First EPO users in the peloton?

[issoisso]

...so let me get this straight...LeMond's VO2Max jumps thru the roof from 1979 to 1989...

Youtube or it didn't happen

(In other words. You Sourcy sourcy or no one believy believy)

he absolutely sucks in the early part of the 89 Giro...then after having a couple injections of an iron supplement mid Giro he managed a second place in the last time-trial...and then wins a Tour....but all this can be all put aside because of a fanboy issue ????...no creativity issues dear sir just some reasonable hunches based on info gleaned from the horses mouth ( in interviews )...

...added skill testing question...what drug requires large amounts of iron in the system to work...and by the way subsequent studies of the use of iron for recovery showed it has a limited practical effect...so why use it?...one, for effective functioning of the drug asked about above and two it was used as an effective masking agent for steroid use ( as were B-12 injections )...

Cheers

blutto

My god, you're right! It's not normal AT ALL for an off-form guy to ride a grand tour, do badly, steadily improve his form and performances throughout it and be in top form two months later.

In fact, it's UNHEARD OF. It didn't happen to Armstrong last year, either

 

[Gcraenen]

I doubt Berzin started doing EPO before 1994, unless absolutely all Mecair (later Gewiss) riders were put on EPO immediately and regardless of their perceived potential, which is entirely possible too.

Chiappucci probably qualifies, but that'd be in 1990 so it's not before the examples Darryl brought up. As for Bugno, no idea.

Chiapucci was on Bauer, and maybe EPO. Sorry, I still havent gotten over how he won the worlds thanks to steve Bauer's foul on Claude Criquillon.

 

[issoisso]

Chiapucci was on Bauer, and maybe EPO. Sorry, I still havent gotten over how he won the worlds thanks to steve Bauer's foul on Claude Criquillon.

That was Fondriest

 

[tobsie]

Francesco Moser

Admitted using blooddoping when breaking the hour record 84' - Rumours say Conconi and Ferrari experimented with epo on Moser.

 

[pmcg76]

I doubt Berzin started doing EPO before 1994, unless absolutely all Mecair (later Gewiss) riders were put on EPO immediately and regardless of their perceived potential, which is entirely possible too.

Chiappucci probably qualifies, but that'd be in 1990 so it's not before the examples Darryl brought up. As for Bugno, no idea.

In 93, the official team doctor with Mecair was Walter Polini who was sacked at the end of the season, during that winter of 93/94 he spoke publicly about the fact that half the team had not been under his stewardship including Moreno Argentin, Alberto Volpi(who tested positive at Leeds Classic) and a few others. Those riders were being looked after by Dr Ferrari and didnt include Berzin, Bobrik. He listed some of the products that were undetectable at the time including EPO suggesting they were being used by the Ferrari riders.

Argentin was then quoted as saying he wouldnt have gone to Polini even if he only had a cold. In 94 Ferrari was the official doctor for the entire team when they were dominating everything and he made his infamous comments about EPO being no more dangerous than orange juice. He was dismissed as official team doctor after that comment but was allowed to work with riders on an individual basis

 

[Maxiton]

Guys

The first epo user is probably one of them DEAD.

EPO was first outlawed because cyclists were dropping dead on the road.

Too many to name one

They weren't dropping dead on the road. They were dropping dead at night in their sleep. Race authorities instituted the 50% hemocrit rule so that the nighttime deaths would stop. Bad publicity. They did call this making EPO illegal, but really riders could still take as long as hemocrit didn't exceed 50%. And even then riders could get an exemption from this limit.

A good friend of mine is about as well informed as anyone regarding which products "help", legal and illegal, although he's not into masking agents or change of being caught, specializing in WADA-legal additives. He had an eye on EPO already in the mid-80's, predicting it would ruin professional sports for all the reasons we now know as facts.

From what I gathered, about 20 amateurs died in Belgium and the netherlands in 88 and 89 from suspected EPO use.
In other words they were the guinea pigs.
When doctors more or less had mastered the doses and "proper" techniques, pros dove in, starting mostly in 1990.
The only pros I know of who died early on and were clearly taking EPO were OOSTERBOSCH - an excellent TT racer - and Draijier ( sorry for the spelling) whose wife asked for an autopsy ( he died at age 26).
It probably took some effort to master sufficient knowledge and one can assume first tests were made on one day races.
In 1990 I was injured and could follow the Giro d'Italia much more closely than normal. It's only many years later that I understood those events that baffled me so much at the time.
When I realized what had happened in 1990 at that Giro, I started thinking about earlier events and I had some suspicions on LeMond in 89 ( after all he had been hospitalized in 1987 and I thought maybe he was given EPO at the time), but considering his current fight against doping I have to rule that out.

Your decision to believe LeMond is faith-based. LeMond is vocally opposed to doping and to Armstrong, therefore LeMond must be telling the truth about his own dope use. But the thing is, LeMond was a leading professional in the European peloton. How does that square with being clean? Did he do EPO? Probably not, but who knows. We have his words (and his results) to go on. I'd tend to believe the results over the words - which is why I say "probably not."

Somewhere around here I've got a bookmark to info about some doping doctor LeMond was associated with. Right now I can't find it. Anybody know who I'm talking about?

 

[pmcg76]

They weren't dropping dead on the road. They were dropping dead at night in their sleep. Race authorities instituted the 50% hemocrit rule so that the nighttime deaths would stop. Bad publicity. They did call this making EPO illegal, but really riders could still take as long as hemocrit didn't exceed 50%. And even then riders could get an exemption from this limit.





Your decision to believe LeMond is faith-based. LeMond is vocally opposed to doping and to Armstrong, therefore LeMond must be telling the truth about his own dope use. But the thing is, LeMond was a leading professional in the European peloton. How does that square with being clean? Did he do EPO? Probably not, but who knows. We have his words (and his results) to go on. I'd tend to believe the results over the words - which is why I say "probably not."

Somewhere around here I've got a bookmark to info about some doping doctor LeMond was associated with. Right now I can't find it. Anybody know who I'm talking about?

It was actually the riders themselves who asked for the restrictions to be put in place which says it all really. They started to wonder where it would all end.

On the LeMond doctor link. Was it Van Mol you are thinking of?

 

[Maxiton]

It was actually the riders themselves who asked for the restrictions to be put in place which says it all really. They started to wonder where it would all end.

I didn't know that. Pretty chilling. "Can you please help us a little to stop killing ourselves? Thanks."

On the LeMond doctor link. Was it Van Mol you are thinking of?

Not sure, but I'll check it out. Thanks.

 

[Le breton]

One mans sarcasm is another mans genuine view around here.
Its hard to tell the difference sometimes.

Its hard to tell the difference sometimes

I guess you must be joking

 

[pmcg76]

I didn't know that. Pretty chilling. "Can you please help us a little to stop killing ourselves? Thanks."



Not sure, but I'll check it out. Thanks.

Yeah, I think the PCA(Professional Cyclists Association) realised it(EPO) was a runaway train with rumours of Haematocrit levels of 60 and they approached the UCI about introducing restrictions.

It was mentioned in the updated 1998 version of A rough Ride by Paul Kimmage in the chapter that detailed the suppressed Donati report. There was a piece on a retired French rider Nicolas Aubier in which he talked about doping, he said if riders were calling for restrictions, then they had found some new products to take instead.

 

[Le breton]

Fignon admitted his doping in his book so i see no reason why he would leave out EPO.

I see many reasons to leave out EPO. Basically admitting his misdemeanors to avoid being accused of crimes. It worked on you, you must be young. (Carefree maybe also)

 

[blutto]

Youtube or it didn't happen

(In other words. You Sourcy sourcy or no one believy believy)



My god, you're right! It's not normal AT ALL for an off-form guy to ride a grand tour, do badly, steadily improve his form and performances throughout it and be in top form two months later.

In fact, it's UNHEARD OF. It didn't happen to Armstrong last year, either

...sorry no Youtube proof but it was talked to death in the LeMond thread...check Krebs cycle on this as he seems to have the best take on it...

....as for the "build-up" during the Giro for the Tour...of course that is not unknown in fact such build-ups are common though done in smaller stage races...it was the rapid rise during the Giro that was so surprising....sort of like having your hematocrit % go up during the course of a stage race....and of course that happens all the time..right!?...

...and could you please take your Scourcy scourcy believey believey schtick over to the Indurain thread because your high evidentiary standards would be put to really good use there...

Cheers

blutto

 

[hrotha]

In 93, the official team doctor with Mecair was Walter Polini who was sacked at the end of the season, during that winter of 93/94 he spoke publicly about the fact that half the team had not been under his stewardship including Moreno Argentin, Alberto Volpi(who tested positive at Leeds Classic) and a few others. Those riders were being looked after by Dr Ferrari and didnt include Berzin, Bobrik. He listed some of the products that were undetectable at the time including EPO suggesting they were being used by the Ferrari riders.

Argentin was then quoted as saying he wouldnt have gone to Polini even if he only had a cold. In 94 Ferrari was the official doctor for the entire team when they were dominating everything and he made his infamous comments about EPO being no more dangerous than orange juice. He was dismissed as official team doctor after that comment but was allowed to work with riders on an individual basis

Interesting, I didn't know that. Thanks.

 

[blutto]

What's strange, though, is the lack of rumors. The riders from that era all seem pretty keyed in to what their peers were up to.

I'm willing to accept that Lemond doped, but he's one of the few that you don't even hear whispers about.

Hunches and speculation from outsiders are worth far less than anecdotes from insiders.

EDIT: ***. I just looked at your post history. Silly me for not checking that prior to responding!

1)...remember these were the pre-Festina days and things very much under control because as much as anything there wasn't the wide-spread cynicism we have now...and yes there were rumours but those usually held within the inner circle of peers...I rode in that era and I heard the rumours but who to tell and why...

2)...why no whispers?...it was a tight ship back then...and if you have noticed LeMond is really quick with lawsuits..so if someone had something to tell what is the reward...a legal slap in the "boys"...

3)...it was a smallish community back then and you were generally a training partner away from "the peers"

4)...and oh yes my evil track record on these pages...I had the temerity to question the timeline of the introduction of EPO...well check back thru this thread and you will note that there seems to be some acknowledgement of EPO use before even 1988/9 ( when EPO was officially introduced)...and yes, in plenty of time for a miracle...

Cheers

blutto

 

[blutto]

Or you could just ask yourself what drug would continue to be effective for over two months after being administered.

Cheers

M8

...actually the timeline should include the World Championship...so lets make it 3 months...but why?...

...one could conceivably take a potion several times in a three month period could you not...or is there some official like rule against that, that I'm not aware of ?...enlighten O wise one...

Cheers

blutto

 

[pmcg76]

1)...remember these were the pre-Festina days and things very much under control because as much as anything there wasn't the wide-spread cynicism we have now...and yes there were rumours but those usually held within the inner circle of peers...I rode in that era and I heard the rumours but who to tell and why...

2)...why no whispers?...it was a tight ship back then...and if you have noticed LeMond is really quick with lawsuits..so if someone had something to tell what is the reward...a legal slap in the "boys"...

3)...it was a smallish community back then and you were generally a training partner away from "the peers"

4)...and oh yes my evil track record on these pages...I had the temerity to question the timeline of the introduction of EPO...well check back thru this thread and you will note that there seems to be some acknowledgement of EPO use before even 1988/9 ( when EPO was officially introduced)...and yes, in plenty of time for a miracle...

Cheers

blutto

LeMond returned to somewhere near his previous high level, hardly a miracle.

LeMond was well out of contention long before the final TT so he was encouraged to focus on the last TT as an objective. Is it a surprise when Cancellara wins the final TT in the Tour after being rubbish in the mountains?

I find the idea of a small team like ADR being ahead on the game when it came to EPO use as very unrealistic.

I know of one rider on this forum who was a Euro pro around that time and he never heard anything suspicious about LeMond and believes he was clean.

 

[blutto]

Or perhaps he was lacking in iron as he was coming back from a major trauma?

Iron was not recognised as something for the system to work (which it didn't) until well in to the 90's. But has all been explained to you before - if you want to revisit it bring back up the LeMond thread.

...Mr. Dr. sir may I point out the trauma was almost 2 years before that...so basically traumatized for two years and then a recovery for the ages....yeah that makes real sense...and oh yeah the recovery revolves around some iron supplement ?????( and that my friends is how the real official story was written at the time ...and in the real world the joke at the time was ...everyone on our group rides would call for those magic injections when they bonked or got dropped )...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Darryl Webster]

Blutto, for reasons best known to yourself you seem to want to press the pont that you dont believe Lemond was clean.

The thread tittle was asking who and when forumites think may have been the first users of EPO in the peloton.
You have absalutley no evidence that Lemond was that rider and neither does anyone else here.
As this isnt a Lemond V Lance thread ( like far to many threads have become) do you think it would be to much trouble to take your ideas over to a more suited thread?
The world of doping did not begin or end with iether rider.
I`ve sugested Rooks and Thunisse may have been amongst the earliest, othere have sugested others...Bugno for instance...but at least theres a slither of evidence to back the sugestions up.
You have none.
TTFN

 

[red_flanders]

...actually the timeline should include the World Championship...so lets make it 3 months...but why?...

...one could conceivably take a potion several times in a three month period could you not...or is there some official like rule against that, that I'm not aware of ?...enlighten O wise one...

Cheers

blutto

Am I the only one who thinks the whole line of iron shots were EPO "thinking" is flawed, or bordering on the preposterous or idiotic?

You all do recall it was LeMond who told the press about it. Unbidden. Right?

You can cast all the unfounded accusations without one shred of evidence you like (I guess), but the iron shots thing is about as ridiculous as it gets.

Oh wait--I see you have "rumors". Not about anyone or anything specific even, but "rumors". I find it amazing that no one has EVER come forward with even testimonial evidence about LeMond. I will grant you that the idea that LeMond would slap you with a lawsuit as soon if you did a new one, that's good creativity. Any evidence of that? A particular suit slapped on someone for suggesting he used? Anything?

In 20 years, I've never seen even a microbe of evidence. That, in cycling, is amazing.

 

[blutto]

Am I the only one who thinks the whole line of iron shots were EPO "thinking" is flawed, or bordering on the preposterous or idiotic?

You all do recall it was LeMond who told the press about it. Unbidden. Right?

You can cast all the unfounded accusations without one shred of evidence you like (I guess), but the iron shots thing is about as ridiculous as it gets.

Oh wait--I see you have "rumors". Not about anyone or anything specific even, but "rumors". I find it amazing that no one has EVER come forward with even testimonial evidence about LeMond. I will grant you that the idea that LeMond would slap you with a lawsuit as soon if you did a new one, that's good creativity. Any evidence of that? A particular suit slapped on someone for suggesting he used? Anything?

In 20 years, I've never seen even a microbe of evidence. That, in cycling, is amazing.

...no one suggested that the iron shots were EPO....but what is known is that in order to maintain the higher than normal levels of hematocrit that are the result of EPO use the body requires a really large input of iron ( Pantani when he was nailed for drug use had iron levels bordering on toxic )....so the question remains why take the iron and then attribute to it something it would not really produce in and of itself...I find that curious...

...and its interesting that your personal timeframe in this field is 20 years...so what you are saying is that this is actually all outside your direct perview...my interest in this field runs back almost 40 years...do I have a better perspective...maybe....

Cheers

blutto

 

[Major Taylor]

title says nothing about famous.

But, Im sure to their loved ones they were plenty famous.

OK lets discuss all the cyclists who used EPO that no one has ever heard off.

You go first

 

[Race Radio]

...no one suggested that the iron shots were EPO....but what is known is that in order to maintain the higher than normal levels of hematocrit that are the result of EPO use the body requires a really large input of iron ( Pantani when he was nailed for drug use had iron levels bordering on toxic )....so the question remains why take the iron and then attribute to it something it would not really produce in and of itself...I find that curious...

...and its interesting that your personal timeframe in this field is 20 years...so what you are saying is that this is actually all outside your direct perview...my interest in this field runs back almost 40 years...do I have a better perspective...maybe....

Cheers

blutto

You may want to develop a different "theory"

The use of Iron supplementation in conjugation with EPO was not a common practice until the mid 90's. The need for supplementation was not known until a large number of patients started taking the drug. The idea that Lemond some how got hold of the experimental drug prior to it's FDA approval AND figured out that it would work better with Iron supplementation years before the medical industry did is absurd.

Please also tell us when Pantani was "Nailed for Drugs".....or did you make that up too?

 

[Race Radio]

...no one suggested that the iron shots were EPO....but what is known is that in order to maintain the higher than normal levels of hematocrit that are the result of EPO use the body requires a really large input of iron ( Pantani when he was nailed for drug use had iron levels bordering on toxic )....so the question remains why take the iron and then attribute to it something it would not really produce in and of itself...I find that curious...

...and its interesting that your personal timeframe in this field is 20 years...so what you are saying is that this is actually all outside your direct perview...my interest in this field runs back almost 40 years...do I have a better perspective...maybe....

Cheers

blutto

You may want to develop a different "theory"

The use of Iron supplementation in conjugation with EPO was not a common practice until the mid 90's. The need for supplementation was not known until a large number of patients started taking the drug. The idea that Lemond some how got hold of the experimental drug prior to it's FDA approval AND figured out that it would work better with Iron supplementation years before the medical industry did is absurd. It is too bad these guys who did the pioneering study in 1996 did not know of Greg's big discovery.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8914038
It would have saved them so much time

Please also tell us when Pantani was "Nailed for Drugs".....or did you make that up too?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

...no one suggested that the iron shots were EPO....but what is known is that in order to maintain the higher than normal levels of hematocrit that are the result of EPO use the body requires a really large input of iron ( Pantani when he was nailed for drug use had iron levels bordering on toxic )....so the question remains why take the iron and then attribute to it something it would not really produce in and of itself...I find that curious...

...and its interesting that your personal timeframe in this field is 20 years...so what you are saying is that this is actually all outside your direct perview...my interest in this field runs back almost 40 years...do I have a better perspective...maybe....

Cheers

blutto

"do you have a better perspective...maybe...." - Maybe indeed......but do you have a neutral perspective? No.

Did you ever find a 'report' to back up your claim that LeMond had his spleen removed?

Again - if you have anything new on LeMond, besides your opinion bring it up on the relevant Lemond thread.

 

[blutto]

You may want to develop a different "theory"

The use of Iron supplementation in conjugation with EPO was not a common practice until the mid 90's. The need for supplementation was not known until a large number of patients started taking the drug. The idea that Lemond some how got hold of the experimental drug prior to it's FDA approval AND figured out that it would work better with Iron supplementation years before the medical industry did is absurd. It is too bad these guys who did the pioneering study in 1996 did not know of Greg's big discovery.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8914038
It would have saved them so much time

Please also tell us when Pantani was "Nailed for Drugs".....or did you make that up too?

...while not the best reference this will have to do for the time being....from Wiki....the crash they refer to was I believe the "cat crash"...

"Things turned bad for Pantani towards the end of the 1999 Giro. He won four stages, with his challengers far away, and only one mountain stage left: however, he was disqualified for a high red blood-cell count which suggested EPO. Later, it was revealed he had a hematocrit level of 60 per cent after his crash in 1995, above the later limit of 50.[6] Pantani stayed away from the rest of the year's races"

...as for the clinical trial you found...well the toxic levels of iron I spoke of earlier were found in blood samples taken during Pantani's hospital stay immediately after the 1995 crash ...the clinical trial you produced was from late 1996 and Pantani's crash was early 1995...so either the doping protocols of cyclists were ahead of medical procedures by at least a year and a half or that clinical trial you refer to is not quite what you think it is...it would be real interesting at this point to look up the original clinical trials from the mid 1980's to see how the iron issue was dealt with...because I really don't see how the Amgen folks would have missed the importance of iron for successful implementaion of EPO...

.....so what is your theory now?????......

Cheers

blutto