fine tuning yor engine

[beroepsrenner]

Give me some thoughts on this concept.
If you are into car racing you continually modify and fine tune your engine to get the most out of it. A cyclist's engine is his own body. When you are in peak physical condition and still not winning why not look for something that will give you a few more seconds or watts or however you choose to measure it. As long as your health is not put at risk, what is the problem? As a professional you are paid to put on a spectacle to capture the attention of the public in order for your sponsors to get exposure for their money. You all criticise what goes on but you all still watch the races. Seems a bit hypocritical to me. Maybe the reality is that you are all envious of the stars of our sport and are trying to justify your own mediocrity by attempting to discredit those that excel.

 

[blackcat]

Give me some thoughts on this concept.
If you are into car racing you continually modify and fine tune your engine to get the most out of it. A cyclist's engine is his own body. When you are in peak physical condition and still not winning why not look for something that will give you a few more seconds or watts or however you choose to measure it. As long as your health is not put at risk, what is the problem? As a professional you are paid to put on a spectacle to capture the attention of the public in order for your sponsors to get exposure for their money. You all criticise what goes on but you all still watch the races. Seems a bit hypocritical to me. Maybe the reality is that you are all envious of the stars of our sport and are trying to justify your own mediocrity by attempting to discredit those that excel.

strawman, we are all monday morning quarterbacks.

how about this, there is the same amount of wins to go around the peloton, just adding dope does not add value. The racing was more exciting when there were not 20 riders at the bottom of the final ascent on the queen stage.

Racing is boring when there are 5 teammates there at the final ascent, and there are no jour sans.

Doping is an externality and a diseconomy, there is no financial value add. It is only deleterious, sponsors are lost.

 

[elapid]

One thing I have to say is that the main protagonists in the Clinical Forum very rarely visit the other sections of this forum. May be they're just very clever trolls or really do have an insight into doping in the professional peloton, but they rarely back up their posts with sources.

I know I have off days and great days when cycling, so I think too much is read into the "great days" when someone does something fantastic. But that is the reality of the situation now where any great performance is viewed with skepticism.

As for enjoying cycling and racing, I think the vast majority of us are not hypocritical. We know what is going on, but enjoy the racing regardless. But ... I hope the next week improves in the TdF, because there have been precious few moments of enjoyment in the last two weeks!

 

[subzro]

The racing was more exciting when there were not 20 riders at the bottom of the final ascent on the queen stage

That's not a result of riders doping now and not back then, that's a result of there better dope available. People like to romanticise about the good old days, the good old days were full of drug cheats just as today is.

 

[davidg]

That's not a result of riders doping now and not back then, that's a result of there better dope available. People like to romanticise about the good old days, the good old days were full of drug cheats just as today is.

On that basis, better doping is a great leveller - something may people think is quite the opposite.

The reason so many went over the top together is more to do with tactics, and the fact that Astana have such a control at the top of the GC, they can dictate the race. It needs the other contenders to put their noses into the wind and put Astana under pressure.

Going back to OP, using your analogy, you are suggesting that whilst people will tinker with the engine and bodywork within the rules, it is actually ok to tinker a bit more and put NOX in.

Sorry, but I dont subscribe to your theory. The rules for motor sport and cycling are there for the same reason, to maintain some kind of level playing field or uniformity in the competition, and to protect the competitors from themselves.

 

[subzro]

I didn't say it was ok, in fact I called them cheats. I was just pointing out the flaw in the second persons post.

 

[beroepsrenner]

Elapid, you made a good point when you said you had good days and bad days. So do protour riders! ...and it is very difficult to maintain peak form for more than a few weeks at a time. I see no point contributing to other sections of the forum as people will enterpret what they see the way they will. However the moral dilema of doping has haunted me for 20 years. While I dont condone it, at the same time I dont entirely condemn it either. I am just trying to stimulate a balanced discussion. I was aware of doping in pro cycling when I was 12 years old and I am now 49. Everyone in Europe has always known about it. It seems to me that only since the english speaking countries have discovered cycling on a broader scale that it has come under intense scrutiny. IMO the scarcity of sponsors at the moment is more to do with the global economy than drug scandals. If it was handled more discreetly as in other sports then the sponsors wouldnt be so afraid of being tarnished by association. God bless all the Paul Kimmages out there.

 

[Bronstein]

Give me some thoughts on this concept.
If you are into car racing you continually modify and fine tune your engine to get the most out of it. A cyclist's engine is his own body. When you are in peak physical condition and still not winning why not look for something that will give you a few more seconds or watts or however you choose to measure it. As long as your health is not put at risk, what is the problem? As a professional you are paid to put on a spectacle to capture the attention of the public in order for your sponsors to get exposure for their money. You all criticise what goes on but you all still watch the races. Seems a bit hypocritical to me. Maybe the reality is that you are all envious of the stars of our sport and are trying to justify your own mediocrity by attempting to discredit those that excel.

Perhaps the problem is that doping violates the rules of the sport and is also arguably unethical. I didn't know that fine tuning a car engine violated the rules of car racing. Maybe your analogy is a little inaccurate.

 

[beroepsrenner]

On that basis, better doping is a great leveller - something may people think is quite the opposite.

The reason so many went over the top together is more to do with tactics, and the fact that Astana have such a control at the top of the GC, they can dictate the race. It needs the other contenders to put their noses into the wind and put Astana under pressure.

Going back to OP, using your analogy, you are suggesting that whilst people will tinker with the engine and bodywork within the rules, it is actually ok to tinker a bit more and put NOX in.

Sorry, but I dont subscribe to your theory. The rules for motor sport and cycling are there for the same reason, to maintain some kind of level playing field or uniformity in the competition, and to protect the competitors from themselves.

Perhaps the problem is that doping violates the rules of the sport and is also arguably unethical. I didn't know that fine tuning a car engine violated the rules of car racing. Maybe your analogy is a little inaccurate.

I am a fan of many forms of motor sport. Every type or formula has its rules for the mechanical configuration of car. All cars are subject to scrutineering a bit like cyclists being subjected to dope tests. If they didnt bend the rules there would be no need for the mechanical scrutineering. We're all human

 

[mephisto]

There is no level playing feild

So an F1 team with $500 mil in the bank v's an F1 team with $50 mil is fair?

USA and Australia have pools worth over $20 mil with motion capture and bio-mechanical analysis software to fine tune their athletes, legal, but fair to poor African nations?

A cycling team like Saxo or Astana v's Skill or AG2R fair?

Nope, non of it fair and where there is more money there is better research and more advanced ways to hide things, kinda like the global financial crisis, its all good till the **** hits the fan.

We all need to grow up, we need to allow for research and advancement not concealment and deception. Legalise drugs in sport. let us move forward and find out just what can be done rather than pretending it doesnt happen.

 

[Escarabajo]

I agree with David on his post.

Besides we have another problem which has gotten out of our hands which is the best riders belong to the teams with probably the best doctors. Budget is an important factor also because you need the expensive programs.

How do you think I feel for the Cololmbian riders whose economy is marginal and don't even have remotely the best doctors in the field? Only a few of them have dear to cross the ocean and dope like the eurepeans in order to stay in the Pro-Tour. As far as Colombian cycling is concerned as conceived in the 80's with a lot of riders on Colombian teams have dissapeared. Look at the nineties. After 1992 it was all over. There is no way we can compete with those budgets. I can not avoid the thought that "Organize Doping" put us out for good.

I just gave an example of a Country whose fanatism for the sport is quite big. But what about other riders from other countries. They better put the money down to pay for the Ferraris, Checcinis, Conconis plus the "Good Juice". Thats not a leveled playing field, isn't it?

Note that I am assuming that you understand the difference between doping in the last 15 years and doping during the Hinault, Merkx, and others. I understand that doping has always been part of the sport to a high degree in all decades. So don't need to remind me of that.

 

[Bronstein]

So an F1 team with $500 mil in the bank v's an F1 team with $50 mil is fair?

USA and Australia have pools worth over $20 mil with motion capture and bio-mechanical analysis software to fine tune their athletes, legal, but fair to poor African nations?

A cycling team like Saxo or Astana v's Skill or AG2R fair?

Nope, non of it fair and where there is more money there is better research and more advanced ways to hide things, kinda like the global financial crisis, its all good till the **** hits the fan.

We all need to grow up, we need to allow for research and advancement not concealment and deception. Legalise drugs in sport. let us move forward and find out just what can be done rather than pretending it doesnt happen.

Do you think that large sponsors would still be attracted to professional cycling given the fairly radical nature of legalising doping and the many people who may be opposed to such change?

 

[usedtobefast]

Money changes everything

Professional sports of all kinds thrive on who has the most cash.
Where do the vitamins stop and p.e.d.'s begin? Most people just want
to see faster,farther, higher in any form. It is just evolution.

 

[davidg]

Professional sports of all kinds thrive on who has the most cash.
Where do the vitamins stop and p.e.d.'s begin? Most people just want
to see faster,farther, higher in any form. It is just evolution.

Easy

vitamins are allowed - PED's are not.

Again - it is determined by the rules of the sport

 

[beroepsrenner]

Johnny C. You have missed my point!
Its illegal to smoke marijuana but it doesnt stop people doing it as is drinking alcohol and driving a motor vehicle. Rules will always be bent/broken. You either find a foolproof way to prevent it or you legalise it. Professional sport is not some idealistic shangri la as some would see it. Its about winning however you can gain an advantage.

 

[Bronstein]

Johnny C. You have missed my point!
Its illegal to smoke marijuana but it doesnt stop people doing it as is drinking alcohol and driving a motor vehicle. Rules will always be bent/broken. You either find a foolproof way to prevent it or you legalise it. Professional sport is not some idealistic shangri la as some would see it. Its about winning however you can gain an advantage.

Based on your logic, we may as well scrap all criminal laws and allow a free for all. Just because rules will always be broken doesn't mean they shouldn't be in place. You seem to have a warped view of morality and the value of laws.

 

[beroepsrenner]

Based on your logic, we may as well scrap all criminal laws and allow a free for all. Just because rules will always be broken doesn't mean they shouldn't be in place. You seem to have a warped view or morality and the value of laws.

Im not going to argue with that but remember I was one of these "cheaters" so i guess I have the same mindset as the majority of other pros. Over the years I have known some very good amateurs who never stepped up to pro level because they didnt have the stomach for what goes on. I still respect them for that. Everyone is free to make their own choices and I admire the many riders who choose to ride natural if thats what they want.

 

[beroepsrenner]

Nice try rookie. Next time take my advice and don't show your hand so early. You'll bait many more people. I will admit this place is full of fresh fish waiting to bite though. lol

I'm not on here to play games like some of the jokers. I'm on here to tell it as I know it and to correct some the misconceptions that many people some to display. There has been some very constructive and interesting replies to this thread and then you came along.