Fix or remove TTT

[Franklin]

But if it was unfair, then should the results be neutralized when riders lose "unfair" time again in the future? Because that is what you whiners are calling for. My God, you are a real piece of work.

Trust me, you won't find many people saying the 99 etappe through the gois was reasonable.

It's not me who is going against the grain here.

But yes, I'm a meanie who hates cycling. I would like to see idiotic courses which are undeniably unnecesarily dangerous gone out of GT's. Idiots like Fignon and others agree with me. Cycling should be where danger is around the corner so the real cycle lovers can enjoy the pile ups and excitement. We idiots are against this because we actually detest racing. The racers safety? PSHAW! Slaves of the road *takes out the whip*.

 

[elapid]

IMy point is that a major contender lost time on a non-mtn-or-ITT stage, just like yesterday. You whiners are calling for either the elimination of these challenges or completely crazy rules regarding limiting time loss.

Firstly, major contenders in weaker teams lost time and this wasn't because of the GC contenders on those teams. As an example, Evans had to slow down in the TTT to allow the remainder of his team to catch him because the time is taken from the fifth rider, not the first. This is a disadvantage for the likes of Evans who have a weaker team than Astana, SaxoBank and Columbia. No one on this forum will have a problem with GC contenders losing time on an ITT or mountain stage or even missing a break on a flat stage because their talent or tactical skills were not as good as the rider beating them. But the TTT punishes those on a weak team, even if the individual rider is strong.

Secondly, the "completely crazy rules" were actually instituted by ASO in the 2004 and 2005 TdF TTTs. These rules were introduced for a reason, and it ain't so crazy.

 

[Blakeslee]

As a few people have already pointed out, the time spent scouting the course and practicing as a team certainly helped the teams who did well yesterday, but ultimately it was the individual strength of the riders that gave them the decisive time gaps over the weaker teams. Teams like Astana (Armstrong, Leipheimer, Kloden, Contador) and Garmin (Wiggins, Millar, Vande Velde, Zabriske) are loaded with some of the sports best time trialists. Weaker teams like Silence Lotto, Cervelo, and Rabobank had no shot against the top teams even if they had spent extensive time preparing for the stage.

I don't think it is fair to accuse riders like Evans of being bad riders do to the performance of their teams yesterday. They certainly could have spent more time preparing for the stage, but ultimately they just did not have the talent and depth of the strong teams like Astana and Garmin.

 

[TrapperJohn]

Keep the TTT - it's beautiful to watch. This is a spectator sport, after all. It's a moment of stark contrast to the chaotic jumble of the peloton.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

If they are going to include it, they should take the time of the slowest member of the team. That would force teams to slow down to prevent slower riders from being dropped. Think how much slower Astana would have been if they had to wait for the riders they dropped.

 

[Franklin]

If they are going to include it, they should take the time of the slowest member of the team. That would force teams to slow down to prevent slower riders from being dropped. Think how much slower Astana would have been if they had to wait for the riders they dropped.

I think that would only work when it's the prologue. Otherwise teams that loose members in the first stages would be unballanced even more. Also flats would become to important I think.

 

[Escarabajo]

If they are going to include it, they should take the time of the slowest member of the team. That would force teams to slow down to prevent slower riders from being dropped. Think how much slower Astana would have been if they had to wait for the riders they dropped.

I am sure Astana would not have taken Rast to the Tour. Maybe Horner would have been riding if that was the case.

I think it would make things worse, although it would be really fun to watch.

 

[mr. tibbs]

Last time I checked, basketball was a "team sport" requiring 5 "team members" working together for the win. "Oh wait" . . . so is the TTT.

Sorry to dig this up, just wanted to point out that I misunderstood the post I was responding to. In my defense, you never mentioned a team, you just named Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan, two exceptionally talented individuals.

Sorry again for digging this up. And I'm not trying to belittle or anything, just saying that I misunderstood what you were getting at.

And you're right about basketball; it DOES require a strong team to win the top prizes in the sport. The anti-TTT crowd here is just suggesting that maybe cycling shouldn't and maybe a rider should be able to win the Tour without being penalized for lacking the horsepower of teams like Astana, Garmin, Columbia, Saxo, Liquigas, etc.

That's all. Sorry if the tone of my post way back was abrasive--I didn't mean for it to be.

 

[Archibald]

the yellow jersey is awarded to an individual rider - it's not like basketball with a winning team and an mvp medal.
there is no place in this event to have a 'team' stage...

 

[SlantParallelogram]

the yellow jersey is awarded to an individual rider - it's not like basketball with a winning team and an mvp medal.
there is no place in this event to have a 'team' stage...

Well there is a Team competition and a team classification. The yellow jersey / overall win isn't the only competition going on in the race.

All this means is that if your team is weak, you have to take some more risks in the mountain stages. It's not like riders don't have chances to get the time back in other parts of the race.

 

[Archibald]

Well there is a Team competition and a team classification. The yellow jersey / overall win isn't the only competition going on in the race.

i realise this, but look at it as more like F1 where the constructors championship is second fiddle to the main event.
for the TdF its further back than second, third or fourth fiddle after the green, polka and white jerseys...
it's even an afterthought to the stage winners as well, so not really worthy of a stage of its own otherwise you could have stages for just the kiddies, or stages that are 500m sprints or a 10km "straight up the mountain" stages...

 

[Titaniumtim]

Some TTT rules

I have always thought a good TTT system would be along this line.
You take the time of the fith rider acoss the line.
Next take the time difference from each team time and the fastest team.
Divide that by the number of riders from the group the team time was given always rounding up.
Each rider in the team time group gets that time.
Any rider finishing after the team group gets his time minus the group time plus the divided time.

Here are some example useing the stage 4 TTT.

01 Astana 0:46:29
02 Garmin - Slipstream 0:00:18
03 Team Saxo Bank 0:00:40
04 Liquigas 0:00:58
05 Team Columbia-HTC 0:00:59
06 Team Katusha 0:01:23
07 Caisse d'Epargne 0:01:29
08 Cervelo Test Team 0:01:38
09 AG2R-La Mondiale 0:01:49
10 Euskaltel - Euskadi 0:02:10
11 Rabobank 0:02:21
12 Quick Step 0:02:26
13 Silence - Lotto 0:02:36
14 Francaise Des Jeux 0:02:46
15 Team Milram 0:02:49
16 Cofidis Le Credit en Ligne 0:02:59
17 Lampre - N.G.C 0:03:25
18 Agritubel 0:04:18
19 BBox Bouygues Telecom 0:04:42
20 Skil-Shimano 0:05:23


86 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence - Lotto 0:02:35
87 Johan Van Summeren (Bel) Silence - Lotto
88 Greg Van Avermaet (Bel) Silence - Lotto 0:02:35
89 Sebastian Lang (Ger) Silence - Lotto
90 Mickael Delage (Fra) Silence - Lotto
91 Matthew Lloyd (Aus) Silence - Lotto
92 Charles Wegelius (GBr) Silence - Lotto
173 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Silence - Lotto 0:07:04
174 Staf Scheirlinckx (Bel) Silence - Lotto

158 Thierry Huppond (Fra) Skil-Shimano 0:05:23
159 Koen de Kort (Ned) Skil-Shimano
160 Simon Geschke (Ger) Skil-Shimano
161 Jonathan Hivert (Fra) Skil-Shimano
162 Fumiyuki Beppu (Jpn) Skil-Shimano
163 Cyril Lemoine (Fra) Skil-Shimano
178 Albert Timmer (Ned) Skil-Shimano 0:09:07

Example 1.

Astana had a time of 0:46:29 and Silence - Lotto 0:49:04 for a time of +2:35.
The timed group had seven riders. 2:35/7 = 23 seconds.
Evans, Van Summeren, Van Avermaet, Lang, Delage, Lloyd and Wegelius all get 23 seconds on their GC time.
Van Den Broeck and Scheirlinckx finished 0:53:33 or +7:04
Van Den Broeck and Scheirlinckx. 7:04-2:35 = 4:29 after their team.
So they will get the 4:29+.23 for a total of 4:52 to their GC time.

Example 2.

Team Skil-Shimano was +5:23 on Astana.
The Timed group had six riders. 5:23/6 = 54 seconds.
Huppond, de Kort, Geschke, Hivert, Beppu and Lemoine all get 54 seconds added to their GC time.
Timmer finished at +9:07. 9:07-5:23 = 3:44.
Timmer will get 3:44+54 = 4:38 added to his GC Time.

You could also add in time bonuses of 1:00/0:40/0:20 for 1st,2nd and 3rd place as well.
I think this could limit damages as well as keep teams together.
I like the TTT but do feel time losses need to be minimalized.

Just my thoughts on it.

 

[ridelikethewind]

Wouldn't this thread have worked just as well: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=1911[/QUOTE



Looks like a differnet thread to me. Original thread was a post to discuss how crap the TTT course was. This thread is to discuss how Crap the TTT is.


I think that the TTT is crap. It is the most boring stage to watch and has a massive effect on the GC and shape of the race. The post 2005 tours with no TTTs (and the not to be mentioned) were much more open, and incident filled. e.g. Perreiro turned around a 33 minute deficit, came second and then won it. Landis turing round a 27 minute deficit to win the tour and then lost it. All without a TTT.

Consign it to Room 101 please.

 

[BroDeal]

I have always thought a good TTT system would be along this line.
You take the time of the fith rider acoss the line.
Next take the time difference from each team time and the fastest team.
Divide that by the number of riders from the group the team time was given always rounding up.
Each rider in the team time group gets that time.
Any rider finishing after the team group gets his time minus the group time plus the divided time.

Thirty meters from the line every team with more than five riders would have the rest of its riders drop off, effectively leaving the calculation (time diff) / 5 for all the GC contenders.

 

[Titaniumtim]

If a team has seven riders coming to the line at +2:00 the riders time would be 18 seconds.
If only five come across at +2:00 the riders times would be 24 seconds.
I do not see why they would want to drop two rides thirty meters from the line and increase their time by six seconds.
It would be more beneficial to finish more riders together than less as each person dropped increases your time.
This spreads the entire time among all the riders reducing the large multi minute losses like they normally do.

In my examples Silence - Lotto time group would have only lost 23 seconds instead of 2:35 and the last place Skil-Shimano group 54 seconds instead of 5:23. This would have kept the race a lot closer and probably made for a better stage 7 today.

Another thing would be the TTT time only goes to the total team time not the individual rider times. This would keep it from having any bearing on the GC at all.

 

[BroDeal]

If a team has seven riders coming to the line at +2:00 the riders time would be 18 seconds.
If only five come across at +2:00 the riders times would be 24 seconds.
I do not see why they would want to drop two rides thirty meters from the line and increase their time by six seconds.
It would be more beneficial to finish more riders together than less as each person dropped increases your time.
This spreads the entire time among all the riders reducing the large multi minute losses like they normally do.

In my examples Silence - Lotto time group would have only lost 23 seconds instead of 2:35 and the last place Skil-Shimano group 54 seconds instead of 5:23. This would have kept the race a lot closer and probably made for a better stage 7 today.

Another thing would be the TTT time only goes to the total team time not the individual rider times. This would keep it from having any bearing on the GC at all.

I misread.

 

[Cobber]

How about keeping the TTT as is (ie racing for real time) but capping time loss at 1 minute. Still a good amount of time for the GC riders to race for (along with stage win glory), but doesn't eliminate good riders on not-so-good teams from GC contention!

 

[fatandfast]

Pro wrestler

Saddle sniffer,tea bag,fanboy what sport are you watching.The idea to lower the bar(shorten the race) is BS.These guys don't show up at half the races they should because of "special preparation" for the tour. Evans and Menchov should be given credit for riding the Giro and busting it the whole time and giving us the show that this race is lacking so far.We can all feel lucky that the rain stayed away on the TTT or everybody including the King of Texas would have been on the deck.They need to put some time bonus primes out on the course if these guys are going to sit in a pack like old women.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Saddle sniffer,tea bag,fanboy what sport are you watching.The idea to lower the bar(shorten the race) is BS.These guys don't show up at half the races they should because of "special preparation" for the tour. Evans and Menchov should be given credit for riding the Giro and busting it the whole time and giving us the show that this race is lacking so far.We can all feel lucky that the rain stayed away on the TTT or everybody including the King of Texas would have been on the deck.They need to put some time bonus primes out on the course if these guys are going to sit in a pack like old women.

Evans didn't ride the giro. Maybe the ttt should be capped at a maximum 20km but you their is no cap on losses. A ttt like the giro's would be more fair. It would keep the tour more open and not wreck so many gc riders chances. A less dangerous course would also be appreciated. Prudhomme should be hanged for some of the crappy stages he has put together.