First EPO users in the peloton?

[Maxiton]

Hinault was a known proponent of autologous blood transfusion, i.e. blood doping, and he freely discussed it at the time. Or at least he discussed it once, because I have the interview. I'll post a link to it when I get home tonight.
Some have said that blood doping is just as effective as EPO.

 

[andy1234]

Speculation? Please show me what you have?

Why don't you show me the proof that they didn't work with pro cyclists?

Are you saying that they worked on research on blood doping with Moser in 1984, put all that work on ice and then only decided to come back to the sport with the introduction of EPO.

It seems far fetched.....

 

[pmcg76]

I'll spout anything I like thanks. You havn't been paying attention if you think that everything posted around here is based on hard facts.

If blood doping was prevalent and highly successfull in other areas of cycle racing, then there is a good chance that it filtered through to the highest level of the sport, documented or not.

Then perhaps you can give a logical explanation as to why it was undocumented and not just your own 'guesswork'. As I said I am not ruling it out 100% but it would seem highly unlikely it was taking place.

 

[andy1234]

Hinault was a known proponent of autologous blood transfusion, i.e. blood doping, and he freely discussed it at the time. Or at least he discussed it once, because I have the interview. I'll post a link to it when I get home tonight.
Some have said that blood doping is just as effective as EPO.

Interesting quote by Hinault....

Interview - Philippe Brunel, special envoy of l'Équipe at Futuroscope

What is your position in the face of statements by Moser, who made use this spring of blood transfusions?

Moser made use of autotransfusion. So he was playing with his own blood. He did no more no less that the Finnish athletes, Lasse Viren and the others. It suffices to take some of ones own blood during the spring when it is rich, hyperoxygenated, and to reinject it when one is fatigued. Is that really doping? Maybe not, except if the blood is placed into a machine to reoxygenate it to the maximum.

 

[ultimobici]

Interesting quote by Hinault....

Interview - Philippe Brunel, special envoy of l'Équipe at Futuroscope

What is your position in the face of statements by Moser, who made use this spring of blood transfusions?

Moser made use of autotransfusion. So he was playing with his own blood. He did no more no less that the Finnish athletes, Lasse Viren and the others. It suffices to take some of ones own blood during the spring when it is rich, hyperoxygenated, and to reinject it when one is fatigued. Is that really doping? Maybe not, except if the blood is placed into a machine to reoxygenate it to the maximum.

To have done this up to 1986 was entirely within the rules. Ergo not doping.

 

[red_flanders]

...if you actually want to see the application of zero evidence go over to the Indurain thread...so being the defender of the wrongfully wronged why don't you just skip over there and do some defending...

....I'm not arguing the necessary conditions here...or even the sufficient ones...just pointing out some circumstantial stuff that I have always found curious and which incidently reflected some of the rumours/anectodes/stories that came from people I thought were credible...and this before the LeMond myth was officially sanctified/edited/polished...given some of the bs that has been shovelled by LeMond over the years nothing about the 89 miracle would surprise me...most people have managed to see thru the Lance myth but its funny how the LeMond myth has somehow ascended to the heavens...gee I wonder who his PR firm is...

Cheers

blutto

Actually, I have offered opinions on Indurain. I don't think he was clean of EPO. His association with Conconi, his performances, the time period in which he dominated, a team-wide doping program at Banesto (reference) in the mid-nineties--all of these are all evidence (not absolute proof) of his EPO use. Of course he did EPO, IMO. I'm pretty sure from watching all those Tours that he was on the cutting edge and was one of the first in the peloton to use it to great effect. He and Bugno seem to me to be the two guys who first really went to that next level and started winning stuff they couldn't have otherwise.

There is no evidence against LeMond. Sorry, there just isn't. The two are in no way related.

I wonder why it's always some dude who heard a rumor back in the day from his racing buddies that LeMond must have doped or some unbelievably thin story like that. No direct testimony. In this case an imagined whitewash (wow, quite a conspiracy) of LeMond's history. It's a joke.

Is it possible LeMond did some drugs? Of course. Is it likely? Seems not. Is there one tiny shred of evidence? No. Is there even a glimmer of a rumor about him doing EPO? Nope, never heard one. Ever.

If you have something, out with it. Let's hear the evidence.

 

[Maxiton]

Interesting quote by Hinault....

Interview - Philippe Brunel, special envoy of l'Équipe at Futuroscope

What is your position in the face of statements by Moser, who made use this spring of blood transfusions?

Moser made use of autotransfusion. So he was playing with his own blood. He did no more no less that the Finnish athletes, Lasse Viren and the others. It suffices to take some of ones own blood during the spring when it is rich, hyperoxygenated, and to reinject it when one is fatigued. Is that really doping? Maybe not, except if the blood is placed into a machine to reoxygenate it to the maximum.

Right. That's the quote I mean. And I believe he went on to say something to the effect of "We must do much more research in this area."

 

[hrotha]

To have done this up to 1986 was entirely within the rules. Ergo not doping.

I'd be surprised if there's not a single clause in the rules that defines doping in broad terms so as to cover products and treatments that haven't been introduced yet. Spirit of the law and all that.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Why don't you show me the proof that they didn't work with pro cyclists?

Are you saying that they worked on research on blood doping with Moser in 1984, put all that work on ice and then only decided to come back to the sport with the introduction of EPO.

It seems far fetched.....

Ah, so all you had was 'speculation'.


When the "Donati Report' was uncovered by La Gazzetta dello Sport the outcry in Italy was such that the Italian Parliament launched a Commission of Enquiry. Link 1. Link 2

This showed the widespread doping within all sports in Italy.

Conconi himself was investigated and while 'cleared' because of SOL - the judge declared he was 'morally guilty'.
Ferrari, Cecchini, Santuccione, Grazzi, were all investigated at various times.

By the end of the 90's the Italian authorities had the full history of doping within Italy, nothing was ever said about blood doping within cycling except for the Moser hour record.

(I have only provided a few quick links to help you - but it is easily found by doing a small search)

 

[Escarabajo]

Originally Posted by NashbarShorts

"Don't know if you followed the sport back then, but this was pretty apparent. Each year there were 2-3 real contenders, and the rest were pretenders.
...


EPO closes that gap. In the prior era, nobody "became" a Tour contender. You either were or you weren't. Fignon won the first Tour he rode in, age 22. As did Hinault, age 23. Lemond, riding support for Fignon, went 3rd in his first Tour, age 23. C'mon. This is anecdotal evidence, but the concept of "emerging into a Tour winner at age 27-30"....that is EPO fairytale stuff."


Why would you want to set in stone things that simply aren't true?

I'd suggest doing a little more reading on Le Tour and it's history. Bobet didn't win his first of three until he was in his late 20's, and his early tours went even worse than Armstrong's. At least Big Tex never broke into tears on the big climbs!

Also, I don't see how EPO "closes the gap". Look at the margin of victory and the time splits among the top 10. Things don't look much different from the early 80's to the peak of the juiced era?

My history of the Tour does not go that far. But I can concede that there could be some exceptions. Maybe there is an explanation that I don't know. For example:

- He started late in cycling.
- He crashed or felt sick in initial attempts at the Tour.

These are some natural explanations. Again I don't know the details. As for your comment I only have to say that I stick with what I said. There is no way is this world that I am convinced by your un-scientific comment. You need to stop giving excuses. Natural physiological advantage is noticed early in life. That is a fact. It is a birth gift. So I don't understand why you keep giving excuses. I don't care what Lances does or does not, but for sure I am not going to give excuses over EPO usage to some of my compatriots. If they doped and gained advantage on it, so be it. Example is Botero. I don’t have to defend them.

 

[Escarabajo]

not a relevant one - feel free to replace doping with EPO in my comment and re-read it.

Yeah. Whatever.

Amphetamines = EPO or Blood Doping

 

[Escarabajo]

Reading is sometimes difficult ;D

Bobet finished 4th of his 2nd TDF in 1948 at 23yo after having worn 2 times the yellow jerzey !

He finished 3rd in 1950 winning KOM at 25yo and major mountain stages.

Good. Thanks for the info.

I knew there had to be some explanation.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Good posts by pmcg76, Escarabajo & 131313 too.

To me, the first real well known boiler on EPO that comes to mind is Claudio Chiappucci. To go from being a climbing domestique to accomplishing what he did...

Agree with 131313 on Rominger. While I don't doubt for a second he was on Ferrari fuel, he showed signs of stage racing talent early in his career. Just how much seeing an allergist helped him perform June-August versus his program will never be known, but he wasn't someone who magically got good once EPO showed up. His Vuelta and Giro wins, and his 2nd in the 1993 Tour are impressive no matter what help he got. The 1995 Giro was one of the most difficult GT's in the modern era.

 

[131313]

Last year, I read an old interview with Allan Peiper talking about Chiappucci. It was an early flat stage of the tour, and Peiper was near retirement. It was a gutted, crosswind stage near the end of the day with the field doing 50kph and Peiper hanging on for dear life. Chiappucci rolls up to him on the crosswind side and sticks out his arm to show off his heart rate monitor. It was reading 96bpm.

That's enough to make almost anyone retire or order big box of EPO. Peiper moved on.

 

[andy1234]

Ah, so all you had was 'speculation'.


When the "Donati Report' was uncovered by La Gazzetta dello Sport the outcry in Italy was such that the Italian Parliament launched a Commission of Enquiry. Link 1. Link 2

This showed the widespread doping within all sports in Italy.

Conconi himself was investigated and while 'cleared' because of SOL - the judge declared he was 'morally guilty'.
Ferrari, Cecchini, Santuccione, Grazzi, were all investigated at various times.

By the end of the 90's the Italian authorities had the full history of doping within Italy, nothing was ever said about blood doping within cycling except for the Moser hour record.

(I have only provided a few quick links to help you - but it is easily found by doing a small search)

Ignore the Donati report for a second and consider the following.

There is a form of preparation that is proven to be extremely effective at improving cycling performance, is undetectable and is not outlawed.

Knowing the use of banned products within the pro peleton in the 80's do you not think it possible that some riders may have been using transfusions?

And yes, all I have is speculation.....and common sense.

 

[Race Radio]

Bearing in mind the success Conconi and Ferrari had with Moser, it would be hard to believe that they didn't apply that knowledge to other pro riders in subsequent years.
Indeed, Ferrari is quoted (I think it was in Dan Coyles book)as saying he is responsible for another Tour de france victory in addition to those of Armstrongs.

Assuming that he wasn't involved with Pantani, Indurain, Riis or Ulrich, I would possibly guess at Roche? (Only a guess obviously)

It was Pantani

 

[andy1234]

It was Pantani

How do you know?

 

[Race Radio]

Ignore the Donati report for a second and consider the following.

There is a form of preparation that is proven to be extremely effective at improving cycling performance, is undetectable and is not outlawed.

Knowing the use of banned products within the pro peleton in the 80's do you not think it possible that some riders may have been using transfusions?

And yes, all I have is speculation.....and common sense.

It was not possible to store blood beyond 43 days back then. Even then the RBC would be damaged.

There is no rumor, evidence, or hint. The watts did not go up and climbing times did not drop.

Common sense would say your speculation is not correct.

 

[andy1234]

It was not possible to store blood beyond 43 days back then. Even then the RBC would be damaged.

There is no rumor, evidence, or hint. The watts did not go up and climbing times did not drop.

Common sense would say your speculation is not correct.

So there was no benefit to Moser or the US LA Olympic team?

 

[Le breton]

How do you know?

about Pantani and Ferrari.

Maybe he surmises it from the fact that LA called Ferrari to get his opinion on how much of a threat Pantani could be when he took off far from the finish on that stage that ended in Morzine ( after .... Colombière, Joux Plane). Must have been in 2002 I guess.

 

[boardhanger]

Didn't Paul Kimmage state in his book that riders hung upside down sometimes like bats to keep the blood flowing before it clotted. Which was a side effect of early epo abuse?? He was a pro '86 - '89. So thats a good time frame of early users or should that be abusers

 

[pmcg76]

Didn't Paul Kimmage state in his book that riders hung upside down sometimes like bats to keep the blood flowing before it clotted. Which was a side effect of early epo abuse?? He was a pro '86 - '89. So thats a good time frame of early users or should that be abusers

Kimmage was talking about the 90s in that particular chapter, cannot remember the chapter name but it was not in the original 1990 version but was in the updated 98 version, he talks about the Donati report in the same chapter which happened during the 90s.

 

[pmcg76]

Ok, there is a one in a hundred chance that Lemond was not using cortisone and steroids, and amphetamines in races where there we no controls.

One in a hundred.

I still think he's an amazing guy, his tours in the 80's were what got me into cycling and I love his fighting against Armstrong.

But I'm extremely confident he was using.

Are all really top athletes usually not the one in a hundred type, well if we took LeMond & Mottet together, that would be 2 in about ten.

Then we take Eric Caritoux who won the 1984 Vuelta cleanly and Peter Winnen who finished in the Top 5 in his first Tour riding clean.

Andy Hampsten always claimed he was squeaky clean but I wouldnt rely on that but if he was, then add another Giro to the list of clean victories.

Jesper Skibby won a stage of the Giro cleanly in 89 and somehow managed to finish 3rd in a 80km TT in the 87 Tour only 53 seconds behind Roche, who was second, Charly Mottet.

Gilles Delion won the 1990 Tour of Lombardy without taking anything apparently.

 

[boardhanger]

Kimmage was talking about the 90s in that particular chapter, cannot remember the chapter name but it was not in the original 1990 version but was in the updated 98 version, he talks about the Donati report in the same chapter which happened during the 90s.

It was the updated version I read alright. But the sunglasses look of the 80's did die out at the end of that decade indicating no more need to hide massive pupils while on 'em Belguim speedballs. Something musta pushed them balls out around then???

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Ignore the Donati report for a second and consider the following.

There is a form of preparation that is proven to be extremely effective at improving cycling performance, is undetectable and is not outlawed.

Knowing the use of banned products within the pro peleton in the 80's do you not think it possible that some riders may have been using transfusions?

And yes, all I have is speculation.....and common sense.

Ok - so you would like me to ignore the investigations that showed the only blood doping in cycling in Italy was Moser, to keep alive your "speculation & common sense" that there was blood doping going on?


I will admit, for a moment I was going to put up with your 'consideration' - but, no - why should I?

If you have something - I will give it the time, I love new information.

If not Polish starts plenty of frivolous threads to debate nonsensical issues on.