fair summation of the general experience across multiple sports. Salary/spending caps are used to promote stability (usually in sports susceptible to debt-driven expansion).

I don't really believe this. One of the purposes of spending/salary caps is to slow down inflation at the high end of a league while allowing the middle/bottom to catch up. So a potential sponsor replacing, say, AG2R who currently spend circa €17m, is hardly likely to be stymied by a cap that has to be set in the current range of Skineos's budget (€43m).

For the record, my opposition to the cap is based on the following:
  • few who advocate it understand it, they're just repeating something they heard/read somewhere else;
  • none who advocate it can explain how a sport ill-equiped to police pay-to-play breaches of minimum salary rules can be expected to cope with the creative accounting techniques used to circumvent spending rules in other sports;
  • I doubt if any who advocate a cap have even considered the CPA's response.

Don't know what they think of it. However, when the NHL finally got around to implimenting a salary cap (which at first was virtually impossible for anyone to understand and has been streamlined to make it make a lot more sense over the years) their players association is who was actually pushing for a the cap. There were 2 main reasons for it. (1) The sport does not have the revenue the NBA, NFL, and MLB have so in part it was for financial stability of the sport. They have had teams struggle to survive. (2) Veteran players were tired of seeing rookies come in and get huge contracts without proving they could even play at that level while top veterans weren't getting offers close to that even though they were top players for years, so they actually pushed even harder for a separate rookie salary cap. There is a rookie salary cap as well as the overall salary cap.
 
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Budget caps, not salary caps. As it is a team like Sky/Ineos with a budget of 2 to 4 times what any other team can do will drive away sponsors at a much faster rate.

As for people liking Ineos/Sky it's not just the forums here, but also people I know in the US which is only a handful of cycling fans and all but 1 despise Sky/Ineos. I have a lot of Spanish (Spaniards) friends who are cycling fans and they have no use for Sky/Ineos either and were very happy when Landa left so they could cheer for him again.

I would disagree. Sky now Ineos had more than one interested party, that's a fact. A number of people were minded to pay the sticker price. But only for this team. Which tells you that if other teams can up their game, more big name sponsors may show up.
 
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I would disagree. Sky now Ineos had more than one interested party, that's a fact. A number of people were minded to pay the sticker price. But only for this team. Which tells you that if other teams can up their game, more big name sponsors may show up.

That proves that only that team can get the outrageous money and care NOTHING about the sport except to destroy it. That is what 1 team with huge money does. Unless you or others are willing to LIST all those so called possible sponsors there is exactly ZERO reason to believe there were any other sponsors out there.

Your own comment that ONLY this team can get that kind of money leads to major questions about ethics with this team.
 
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That proves that only that team can get the outrageous money and care NOTHING about the sport except to destroy it. That is what 1 team with huge money does. Unless you or others are willing to LIST all those so called possible sponsors there is exactly ZERO reason to believe there were any other sponsors out there.

Your own comment that ONLY this team can get that kind of money leads to major questions about ethics with this team.

My comment is based on the relative management skills of the team, it doesn't lead to questions about ethics.

It's not my place to list the other companies who were interested, but they were big names. So the question might be can other teams up their game to make their offering attractive to these big names?

On the bright side, McLaren are coming to the table too, so there is potential.
 
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My comment is based on the relative management skills of the team, it doesn't lead to questions about ethics.

It's not my place to list the other companies who were interested, but they were big names. So the question might be can other teams up their game to make their offering attractive to these big names?

On the bright side, McLaren are coming to the table too, so there is potential.


Thus continuing the belief that there were actually not any other potential sponsors for this team. Without an actual list that can be verified there is no reason to even believe there were other potential sponsors. Sorry, but there is still exactly zero reason to believe there were any other potential sponsors out there.
It has nothing to do with how other teams are managed it has to do specifically with 1 team dominating one specific race and no one else willing to pay ALL the other teams an equal amount. As more teams fold every year because of LACK of sponsorships, there is still exactly zero reason to believe your claim. Which is all it is, a claim as there is no evidence or proof of what you are claiming.
 
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Thus continuing the belief that there were actually not any other potential sponsors for this team. Without an actual list that can be verified there is no reason to even believe there were other potential sponsors. Sorry, but there is still exactly zero reason to believe there were any other potential sponsors out there.
It has nothing to do with how other teams are managed it has to do specifically with 1 team dominating one specific race and no one else willing to pay ALL the other teams an equal amount. As more teams fold every year because of LACK of sponsorships, there is still exactly zero reason to believe your claim. Which is all it is, a claim as there is no evidence or proof of what you are claiming.
OK.
I understand your view is fixed and you won’t change your mind.
I have no motive to lie.
But I’ll leave the matter alone now.
 
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I struggle to think of a time when the top tier of the sport was more stable. So ... pony up the evidence, the names of these teams folding for a lack of sponsorship.

BMC basically folded and gave their WT license to CCC. EF almost folded two years ago. Quickstep was on the verge of folding. If that is stable, you have an interesting view of stable.
Then there were a bunch of Pro Conti teams than either folded or dropped back to the Conti level.
EF had to go to crowdsourcing before finding EF to step in last minute to save the team.
Thanks for playing.
 
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I struggle to think of a time when the top tier of the sport was more stable. So ... pony up the evidence, the names of these teams folding for a lack of sponsorship.
How much of this is to do with sponsorship at the top level, though, and how much of it is the lack of too much by way of viable alternative to the World Tour since the UCI made it harder to build from ProContinental to prevent teams from basically overriding the intention of the ProTour like Cervélo and BMC did? It's a two-sided coin.

How many World Tour teams have grown organically from the lower ranks in recent years? We've seen a few vanity projects that went straight in at the top thanks to big money, such as Leopard and Radioshack, but we've also lost some very traditional teams via mergers and acquisitions - and of course those two teams only survived through merger themselves. Elsewhere, Vaughters must be a demon negotiator, because he's managed to survive two mergers (and took on a sponsor of a ProConti team that was killed by that sponsor jumping across to Slipstream) whilst simultaneously twice making teams that resulted in less than the sum of their parts and nearly going to the wall a third time - yet he still manages to keep the overall control! How he's been able to do it is, no joke, really impressive, like one of those tenacious football managers that keeps getting hired by team after team to avoid relegation.

For the most part though, a lot of the teams at the very top are stable because they are mostly split between two categories: springing out from national projects or nationally-funded projects (Sky/Ineos, Katyusha, Astana, Mitchelton-Scott for national projects, Bahrain and UAE for nationally-funded projects), or long-term traditional teams who have been there since before the ProTour began, often with sponsors who also predate that (Movistar, Lotto, Quick Step, Groupama-FDJ, Ag2r, Jumbo-Visma). Some of which (Movistar and Jumbo most notably) have become sort of national projects by default, with the loss of or moving out of their main top level rivals, or their being swept aside to make room for the newer projects.

There are a few teams which have grown organically, but this has slowed to a trickle. Sunweb are the former Skil-Shimano team; Dimension Data grew from a Continental team; Bora-Hansgrohe likewise (although they needed a big, big injection of cash to get across the line). Meanwhile, other teams that have grown organically have either had to merge to survive (like Slipstream) or have died (Vacansoleil). But that's three teams in ten years that have grown from ProContinental and survived. Even BMC have now had to survive a merger. The problem is that now the number of spots available for them is limited, there's little incentive to start a big, ambitious project at the ProContinental level, as used to happen not infrequently, while the global financial crisis and its impact on domestic cycling (especially in Italy and Spain) has strangled some of the benefit of riding at this level as the domestic calendars are not as strong, meaning you need a sponsor willing to drop the cash to afford a World Tour calendar to get any kind of exposure beyond breakaway status unless you can guarantee a major invite like, say, Cofidis; smaller, regional hobby sponsors cannot sustain a calendar that is more international, and that is now absolutely required because many national calendars have suffered so that any ambitious riders will quickly outgrow the level, unlike a decade ago when wildcard teams - even discounting Cervélo and BMC - provided genuine threats to win major races with the likes of di Luca, Petacchi, Mosquera, Garzelli, Rujano, Pozzato, Visconti, Voeckler, Carrara, Hoogerland, Pozzovivo, Guardini, de Waele, Tondó, Scarponi and Simoni.

I see very few ProContinental teams with big ambition to develop to World Tour level at present, of the kind that used to put pressure on the lower ProTour/WorldTour spots and threatened some of the smaller World Tour teams; mostly they are teams who have settled in their niche or are well established teams who have been around the lower World Tour/higher ProConti level for years (Cofidis, Direct Energie), and only perhaps Israel Cycling Academy could be considered a candidate for organic growth to World Tour level - in which case is the stability of the top level the product of strong financial security of the top level? Or just the product of the changes to the calendar, and UCI's attempt to prevent teams like Cervélo and BMC from exploiting the ProConti level meaning that the disparity in income between the top levels mean that up-and-coming riders would rather be a middling domestique in a World Tour team than a leader in a ProConti team, meaning that there simply isn't any impetus for churn at the top level?

I know I've talked about this at length a few times recently, but I think that while it made sense in the short term - the success of Cervélo especially in bogarting wildcard invites from ProConti due to their rider strength while simultaneously retaining the 'opt out' of any flyaway race they didn't want to do - such as McQuaid's beloved 'globalisation' races like Beijing - threatened the very raison d'être of the Pro Tour and ran the risk to the UCI of killing the concept entirely - the long term impact of the restricting of the ProConti level has been as negative as anything in promoting the now extreme disparity between the haves and have nots.

Not for nothing did I make my French football analogy earlier. Because from an audience perspective, entertainment is king and a close race that creates tension provides that. It's why this year's Tour saw audience figures rise across Europe, and last year's saw them go down. It's one of the main reasons why F1 viewing figures are in the toilet. Sky/Ineos have a big budgetary advantage, sure, but it's not THAT much more than BMC used to be, or Katyusha. But Sky/Ineos invested their money far more wisely, and shouldn't be punished for that. However, bogarting all the top talents and generating a one-sided, predictable spectacle is good for business - up until the point where it isn't. Paris Saint Germain can indeed count on more sponsorship money coming in than Nîmes Olympique. But if Ligue 1 remains such a one-sided and predictable spectacle, then Ligue 1 will never be able to draw the viewing figures outside of France that the EPL, or La Liga, where there is also a huge budget disparity but a greater level of close competition, or at least more teams who are able to operate at something approaching parity with the biggest budget team. Sky/Ineos may not create the level of antipathy that an internet forum may suggest (after all, contributors to an internet forum on the topic will always tend toward the more hardcore fans) but a predictable spectacle also serves as a limiter on the number of new fans drawn in, or drive some fans no longer attracted to the spectacle away. I was one of the people who walked away from Formula 1 during Schumacher's reign of terror, and there have been several years recently where I simply haven't bothered watching the Tour de France - any of it - because I'm simply not interested in watching it. With 20.000 posts on a cycling forum, I'm not a typical case, and I'm aware of that. But at the same time, the casual fan is, by definition, casual, and their support is often evanescent. The stats that did the rounds last year showing that the Tour's viewing figures were down across Europe - including the UK, by the way - point to a perception problem. It may be that for some the perception is not against Sky/Ineos per se, but simply against the sport for the spectacle lacking, and there are certainly lots of trends that contribute to that beyond the concentration of more money in the hands of a few - parcours trends, broadcasting flat stages start to finish, employment trends meaning less free time to watch the race, broadcast deals and available channels - but it seems like there is still some dissonance between growing the sport's audience and growing your position within the sport's existing audience in terms of ways to benefit, both from a business-as-a-team and a business-as-a-sponsor perspective.
 
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Well, this went downhill quickly didn't it?


Budget caps, not salary caps. ...

I don't really see the distinction if I'm honest. Sky spend roughly 80% of their budget on wages, or at least they did, so it's still their largest expense without any kind of cap. I can't see this changing much, irrelevant of whether a cap were on budget or salary.

US based sports have PROVEN that caps do make the playing field LEVEL and more competitive as long as you have good management. Thanks for proving you do NOT want a level playing field.
Have they? The cap came back in the NBA in 1984. The following 20 years was almost completely dominated by 2 teams. It doesn't get much better afterwards and I'm pretty sure that teams like Miami Heat only started to win after spending huge amounts on players? It certainly doesn't look like the cap did anything to create a more level playing field.

The current cap in the NFL was implemented in 2011, I think. Since them the Patriots have won 3 Superbowls, the AFC 5 times and the AFC East every single year. Looking elsewhere I don't see any indication that the playing field is any more level than it was beforehand.

The NHL cap came in after the 04-05 lock-out? Looking at Stanley Cup champions I don't see any greater variation in winners since the implementation. Blackhawks with 3 wins, Penguins with 3 wins, familiar names like the Red Wings and Bruins cropping up. I think all of the teams who won in this era had already appeared in at least 1 Stanley Cup series prior to the cap being implemented.

Funnily enough, the sport which does not operate a cap but rather relies on a luxury tax seems to have the most varied list of winners. 23 teams have won the World Series, 20 have won the Stanley Cup and 20 have won the NFL. Comparing this with the number of teams that currently compete in each sport, I'm aware this has changed over the years, the MLB has 30 teams, the NHL has 31 teams and the NFL has 32 teams. So, over the course of the sports histories, the one without the cap appears to have been the most competitive.

Of course, the different league championships haven't been played as many times, the Superbowl has been played about half as many times as the World Series. But even is we cut the World Series list to 1967, we only lose different winner, the Indians.

Caps may have helped the stability of certain teams or sports, although I'd need to see evidence of this, but from what I can see it's done nothing to level the playing field.

This is a pretty simplistic analysis because of the nature of franchise sports, so if you could provide proof that caps do actually make things more competitive that'd be appreciated.
 
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Here, I think, we have a key problem with many contributors to this forum, encapsulated.

@Koronin stated that "As more teams fold every year because of LACK of sponsorships, there is still exactly zero reason to believe your claim. "

Asked for evidence to support the claim that "more teams fold every year because of a LACK of sponsorships", here's what we get back:
BMC basically folded and gave their WT license to CCC. EF almost folded two years ago. Quickstep was on the verge of folding. If that is stable, you have an interesting view of stable.
Then there were a bunch of Pro Conti teams than either folded or dropped back to the Conti level.
EF had to go to crowdsourcing before finding EF to step in last minute to save the team.
In short, zero evidence. Three teams that (allegedly*) teetered on the edge of failure but all of whom survived.

(*Allegedly, as Lefevere has become a bit of the Boy Who Cried Wolf when it comes to the end of his team, every other year treating us to the same pantomime. Also, DQS could have continued without a new sponsor, partly through the owner Zdeněk Bakala (one of the over-looked sugar daddies propping teams up) and partly through existing arrangements. Lefevere himself said as much.)

An important point to take in here is that time and again this claim of teams collapsing every year through lack of sponsorship gets trotted out, but where's the evidence? Is it it be found in the loss of IAM, a sugar-daddy team where daddy got bored? No it is not. Is it to be found in the loss of Tinkov, a sugar-daddy team where daddy got bored? No it is not.

Even when we come to JV and his Lost Boys, is it fair to say that the team tottered on the edge in consequence of a lack of sponsorship or at some stage do we ask ourselves just what the hell sort of management is in place there that they can burn through so many name-sponsors in such a short space of time (Chipotle, H30, Garmin, Transitions, Cervélo, Barracuda, Sharp, Cannondale, Drapac, EF Education First) and piss-off so many would be sponsors in even less? The simple fact is that there are many, many cycling teams not being run as professional businesses, and yet this whole debate is predicated on the sport itself behaving like a professional business.

WRT @Koronin's argument that these three teams teetering on the edge not just invalidates the claim that, at the top tier of the sport, we're in a period of relative stability, but means that "you have an interesting view of stable." Well, a ctually, people who believe that have an interesting view of what stability looks like. Running a business is not easy. Businesses fail, every day. Big businesses, small businesses, they fail. Some are badly run, some hit some bad luck, some get screwed, driven out of business by competition. People like JV want all the jeopardy of running a business removed from team management. People like JV want to have their cake and eat it, they want to be a capitalist business underpinned by a socialist support structure.
 
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Sky spend roughly 80% of their budget on wages, or at least they did, so it's still their largest expense without any kind of cap.
Just to butt in with some data, across the sport, the average is 70-80% of budget goes on salaries, for riders and staff. The last year for which we have Sky's wage bill, 2016, the figure was 78%.

Thanks for offering some explanation of the American experience of caps: it is far from as simple as some claim.
 
Thanks for offering some explanation of the American experience of caps: it is far from as simple as some claim.

No worries. It is obviously much more complicated. Many people bring up the Yankees (#Yankeessuck) and their 27 world series wins as an example of a team which dominates a sport, but if you want to compare them with, say, the NFL, you need to discount all their Series wins pre-1967. This reduces their win count to 7, only one more than the Steelers and Patriots Superbowl wins and they haven't won it for 10 years. Including data from different time periods also skews things even more.


There's also a discussion to be had about whether these sports are even comparable to cycling, I feel like it's been had before as well? All of these sports have captive markets and guaranteed revenue streams due to gate receipts. They receive massive tax breaks, free infrastructure and are operated as multi-million (maybe in some cases billion?) dollar businesses. The WorldTour system might seem similar to the franchise system used in US sports, but that's where the similarity ends, they are vastly different.
 
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No worries. It is obviously much more complicated. Many people bring up the Yankees (#Yankeessuck) and their 27 world series wins as an example of a team which dominates a sport, but if you want to compare them with, say, the NFL, you need to discount all their Series wins pre-1967. This reduces their win count to 7, only one more than the Steelers and Patriots Superbowl wins and they haven't won it for 10 years. Including data from different time periods also skews things even more.
I don't know if I'm crossing my sports here, but were the Yaankees the ones who ignored their salary cap for 14 years on the trot (and so payed a tax penalty)?
 
I don't know if I'm crossing my sports here, but were the Yankees the ones who ignored their salary cap for 14 years on the trot (and so payed a tax penalty)?
Baseball operates on a "luxury tax" system which was implemented in 1996, eliminated around 200 then brought back a couple of years later. Currently teams who outspend a certain threshold have to pay a percentage of the overspend as a tax. This percentage increases every time they overspend. The previous system based it on the salaries of other teams, 5th and 6th place, which the richer teams didn't like.

So, technically they didn't ignore it, they just chose to spend more and pay the tax. The Red Sox did the same last year to win the World Series and this year it stopped them bringing players in during the most recent window as they didn't think it would improve their chances.

Its efficacy is definitely not clear cut, with lots of people arguing that it either does or doesn't work. The strongest argument is that, because of the increasing tax, teams are more willing to underspend after a few years to reset it, although this obviously depends on the teams finances, which will stop long periods of domination. However, as you note, rich teams just pay it. I'm pretty sure that the Red Sox have the highest wage bill this year and they've been average at best and unable to consistently pull wins together. The Yankees have surpassed the threshold every year since 2003, they've won 1 world series in that time.
 
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