First EPO users in the peloton?

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

Pointing out that LeMond's father-in-law is a doctor is not an insinuation. Nor is it an insinuation to say if LeMond had access to EPO - if - maybe it was through his father-in-law. Maybe. As in perhaps, possibly, conceivably. Purely hypothetical, rhetorical, non-accusatory.

No one here, to my knowledge, has asserted this as having any great likelihood. If you find someone has, though, please point it out so that the comment - and the commenter - can be corrected.

So what is the relevance to the topic of pointing out that LeMond's father-in-law was a doctor? Was it a random factoid just inserted for the lols?

See above. Do you know the difference between insinuation and possibility?

Yes. Do you?

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

Damn. I'm fascinated by the topic of who were the first EPO users, and when I saw the topic bumped I really thought something new would be here....nope.

Anyway, to those talking about allergy, the two uses for which EPO was being developed in the early-mid 80s was as treatment for eczema and kidney failure. The eczema path was abandoned during clinical trials as it proved ineffective. Proved quite effective for kidney failure induced anemia though.

That is an interesting bit of trivia. As for the topic of the thread, I doubt any new information is going to be forthcoming. Probably one of the greatest stories never told.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

From the Amgen website about the usage of EPO (Epogen). It is not used for immunotherapy and it is not used for allergy.

Epogen is an erythropoiesis-stimulating agent (ESA) indicated for:
• Treatment of anemia due to
- Chronic Kidney Disease (CKD) in patients on dialysis and not on
dialysis (1.1).
- Zidovudine in HIV-infected patients (1.2).
- The effects of concomitant myelosuppressive chemotherapy, and upon
initiation, there is a minimum of two additional months of planned
chemotherapy (1.3).
• Reduction of allogeneic RBC transfusions in patients undergoing elective,
noncardiac, nonvascular surgery (1.4).

http://pi.amgen.com/united_states/epogen/epogen_pi_hcp_english.pdf

...before you jump to conclusions there is a term you may want to acquaint yourself with, its called off-label, or off-label usage, and its commonly used...

Cheers

So in other words anything could mean anything one claims it does "oh that's off-[label] that's why you don't see it there". I'll have to remember that.

....not really, what it means is that drugs used "off label" are for purposes not specifically tested for or approved for...and such use in not uncommon...

Cheers

 

[blutto]

Re:

We've been hashing over this anemia thing for so long that we should all understand the main nuance that use of EPO was restricted to very specific conditions (i.e anemia due to failing kidneys). It is really a 0% probability that LeMond was ever given EPO for medical reasons. A falsehood has been repeated so many times that people are now associating EPO/ kidneys/ anemia/ and LeMond as if this is a valid way to connect the dots. Obviously, I disagree strongly.

...kinda funny the following statement appeared in a post immediately following yours...

Proved quite effective for kidney failure induced anemia though

...could you reconcile the two bolded bits because I'm a bit confused...

Cheers

 

[djpbaltimore]

LeMond's anemia was not related to his kidneys. That is the falsehood that a certain poster has suggested repeatedly. I never claimed that epo was not a beneficial treatment for those on dialysis.

 

[aphronesis]

Wild how quickly the coincidence, correlation, causation vector gets built by those not wanting anything to be there.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

We've been hashing over this anemia thing for so long that we should all understand the main nuance that use of EPO was restricted to very specific conditions (i.e anemia due to failing kidneys). It is really a 0% probability that LeMond was ever given EPO for medical reasons. A falsehood has been repeated so many times that people are now associating EPO/ kidneys/ anemia/ and LeMond as if this is a valid way to connect the dots. Obviously, I disagree strongly.

...kinda funny the following statement appeared in a post immediately following yours...

Proved quite effective for kidney failure induced anemia though

...could you reconcile the two bolded bits because I'm a bit confused...

Cheers

To toss the ball/grenade back into your court: Please describe kidney failure.

Bonus points: Compare Lemond to someone who has kidney failure.

John Swanson

 

[djpbaltimore]

@aphronesis. That reads like a buddhist koan. I am seriously curious what that string of techno jargon actually means.

 

[sniper]

Re:

LeMond's anemia was not related to his kidneys. That is the falsehood that a certain poster has suggested repeatedly. I never claimed that epo was not a beneficial treatment for those on dialysis.

link to that poster/post please. I think ur fighting windmills.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

We've been hashing over this anemia thing for so long that we should all understand the main nuance that use of EPO was restricted to very specific conditions (i.e anemia due to failing kidneys). It is really a 0% probability that LeMond was ever given EPO for medical reasons. A falsehood has been repeated so many times that people are now associating EPO/ kidneys/ anemia/ and LeMond as if this is a valid way to connect the dots. Obviously, I disagree strongly.

...kinda funny the following statement appeared in a post immediately following yours...2

Proved quite effective for kidney failure induced anemia though

...could you reconcile the two bolded bits because I'm a bit confused...

Cheers

To toss the ball/grenade back into your court: Please describe kidney failure.

Bonus points: Compare Lemond to someone who has kidney failure.

John Swanson

newsflash: you and djpbaltimore are the only ones to claim to *know* what the true condition lemonds kidney(s) is/was. Which is remarkable. Much like buying into Froome,s bilharzia account without further questioning, and despite the fact that there isnt one coherent account of it, but multiple, depending on the source.

Really, the point to bear in mind here is that lemond with his kidney issus and anemia would have been a better candidate for EPO than most other proriders out there.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

We've been hashing over this anemia thing for so long that we should all understand the main nuance that use of EPO was restricted to very specific conditions (i.e anemia due to failing kidneys). It is really a 0% probability that LeMond was ever given EPO for medical reasons. A falsehood has been repeated so many times that people are now associating EPO/ kidneys/ anemia/ and LeMond as if this is a valid way to connect the dots. Obviously, I disagree strongly.

...kinda funny the following statement appeared in a post immediately following yours...2

Proved quite effective for kidney failure induced anemia though

...could you reconcile the two bolded bits because I'm a bit confused...

Cheers

To toss the ball/grenade back into your court: Please describe kidney failure.

Bonus points: Compare Lemond to someone who has kidney failure.

John Swanson

newsflash: you and djpbaltimore are the only ones to claim to *know* what the true condition lemonds kidney(s) is/was. Which is remarkable. Much like buying into Froome,s bilharzia account without further questioning, and despite the fact that there isnt one coherent account of it, but multiple, depending on the source.

Really, the point to bear in mind here is that lemond with his kidney issus and anemia would have been a better candidate for EPO than most other proriders out there.

sniper...you didn't need a 'cover story' back in the day

you are creating one to prove your theory

if you wanted to dope back in the day...you just...eh...did

and surely a rider with no problems would benefit even more than somebody with? no?

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

We've been hashing over this anemia thing for so long that we should all understand the main nuance that use of EPO was restricted to very specific conditions (i.e anemia due to failing kidneys). It is really a 0% probability that LeMond was ever given EPO for medical reasons. A falsehood has been repeated so many times that people are now associating EPO/ kidneys/ anemia/ and LeMond as if this is a valid way to connect the dots. Obviously, I disagree strongly.

...kinda funny the following statement appeared in a post immediately following yours...2

Proved quite effective for kidney failure induced anemia though

...could you reconcile the two bolded bits because I'm a bit confused...

Cheers

To toss the ball/grenade back into your court: Please describe kidney failure.

Bonus points: Compare Lemond to someone who has kidney failure.

John Swanson

newsflash: you and djpbaltimore are the only ones to claim to *know* what the true condition lemonds kidney(s) is/was. Which is remarkable. Much like buying into Froome,s bilharzia account without further questioning, and despite the fact that there isnt one coherent account of it, but multiple, depending on the source.

Really, the point to bear in mind here is that lemond with his kidney issus and anemia would have been a better candidate for EPO than most other proriders out there.

Or not, since we don't know the extent of his kidney condition. You seem to link aenemia directly to EPO and spent a big deal of effort trying to prove your point. Have you at least given a 3rd of this energy to explore the effects of aneamia on a pro athlete and the effects that could sustain iron shots ?

It's great to explore a new narrative but did you at least try to give the official narrative some credit ?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

we don't know the extent of his kidney condition.

THANK YOU!

You seem to link aenemia directly to EPO

they are linked, that's all.

and spent a big deal of effort trying to prove your point.

there's no "your point".

Have you at least given a 3rd of this energy to explore the effects of aneamia on a pro athlete and the effects that could sustain iron shots ?

be my guest. Drop me a line when you find something interesting. I'm all for sharing new info.

It's great to explore a new narrative but did you at least try to give the official narrative some credit ?

what 'new narrative'? sounds like a strawman. I just posted some info.
Why not just appreciate the info and take it for what it is. If Lemond was clean, information and transparency should be his friend.

 

[Mr.38%]

At that time (and many still believe this) a Hct dropping below 40 or so was considered a bad thing and thus diagnosed as "anemia" because on some charts, a typical male is anemic even below 42%. Total Hb mass will be the same, maybe even bigger, though. Accumulated fatigue was wrongly attributed to the low Hct, which is just a body's mechanism for better blood flow and less stress to the heart.

Iron or B12 shots were absolutely common during the 80/90ies.

 

[sniper]

Re:

...
Iron or B12 shots were absolutely common during the 80/90ies.

they were, but hardly ever did they come in isolation.

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

...
Iron or B12 shots were absolutely common during the 80/90ies.

they were, but hardly ever did they come in isolation.

Says who? Or do you think everybody in the 80"s got a good dose of EPO together with iron or B12 shots?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Iron or B12 shots were absolutely common during the 80/90ies.

they were, but hardly ever did they come in isolation.

Says who? Or do you think everybody in the 80"s got a good dose of EPO together with iron or B12 shots?

to be fair, it would probably be good to have a separate thread focusing solely on the question how widespread doping was in the 80s, and what kinds of doping it included.
there are people claiming it was rampant (that would include me), and there are people claiming it wasn't.
there are many statements and testimonies and positives suggesting it was widespread, much has been posted also, but they just get lost in the stream of information, which is normal in a thread dedicated to so many issues at the same time. Probably there are also arguments to the contrary.
Imo it would be good to have a separate thread on that (doping in the 80s) to collect the evidence (pro and contra). Just thinking out loud.

 

[blutto]

Re:

At that time (and many still believe this) a Hct dropping below 40 or so was considered a bad thing and thus diagnosed as "anemia" because on some charts, a typical male is anemic even below 42%. Total Hb mass will be the same, maybe even bigger, though. Accumulated fatigue was wrongly attributed to the low Hct, which is just a body's mechanism for better blood flow and less stress to the heart.

Iron or B12 shots were absolutely common during the 80/90ies.

...yes they were...the problem is that the results that were attributed to them does not jive with the responses you would normally expect ( neither Iron or B12 shots give a very quick energy pick-em-up as generally claimed by the cyclists who took them...and yes there are quotes and references up thread to confirm this....)...

...so the question is why were they taken ?....well.....what did exist in that era was the belief that those types of shots were effective masking agents for PEDs, primarily steroids and their various derivatives....now this is not to say that such shots would not have legitimate long term effects but such effects could more easily be gotten by eating properly and recovering well which are more critical to cycling success than some random shots...

Cheers

 

[Mr.38%]

This is what you suggest. I think that knowledge was very limited at that time - in general. They used what they thought was useful. They probably used more if they were in contention for an important win.

Old local elite amateurs and pros from my area have hilarious stories about this, it's mazing.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

LeMond's anemia was not related to his kidneys. That is the falsehood that a certain poster has suggested repeatedly. I never claimed that epo was not a beneficial treatment for those on dialysis.

link to that poster/post please. I think ur fighting windmills.

The links will be posted in the moderator thread (most likely this weekend). There is a lot to sift through. Thank you for the compliment of grouping me with ScienceIsCool. IMO, no one does a better job of using scientific logic and reasoning to make their points than John. However, please link to where I claim to "know" LeMond's kidney function. This is another gross misstatement of my position. I have always expressed my opinions as opinions. Based on what we know about medical science and what we have been told about his kidneys, there is no evidence that LeMond ever would've been in a situation where he would've been prescribed EPO.

The narrative makes sense on a superficial level. LeMond is prescribed EPO and the light bulb goes off in his head, and he uses his medical connections to secure EPO for use in doping. If this were a Lifetime Movie, this is how it would be portrayed. But that argument is much too facile and no part of that narrative stands up to any kind of scrutiny. I asked this once before and I'll ask again, does anyone think that LeMond was prescribed EPO at any time in his life? If yes, for what reason and when? If the answer is no, why are his kidney issues brought up every couple weeks as a smoking gun when they are merely another red herring.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

LeMond's anemia was not related to his kidneys. That is the falsehood that a certain poster has suggested repeatedly. I never claimed that epo was not a beneficial treatment for those on dialysis.

link to that poster/post please. I think ur fighting windmills.

The links will be posted in the moderator thread (most likely this weekend). There is a lot to sift through. Thank you for the compliment of grouping me with ScienceIsCool. IMO, no one does a better job of using scientific logic and reasoning to make their points than John. However, please link to where I claim to "know" LeMond's kidney function. This is another gross misstatement of my position. I have always expressed my opinions as opinions. Based on what we know about medical science and what we have been told about his kidneys, there is no evidence that LeMond ever would've been in a situation where he would've been prescribed EPO.

The narrative makes sense on a superficial level. LeMond is prescribed EPO and the light bulb goes off in his head, and he uses his medical connections to secure EPO for use in doping. If this were a Lifetime Movie, this is how it would be portrayed. But that argument is much too facile and no part of that narrative stands up to any kind of scrutiny. I asked this once before and I'll ask again, does anyone think that LeMond was prescribed EPO at any time in his life? If yes, for what reason and when?

In an interview from 2006 he says about his recovery from the shooting:

"if I would have had a blood transfusion or EPO it would have sped up my recovery dramatically".

(he says he couldn't get a blood transfusion because of a sudden spike in aids patients in his hospital and subsequent risk of infection)
http://competitorradio.competitor.com/?powerpress_pinw=21-podcast

djpbaltimore: If the answer is no, why are his kidney issues brought up every couple weeks as a smoking gun when they are merely another red herring.

Strawman noted. They aren't brought up as a smoking gun.
It is occasional misinformation like Scienceiscool's claim that Lemond had two kidneys, and a whole lot of your own strawmen (such as this one) that keeps this line of discussion going. Apart from that, I think everything has been said about this. At least I have.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Great, then quit resurrecting this point, over and over and over again. We know know from LeMond's own words that he was not given EPO for his injuries. I notice that you yet again refuse to answer any direct question put to you.

IMO, this statement definitely sounds like a smoking gun statement.

With his chronic kidney condition and anemia combined, Lemond, like no other cyclist of that era to my knowledge, ticks all the boxes for having been an Amgen labrat:

viewtopic.php?p=1772499#p1772499

 

[sniper]

Re:

Great, then quit resurrecting this point, over and over and over again. We know know from LeMond's own words that he was not given EPO for his injuries. I notice that you yet again refuse to answer any direct question put to you.

IMO, this statement definitely sounds like a smoking gun statement.

With his chronic kidney condition and anemia combined, Lemond, like no other cyclist of that era to my knowledge, ticks all the boxes for having been an Amgen labrat:

viewtopic.php?p=1772499#p1772499

great, so no smoking gun statement after all
also, still waiting for your link to a post or poster claiming "LeMond's anemia was related to his kidneys".
if you have any off topic issues left, please take them to the sidebar thread or pm.

edit: and please appreciate how Lemond confirms what i said about him having been a very plausible beneficiary of EPO treatment.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Look at the top of this page for your answer. I guess LeMond is not aware that EPO requires longer to generate RBCs, so that is why trauma patients receive transfusions. Makes sense as he is not a doctor. If EPO was beneficial for this use, wouldn't Amgen be marketing it for that very purpose? I guess they just don't want that money. Plus, in the time period where he was injured it wasn't in widespread use. This confirms my point that the likelihood that he had a medical prescription for EPO was essentially 0%.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re:

Great, then quit resurrecting this point, over and over and over again. We know know from LeMond's own words that he was not given EPO for his injuries. I notice that you yet again refuse to answer any direct question put to you.

IMO, this statement definitely sounds like a smoking gun statement.

With his chronic kidney condition and anemia combined, Lemond, like no other cyclist of that era to my knowledge, ticks all the boxes for having been an Amgen labrat:

viewtopic.php?p=1772499#p1772499

Well if you take all of those boxes and if indeed they are ticked then one could say Greg would be a candidate for the "Amgen labrat". But so far I'm not sure he ticked all the boxes. The reason I say that is Greg's own statements with respect to his own health issues is inconsistent. He changes some things and details depending on when he was interviewed over the years.

But the time line (EPO in the Peloton) has been pushed back a bit from what was previously noted.