Footon and Kestrel - discuss

[laziali]

I'm personally waiting to hear the reasoning behind your opinion that Kestrel is "not of a suitable standard for the Pro-Tour". This should be good folks.

1. Designed by people who think yellow trousers, never holding a passport and smothering food in sauce (they call it "ketchup") are good ideas.
2. Triathlete bike.
3. Laughed at by roadies in the 80s and 90s.
4. Silly, silly seat-tube - I mean, really?
5. About as likely to succeed as the 'soft-ride' (ahem) bike.
6. Uninspired name - the kestrel is arguably the lamest bird of prey.


...



7. Watching our US friends get uptight is such good sport.

 

[barn yard]

What a load of crap. There is little difference between most carbon frames. Most are manufactured by the same handful of asian manufacturers.

that is like saying that sorbent toilet paper is the same as home brand, because they are made in the same factory. now, they might make identical items for home brand, tomato sauce for example, it is just a different package. but you dont see home brand caviar or wagyu beef do you. i hope you see where this is going.

BUT ITS ALL THE SAME TOILET PAPER FROM THE SAME FACTORY AND GOD BLESS AMERICAN ENGINEERING AND TRIATHLONS!

 

[BroDeal]

that is like saying that sorbent toilet paper is the same as home brand, because they are made in the same factory. now, they might make identical items for home brand, tomato sauce for example, it is just a different package. but you dont see home brand caviar or wagyu beef do you. i hope you see where this is going.

Carbon frames are hardly Wagyu beef. These days they are largely a commodity. It is not like a factory that produces frames for ten different bike companies uses proprietary technology from each of the ten companies. In fact your best bet from a technology perspective would probably be to let the engineers at the OEM do the design.

What is the difference between a Specialized, a Scott, a Felt, and a Kestrel?

 

[barn yard]

What is the difference between a Specialized, a Scott, a Felt, and a Kestrel?

clearly nothing as they are all made in asia and every asian product is identical in all aspects

 

[laziali]

What a load of crap. There is little difference between most carbon frames. Most are manufactured by the same handful of asian manufacturers. The companies are not really bike manufacturers anymore.

Normally I agree with you Bro, but not on this occasion. Some carbon frames are still assembled in Europe, such as those in Cambiasso. I seriously doubt anyone involved in bike manufacturing would claim that Ernesto is "not really a bike manufacturer anymore".

 

[TRDean]

1. Designed by people who think yellow trousers, never holding a passport and smothering food in sauce (they call it "ketchup") are good ideas.
2. Triathlete bike.
3. Laughed at by roadies in the 80s and 90s.
4. Silly, silly seat-tube - I mean, really?
5. About as likely to succeed as the 'soft-ride' (ahem) bike.
6. Uninspired name - the kestrel is arguably the lamest bird of prey.


...



7. Watching our US friends get uptight is such good sport.

Your kind of a *** eh? Laughed at?? Silly?? Likely to succeed?? Your arguments are as lame as you...uninspired name?? Your list is nothing other than an uninspired attempt to be cute...epic fail!

 

[progressor]

Brilliant .

 

[Steampunk]

Even with that very weak kit, I'm having a tough time believing that a Pro Tour team would disadvantage its riders (and sponsorship hopes) with an inferior ride...

 

[Angliru]

1. Designed by people who think yellow trousers, never holding a passport and smothering food in sauce (they call it "ketchup") are good ideas.
2. Triathlete bike.
3. Laughed at by roadies in the 80s and 90s.
4. Silly, silly seat-tube - I mean, really?
5. About as likely to succeed as the 'soft-ride' (ahem) bike.
6. Uninspired name - the kestrel is arguably the lamest bird of prey.


...



7. Watching our US friends get uptight is such good sport.

You're joking right? Pulling our leg? I really expected something with actual reasoning and facts.

 

[BroDeal]

Normally I agree with you Bro, but not on this occasion. Some carbon frames are still assembled in Europe, such as those in Cambiasso. I seriously doubt anyone involved in bike manufacturing would claim that Ernesto is "not really a bike manufacturer anymore".

That is why I said *most* are made in Asia. Even the ones that are not made in Asia have no better quality than the ones made in Asia. I give props to the companies that do their own manufacturing. I would much rather spend my money on a frame that was actually made by the company that has its name on the downtube, but reality is that the quality is no different than a frame from a company that consists of a bunch of white collar workers in an office whose chief design decision is what cool paint job to slap on their frames that are made in Taiwan.

 

[carbon101]

1. Designed by people who think yellow trousers, never holding a passport and smothering food in sauce (they call it "ketchup") are good ideas.
2. Triathlete bike.
3. Laughed at by roadies in the 80s and 90s.
4. Silly, silly seat-tube - I mean, really?
5. About as likely to succeed as the 'soft-ride' (ahem) bike.
6. Uninspired name - the kestrel is arguably the lamest bird of prey.
7. Watching our US friends get uptight is such good sport.

Admitting you are a troll, still makes you a troll. Apparently you like getting a rise out of people.

I was involved in the design of the bike in question, and your Beavis and Butthead statements lack any substance or hint of knowledge. Most of the rebuttals are accurate: companies like Inda-Nano, Martec, Giant make most of the world's carbon bicycle frames, forks, and bars. Even some Colnagos. However, frame knowledge, aerodynamic knowledge, and layup schedules are gained through experience and engineering insight, so are mostly controlled by the actual bike company. The Asian companies have developed their manufacturing techniques to a high standard, both for mass production and to improve the technology.

Your dumb points:
1. The Ketchup Sauce forum is here.
2. Yeah, so is the Specialized Shiv, the Trek Equinox, the Cervelo P3/P4...your point was? You think these companies make money with pro cycling? They GIVE the teams these frames. They SELL them to triathletes and amateur cyclists.
3. Like who, you? Somebody laughed at you back then too. Kestrel was making carbon bikes back then that were works of art and inspired jealousy.
4. The seattube shrouds the rear wheel and provides support to the top tube. The heritage of the bike begins with the 500-series (those triathletes again), then to the KM40 and Airfoil Pro. Reducing the seatpost's visual mass makes it look, on first glance, like a relative of those bikes. Really.
5. Softride sold bunches of bikes to triathletes too - people dropping real money. "Likely to succeed" in your book seems to imply that you have to see them on every street corner, like a Trek.
6. "The American Kestrel is the only North American falcon to habitually hover with rapid wing beats, keeping its head motionless while scanning the ground for prey. The American Kestrel occasionally robs others of the same species." That sounds totally awesome.
7. You're not really making a good showing from whatever homo-erectus backwater you call home.

 

[TRDean]

Admitting you are a troll, still makes you a troll. Apparently you like getting a rise out of people.

I was involved in the design of the bike in question, and your Beavis and Butthead statements lack any substance or hint of knowledge. Most of the rebuttals are accurate: companies like Inda-Nano, Martec, Giant make most of the world's carbon bicycle frames, forks, and bars. Even some Colnagos. However, frame knowledge, aerodynamic knowledge, and layup schedules are gained through experience and engineering insight, so are mostly controlled by the actual bike company. The Asian companies have developed their manufacturing techniques to a high standard, both for mass production and to improve the technology.

Your dumb points:
1. The Ketchup Sauce forum is here.
2. Yeah, so is the Specialized Shiv, the Trek Equinox, the Cervelo P3/P4...your point was? You think these companies make money with pro cycling? They GIVE the teams these frames. They SELL them to triathletes and amateur cyclists.
3. Like who, you? Somebody laughed at you back then too. Kestrel was making carbon bikes back then that were works of art and inspired jealousy.
4. The seattube shrouds the rear wheel and provides support to the top tube. The heritage of the bike begins with the SC-series (those triathletes again), then to the KM40 and Airfoil Pro. Reducing the seatpost's visual mass makes it look, on first glance, like a relative of those bikes. Really.
5. Softride sold bunches of bikes to triathletes too - people dropping real money. "Likely to succeed" in your book seems to imply that you have to see them on every street corner, like a Trek.
6. "The American Kestrel is the only North American falcon to habitually hover with rapid wing beats, keeping its head motionless while scanning the ground for prey. The American Kestrel occasionally robs others of the same species." That sounds totally awesome.

Stinkin awsome!! Post of the week for me...

 

[BroDeal]

I think an interesting question is what happened to Kestrel. How did they mess up? At one point they were the premier triathalon bike brand--or at least the one that was most lusted after. Go to a tri these days and it seems like half the bikes are Cervelos.

 

[TRDean]

I think an interesting question is what happened to Kestrel. How did they mess up? At one point they were the premier triathalon bike brand--or at least the one that was most lusted after. Go to a tri these days and it seems like half the bikes are Cervelos.

Marketing plain and simple...we humans are really fickle!!!

 

[carbon101]

An interesting statistic: If the Cervelo P3 was its own bike company, it would still win the Ironman WC bike count. For a variety of reasons, triathletes seem to think that Cervelo bikes with Zipp wheels are the benchmark.

 

[BroDeal]

An interesting statistic: If the Cervelo P3 was its own bike company, it would still win the Ironman WC bike count. For a variety of reasons, triathletes seem to think that Cervelo bikes with Zipp wheels are the benchmark.

That is pretty interesting. You would think that with the yuppie status seekers who make up the bulk of triathletes that there would be a strong incentive to purchase something different than what everyone else owns, and this would limit Cervelo in much the same way that Trek's over saturation of the U.S. market produced a backlash amongst serious U.S. cyclists. Of course triathletes in general are people who believe that you can purchase speed...

The obvious solution for Kestrel is to thrown in a lifetime supply of compression socks with every bike.

 

[karlboss]

Cervelo and Zipp tell you, if you buy our product you wil go x seconds faster, and have pretty tables comparing to other products.

 

[laziali]

Stinkin awsome!! Post of the week for me...

He, he, he - you angry, irony-deficient Americans just can't resist Mission accomplished.

Now go back to your worship of Dan Brown and Lance Armstrong.

 

[Greyhound Velo]

That is pretty interesting. You would think that with the yuppie status seekers who make up the bulk of triathletes that there would be a strong incentive to purchase something different than what everyone else owns...

On the contrary! I've been working at one of the "premier" tri oriented shops in the US and the #1 Cervelo dealer in the country (arguably the world), and if I've learned anything about triathletes, it's that whatever everyone else is riding is what they want. It's the same mindset as those same yuppies all owning BMW's and Land Rovers, gotta look the part if you want to be accepted into the club! I don't know if it has something to do with being the red headed step children of cycling or not, but triathletes definitely like to stick to the party line, compression socks being a perfect example.

 

[sharad]

Just wondering who you are

Since I'm the one who designed the 4000, I'm enjoying the thread on the bike and Kestrel. First, the 4000 is more than worthy of being in any race, road or tri. Second, the aero #'s stacked up against our competitors are very compelling.

I'm here to answer any questions you may have and appreciate the interest in Kestrel

Admitting you are a troll, still makes you a troll. Apparently you like getting a rise out of people.

I was involved in the design of the bike in question, and your Beavis and Butthead statements lack any substance or hint of knowledge. Most of the rebuttals are accurate: companies like Inda-Nano, Martec, Giant make most of the world's carbon bicycle frames, forks, and bars. Even some Colnagos. However, frame knowledge, aerodynamic knowledge, and layup schedules are gained through experience and engineering insight, so are mostly controlled by the actual bike company. The Asian companies have developed their manufacturing techniques to a high standard, both for mass production and to improve the technology.

Your dumb points:
1. The Ketchup Sauce forum is here.
2. Yeah, so is the Specialized Shiv, the Trek Equinox, the Cervelo P3/P4...your point was? You think these companies make money with pro cycling? They GIVE the teams these frames. They SELL them to triathletes and amateur cyclists.
3. Like who, you? Somebody laughed at you back then too. Kestrel was making carbon bikes back then that were works of art and inspired jealousy.
4. The seattube shrouds the rear wheel and provides support to the top tube. The heritage of the bike begins with the 500-series (those triathletes again), then to the KM40 and Airfoil Pro. Reducing the seatpost's visual mass makes it look, on first glance, like a relative of those bikes. Really.
5. Softride sold bunches of bikes to triathletes too - people dropping real money. "Likely to succeed" in your book seems to imply that you have to see them on every street corner, like a Trek.
6. "The American Kestrel is the only North American falcon to habitually hover with rapid wing beats, keeping its head motionless while scanning the ground for prey. The American Kestrel occasionally robs others of the same species." That sounds totally awesome.
7. You're not really making a good showing from whatever homo-erectus backwater you call home.

 

[BroDeal]

On the contrary! I've been working at one of the "premier" tri oriented shops in the US and the #1 Cervelo dealer in the country (arguably the world), and if I've learned anything about triathletes, it's that whatever everyone else is riding is what they want. It's the same mindset as those same yuppies all owning BMW's and Land Rovers, gotta look the part if you want to be accepted into the club! I don't know if it has something to do with being the red headed step children of cycling or not, but triathletes definitely like to stick to the party line, compression socks being a perfect example.

That makes sense. If triathletes buy high end bikes not as a luxury item where they want to show off their taste or separate themselves from the rabble or prove that they are a connoisseur but as an entry ticket to group identity then it will be difficult for another company to supplant Cervelo. A good question would be how did Cervelo reach that position?

At Ironman St. George a couple of weeks ago there were more Cervelos than you can shake a stick at. I had to be on constant watch to make sure the pod people did not assimilate me. It was really pathetic, like doing a century in a city where all the bike shops are Trek shops.

 

[buckwheat]

That makes sense. If triathletes buy high end bikes not as a luxury item where they want to show off their taste or separate themselves from the rabble or prove that they are a connoisseur but as an entry ticket to group identity then it will be difficult for another company to supplant Cervelo. A good question would be how did Cervelo reach that position?

At Ironman St. George a couple of weeks ago there were more Cervelos than you can shake a stick at. I had to be on constant watch to make sure the pod people did not assimilate me. It was really pathetic, like doing a century in a city where all the bike shops are Trek shops.

As long as you're not sleepy. Take an Adderall or Provigil.

 

[buckwheat]

That makes sense. If triathletes buy high end bikes not as a luxury item where they want to show off their taste or separate themselves from the rabble or prove that they are a connoisseur but as an entry ticket to group identity then it will be difficult for another company to supplant Cervelo. A good question would be how did Cervelo reach that position?

At Ironman St. George a couple of weeks ago there were more Cervelos than you can shake a stick at. I had to be on constant watch to make sure the pod people did not assimilate me. It was really pathetic, like doing a century in a city where all the bike shops are Trek shops.

As long as you're not sleepy. Take an Adderall or Provigil.

 

[bc_hills]

On the contrary! I've been working at one of the "premier" tri oriented shops in the US and the #1 Cervelo dealer in the country (arguably the world), and if I've learned anything about triathletes, it's that whatever everyone else is riding is what they want. It's the same mindset as those same yuppies all owning BMW's and Land Rovers, gotta look the part if you want to be accepted into the club! I don't know if it has something to do with being the red headed step children of cycling or not, but triathletes definitely like to stick to the party line, compression socks being a perfect example.

Ironic that you earn a wage selling bikes to triathletes and then slam them online. Nice.

I'm not a triathlete and I never will be (run after a hard ride? yeah right), but roadies making fun of anyone seems a bit of a stretch, no? I mean, look at us.

 

[carbon101]

@sharad PM sent