Flandis and the testosterone levels

[Ninety5rpm]

All these revelations are great, but it has caused me to remember the one thing about the Flandis story I still don't get...

He admits to doping/cheating in general, but still (so far as I know) rejects the high testosterone levels that were found in his system and caused all his troubles, claiming he didn't take it.

What does everyone think about Flandis' high testosterone levels?
What is the best explanation for it?

 

[131313]

The simplest explanations are normally the correct ones. Not always, but normally. He admits to the T, and he admits to perjury. You can go to jail for that, and he doesn't want to go to jail. I don't think the Amish (or Mennonites or whatever) do well in jail.

There are plenty of other possibilities,transfused tainted blood being one. Some have claimed this couldn't be the case given the levels, but I think they discount the efficacy of the blood freezing and washing compounds being used. I think that one is totally possible. But it I were a betting man, I'd go with the first one.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

All these revelations are great, but it has caused me to remember the one thing about the Flandis story I still don't get...

He admits to doping/cheating in general, but still (so far as I know) rejects the high testosterone levels that were found in his system and caused all his troubles, claiming he didn't take it.

What does everyone think about Flandis' high testosterone levels?
What is the best explanation for it?

IS the second option - he had testosterone in his system, but didn't knowingly take it?
Because even though he is adamant he knew what he was doing he does admit taking test in the leadup to the Tour, so i reckon it arrived through doing a blood transfusion.

I did use testosterone leading-up to the Tour, and I know what the clearance rate is, and I know more now about how the carbon-isotope test works and how long the delta change in the carbon isotope should last and how it should degrade over time and I can’t match it up with a blood transfusion. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Merckx index]

The transfusion theory is pretty unlikely. Floyd is right about that, though his reference to the delta ratio misses the point, since that is not well correlated with the actual amount of synthetic testosterone one takes.

The key number is the T/E ratio, and IIRC, Floyd’s was pretty high (10-20), which testosterone in a blood transfusion is very unlikely to account for. A typical transfusion would be about 5% of the blood volume, so that would imply that when he took the original testosterone, he had enough of it in his system to result in a T/E ratio of 200-400/1. I doubt very much that a rider mindful of being tested would take that much testosterone. If you look at the blood doping information that has come out, riders don’t take huge amounts of testosterone in that program. Moreover, Floyd’s quoted comments imply that he transfused several days or more before the positive test, which would imply an even higher initial level of testosterone.

This assumes he used whole blood. If he used isolated cells, there would be far less testosterone present, most of it being in the plasma. He might have injected the plasma, too—remember, that was the theory used to explain Contador’s positive—but again, the volume would be a fairly small fraction of the total blood volume.

I’ve never totally dismissed the possibility of a false positive, as some of his delta values were not as high as they should have been. OTOH, when USADA prepared for CAS, they obtained other samples from Floyd during that Tour, and some of the metabolites in those samples also had high T/E values. So the best explanation is that he was using T-patches regularly, and as 131313 says, he lied to avoid contradicting his earlier assertions. Best explanation, but still not one I’m 100% confident of.

 

[fatsprintking]

.

There are plenty of other possibilities,transfused tainted blood being one. Some have claimed this couldn't be the case given the levels, but I think they discount the efficacy of the blood freezing and washing compounds being used. I think that one is totally possible.

This is what I thnk. He had a transfusion the night before the stage that was tainted.

His turnaround from one stage to the next was what really gives the game away. Dropped one day and putting out about 250 watts and then riding up 4mountains at 370-80 watts I reckon points to blood doping.

 

[BroDeal]

This is what I thnk. He had a transfusion the night before the stage that was tainted.

His turnaround from one stage to the next was what really gives the game away. Dropped one day and putting out about 250 watts and then riding up 4mountains at 370-80 watts I reckon points to blood doping.

A transfusion does not explain the testosterone positives in his B samples from other stages. He was using test and wants to avoid perjury issues or he was using a product (like HGH) that was tainted with testosterone.

His poor performance on stage 16 was due to dehydration.

It is most likely the perjury issue, but I will say that I find it very convenient that while the UCI is feuding with the ASO, a contender who has a bad relationship with the UCI tests positive for a substance that was easy to use without going over the 4:1 limit. McQuaid then calls Landis and, almost like he is trying to assuage a guilty conscience, pleads with Landis to minimize the damage to himself by not fighting the charges. Crazy, I know. The following year, after a failed buyout attempt, the ASO accuses the UCI of trying to lower the purchase price of the ASO by engineering the Rasmussen affair. The ASO is so suspicious that they take testing out of the hands of the UCI and give it to the AFLD for 2008. I would not put anything past the UCI.

 

[Epicycle]

I doubt perjury is an issue because he denied any doping at his hearing and nobody is going to jail for lying to an antidoping panel anyway.

I think the testosterone result is probably legit because it was tested in different ways and the confirmation tests were done on two different machines. I know the decision in his USADA hearing discarded the T:E result but that was just a technicality in my opinion, looking at that data it was pretty obvious his ratio was high. His total testosterone levels came out at one point too and those rose during the Tour, although I'm not sure how much that means for urine tests. I don't fully reject the possibility that the lab screwed up royally but it seems improbable.

When all the samples were fully tested, there were multiple ones that showed evidence of synthetic testosterone, and he's said himself that they didn't match with the transfusions. They did match with the hardest days of the Tour except for the fact that his final stage sample tested positive too.

Maybe it was added to his rubdown by a soigneur who assumed that was the program. Or he's lying because of the Fairness Fund. Obviously the Fairness Fund becoming a legal problem has always been in the back of his mind, for good reason.

There's also the Ben Johnson possibility...that not admitting to doing anything before that stage to Morzine helps him hold on to the accomplishment. I saw a program on East German doping recently where a former East German swimmer met with an American woman she beat in the Olympics. The East German woman couldn't admit that doping significantly helped her, she couldn't give up that memory of accomplishment.

 

[joe_papp]

IS the second option - he had testosterone in his system, but didn't knowingly take it?
Because even though he is adamant he knew what he was doing he does admit taking test in the leadup to the Tour, so i reckon it arrived through doing a blood transfusion.

Given that I tested positive for testosterone w/o knowingly taking it and yet I admitted to all kinds of other doping, I have to continue to believe Floyd when he says he didn't knowingly use it at that point either. And I hope he'll continue to point to my situation for as long as doing so is necessary...

 

[straydog]

Am I the only person who heard that he had fallen asleep with his test patch on his sac the night before his epic break, and as a result had left it on too long?

Seriously? Has no one else heard this before?

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Am I the only person who heard that he had fallen asleep with his test patch on his sac the night before his epic break, and as a result had left it on too long?

Seriously? Has no one else heard this before?

Yeah, I heard that theory, very early on. But I thought that was pure speculation.

 

[DirtyWorks]

So the best explanation is that he was using T-patches regularly, and as 131313 says, he lied to avoid contradicting his earlier assertions. Best explanation, but still not one I’m 100% confident of.

I agree with Merckx Index, could be a false positive too.

I don't know nor do I fully understand the intricacies of the test he failed. I am assuming the test returns a range of values, not a true/false test.

We know that WADA certified labs have varying test accuracy. Unfortunately the dopers seize this as a defense, so it doesn't really get the importance/consideration it deserves.

 

[straydog]

Yeah, I heard that theory, very early on. But I thought that was pure speculation.

hmmm...I "heard" it wasn't speculation.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Floyd used test, said he did. He also says that because of when he used it, it shouldn't have been in that sample. Why didn't the poll have the option he claims?

 

[usedtobefast]

Yeah, I heard that theory, very early on. But I thought that was pure speculation.

he was being quoted for saying something like that. just bs.