Forget this years Giro: who were the top three last year?????

[theyoungest]

David Moncoutié, 8th in the 2008 Vuelta. If David Moncoutié is doping, this sport is dead to me. He is my litmus test that allows me to keep the faith.

Exactly. This guy rides because he likes it, and nothing else. Which is sometimes frustrating for a fan, but consoling in times of doping.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Have you considered the possibility that Valverde, Contador, Lance, Basso etc are simply better riders than the likes of Evans to begin with, prior to the dope? I think it's very possible. It could be that they are all doping equally and the best come out on top. It could be that there are gross inequalities in terms of doping programs. What seems certain, however, is there is no way in hell Sastre and Evans (in addition to the rest) accumulated the palmares they have dope free. If you look at their careers, neither has been on a team that could be considered clean, or where doping wasn't encouraged. I guess I'm jaded, but I've been following this sport a long time and there isn't a single Pro Tour rider that I believe is dope-free.

Really the ugliest aspect of the propaganda the cycling media encourages (ie that part of the peloton is clean, while the other is doping), is that fans naively assume the race winner is doping, while their favorite coming in at place 8 or whatever must be the best 'clean' rider. It's fandom based on the will-to-believe, or a kind of wish-fullfillment.

It could be that their clean. Complete hypotheticals! Wallace is completely right.

 

[Juan Pelota]

Valverde is not the same rider he was in 2006. He was unbeatable then.

 

[Inner Peace]

Have you considered the possibility that Valverde, Contador, Lance, Basso etc are simply better riders than the likes of Evans to begin with, prior to the dope? I think it's very possible. It could be that they are all doping equally and the best come out on top. It could be that there are gross inequalities in terms of doping programs. What seems certain, however, is there is no way in hell Sastre and Evans (in addition to the rest) accumulated the palmares they have dope free. If you look at their careers, neither has been on a team that could be considered clean, or where doping wasn't encouraged. I guess I'm jaded, but I've been following this sport a long time and there isn't a single Pro Tour rider that I believe is dope-free.

Really the ugliest aspect of the propaganda the cycling media encourages (ie that part of the peloton is clean, while the other is doping), is that fans naively assume the race winner is doping, while their favorite coming in at place 8 or whatever must be the best 'clean' rider. It's fandom based on the will-to-believe, or a kind of wish-fullfillment.

Evans has apparently posted many V02 max tests in the high 80s and there was once a rumour around here that he may have once done one in the 90s (i don't think the 90 is true tho, just a rumour). Many of these tests were in the mountain bike days (before he was exposed to the 'dirty' road)... More talented than Armstrong if you think VO2 is a relevant measure of natural talent

I give most riders the benefit of the doubt, but rumour has it that Evans was a freakish talent his whole life and only when he hit the road scene he couldn't win as consistently and dramatically as before...

He did the opposite to most riders. He never really made a huge jump in performance and nearly won a GT on debut (like clean proponents Hinault and Lemond), so it was clear to all observers back in the early 2000s that this guy had some serious talent.

So i actually think it's likely that he is one of the most naturally talented riders out there. But then again, it's easier to get this information about english speakign riders because they get more coverage in my country than do europeans (most people in Australia don't know who Contador is - just Armstrong and Evans) so I have less information about the natural abilities of riders like Contador or Andy Schleck or Robert Gesink. Anyone know their VO2 max scores???

Note i'm willing to believe that at Telekom/T-mob Evans may have been seriously tempted/pressured into doping but since he raced little due to injury it's inconclusive to tell the truth of what happened at that god forsaken team... I remember in some TV interview over the summer the presenter asked if he was ever tempted to dope and Evans took a seriously big hard swallow and denied. An objective person would have looked at him and thought, hmmm that was an interesting way to respond BUT Evans is very awkward in interviews so it was really hard to tell. He didn't look guilty, but rather very apprehensive about answering the question. he is a nervous wreck anyway tho.

(wow i can't believe I wrote that much about Evans - is our resident australian cycle fan impressed??)

 

[auscyclefan94]

Evans has apparently posted many V02 max tests in the high 80s and there was once a rumour around here that he may have once done one in the 90s (i don't think the 90 is true tho, just a rumour). Many of these tests were in the mountain bike days (before he was exposed to the 'dirty' road)... More talented than Armstrong if you think VO2 is a relevant measure of natural talent

I give most riders the benefit of the doubt, but rumour has it that Evans was a freakish talent his whole life and only when he hit the road scene he couldn't win as consistently and dramatically as before...

He did the opposite to most riders. He never really made a huge jump in performance and nearly won a GT on debut (like clean proponents Hinault and Lemond), so it was clear to all observers back in the early 2000s that this guy had some serious talent.

So i actually think it's likely that he is one of the most naturally talented riders out there. But then again, it's easier to get this information about english speakign riders because they get more coverage in my country than do europeans (most people in Australia don't know who Contador is - just Armstrong and Evans)

Note am i'm willing to believe that at Telekom/T-mob Evans may have been seriously tempted/pressured into doping but since he raced little due to injury it's inconclusive to tell the truth of what happened at that god forsaken team...

I hears the 90's thing to with the Vo2 max.

Didn't someone speak to the uci from t/mob because of the doping going on there? Also, during la vuelta, didn't most of the team pull out because of "gastro" except evans?

 

[Fourier]

Personally i would rather have a clean race than a entertaining one..............I want the winner's name of a grand tour to last on the records longer than 1 year??

There's always the 2009 Vuelta...
uh wait

 

[galaxy1]

i know a lot of guys here just want to bang on about doping. i wouldn't pretend to know whether Evans (or anyone else) is clean or not.

however, there are other reasons why Evans has the palmares he has despite huge talent. he has no finishing kick, and until recently was famed (rightly or wrongly) for his wheelsucking tendencies. in the tactics of big road races he seems to be a natural "also in the front group".

i have noticed that these kinds of riders seem to attract the (rather tenuous) reputation for being especially "clean". in fact, this behaviour (always in the front group, never placing) could easily be indicative of someone who was particularly dirty.

conversely, other riders (natural "winners"??) win relatively often on the few occasions when they manage to hang onto the front group - i suppose this could cause undue suspicion about them.

i suppose it all comes down to the same point: you can't tell whether someone is clean or dirty by analysing their racing (possible exception: people who dope erratically). however much you would like to think you can. you can't tell someone who is gaining 10% from PEDs from an identical rider who is 10% more talented.

 

[53 x 11]

it really was sad to see the peleton just rolling over historic climbs with some guy called gregory rast on the front and absolutely no real action up the road...

what is the point of having a climb like the tourmalet in last year's tour at all?

Barnes, this thread is about the Giro and is therefore interesting. Please do not make it about the tour, the dullest and most pontificated race in human history.

thankyou.

 

[auscyclefan94]

It could be that their clean. Complete hypotheticals! Wallace is completely right.

My mistake, that's not possible!

 

[BroDeal]

however, there are other reasons why Evans has the palmares he has despite huge talent. he has no finishing kick, and until recently was famed (rightly or wrongly) for his wheelsucking tendencies. in the tactics of big road races he seems to be a natural "also in the front group".

Not an adequate excuse. Leipheimer has no kick but has managed to win a number of stage races. Menchov won the Vuelta and the Giro.

 

[auscyclefan94]

i know a lot of guys here just want to bang on about doping. i wouldn't pretend to know whether Evans (or anyone else) is clean or not.

however, there are other reasons why Evans has the palmares he has despite huge talent. he has no finishing kick, and until recently was famed (rightly or wrongly) for his wheelsucking tendencies. in the tactics of big road races he seems to be a natural "also in the front group".

i have noticed that these kinds of riders seem to attract the (rather tenuous) reputation for being especially "clean". in fact, this behaviour (always in the front group, never placing) could easily be indicative of someone who was particularly dirty.

conversely, other riders (natural "winners"??) win relatively often on the few occasions when they manage to hang onto the front group - i suppose this could cause undue suspicion about them.

i suppose it all comes down to the same point: you can't tell whether someone is clean or dirty by analysing their racing (possible exception: people who dope erratically). however much you would like to think you can. you can't tell someone who is gaining 10% from PEDs from an identical rider who is 10% more talented.

Saying he doesn't have a finishing kick is not exactly right. He doesn't win many but is always 2nd or 3rd in them.

 

[pmcg76]

Forget the 2009 Giro, go back and look at the Top 10 0f the 08 Giro and see how many guys are left without doping sanctions. I actually attended the 08 Giro and saw the stages to Alpe di Pampeago(Sella), Marmolada(Sella), and the TT on Plan de Cornes(Pellizotti). Ironically I talked to a pro on the morning of that TT and he simply couldnt believe the speed of the top guys the previous 2 days and from how far out they went full gas. He was very sceptical of Sella and indeed all the top performances. These guys know what is possible in pro cycling and the conversation has proven to be very accurate now.

Just to round of my 08, I also went to the Tour that year and saw the stages won by Ricco and Piepoli so nobody needs to tell me about believing in clean cycling.

 

[Frosty]

Ive wondered before who the first clean rider was on the Hautacam stage of the tour in 2008

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/tour08/?id=results/tour0810

Numbers 1, 4, 6, 11, 14 and 17 have since been caught* and i think there are at least a few other suspicious people there...

The giro in 2008 has seen numbers 2, 4, 6 and 8 since be crossed out

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/giro08/?id=results/giro0821

*ok to satisfy the pedants out there some were caught doping after the tour but i cant see any sudden improvement in those people.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

How about this one?

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/giro07/?id=results/giro0715

Schleck in 9th to inherit the win? 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th, 10th, 13th and now 14th can all be crossed off. Parra has disappeared back to Colombia. Pérez Cuapio was on that shady 2008 CSF-Navigare team and was off the front on any day that Fortunato Baliani wasn't, and is now back in Mexico. Simoni ought to be crossed off too. Cunego's own comments would imply that he probably should as well. Andy Schleck in 9th and David Arroyo in 11th are the first ones you could even THINK about not crossing off.

 

[online-rider]

"According to current analyses, the evidence which has been presented does not seem to scientifically prove with certainty any improper conduct by the athlete."

- Team Liquigas yesterday

WTF! its a biological passport. This ****ty team should be kicked out of cycling for good! Don't they have to sign a charter telling them to take the bio passport seriousley?
I really respect what the UCI has come up with with this passport, despite what people say about them, but these liquigas bosses are taking the f*king ****, if they dont take UCI rules seriousley then they shouldnt be allowed to race the UCI's races. Kick them out I say.

 

[ludwig]

Andy Schleck in 9th and David Arroyo in 11th are the first ones you could even THINK about not crossing off.

Schleck rides for CSC and Riis. If anybody is clean, it isn't them. Arroyo rides/rode for Caisse, the team that essentially pioneered the whole process.

Thank you, come again.

 

[ludwig]

David Moncoutié, 8th in the 2008 Vuelta. If David Moncoutié is doping, this sport is dead to me. He is my litmus test that allows me to keep the faith.

Imagine how people like Moncoutie feel having to constantly lie to the media to satisfy naive fans.

Sorry, it is highly unlikely he won Vuelta stages and finished 8th overall dope-free. If he did, he is a freak of nature and he would receive alot more attention and admiration than he currently does.

Better to discard the faith than to persist in illusion.

 

[ludwig]

It could be that their clean. Complete hypotheticals! Wallace is completely right.

Your will-to-believe is inspiring. Do you extend your faith to any riders beyond Evans? Who are the clean contenders in your view, or do you simply "extend the benefit of the doubt"?

 

[ludwig]

Good post. Most posts of this nature don't use supporting evidence to bolster their points, but you have alot here..

Evans has apparently posted many V02 max tests in the high 80s and there was once a rumour around here that he may have once done one in the 90s (i don't think the 90 is true tho, just a rumour). Many of these tests were in the mountain bike days (before he was exposed to the 'dirty' road)... More talented than Armstrong if you think VO2 is a relevant measure of natural talent

But isn't the same thing said about every major contender? Valverde and Contador were considered freakish talents in the amateur ranks. Ullrich was obviously a supreme natural talent, yet we now know he was also doping his entire career.

It could well be that Evans is one of the most naturally talented riders out there....that fact certainly wouldn't be out of line with Evans' accomplishments. But don't discount the natural talent of his competitors. You yourself admit you have more info about Evans than others....so on what basis can you make conclusions relative to other riders?

[quote
He did the opposite to most riders. He never really made a huge jump in performance and nearly won a GT on debut (like clean proponents Hinault and Lemond), so it was clear to all observers back in the early 2000s that this guy had some serious talent.[/quote]

So he was riding for Mapei back in 2001 and finished 2nd in the Giro clean? How likely is that? You concede that was a team-based doping program at Telekom, but the bottom line is Mapei was no better.

The thing to keep in mind here is doping goes beyond the Top 10 of select races..it's pretty much peloton-wide....hence the code of silence and the united front on doping among cyclists. McQuaid and company want you to believe it's just a few bad apples....I guess they feel this is the best strategy to take in case there is a scandal.

 

[Wallace]

Again, this may be hugely naive, but I believe that in the aftermath of Puerto (I know: we've heard this before: "in the aftermath of Festina"...) and with the implementation of the bio-passport, there has been an effort to clean up the sport, and while it's clear that any rider with a will and the means (Hi Lance!) can get around the system, it also seems to me that there are riders who are now riding without drugs. I think things have changed--although I also think the situation is fragile, and teams like Astana and Saxo put the pressure on other riders to dope, if only to compete and not get totally embarrassed.

Look at the silence that's surrounded Cancellara's Spring victories--everybody knows how you get those kinds of results. A lot of riders were appalled.

You know what we're going to see at the soon-to-start Giro? A doped rider, Vinokurov, stomping the pi$$ out of two possibly clean riders, Evans and Sastre. And it's going to be really ugly.

 

[Escarabajo]

How about this one?

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/giro07/?id=results/giro0715

Schleck in 9th to inherit the win? 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th, 10th, 13th and now 14th can all be crossed off. Parra has disappeared back to Colombia. Pérez Cuapio was on that shady 2008 CSF-Navigare team and was off the front on any day that Fortunato Baliani wasn't, and is now back in Mexico. Simoni ought to be crossed off too. Cunego's own comments would imply that he probably should as well. Andy Schleck in 9th and David Arroyo in 11th are the first ones you could even THINK about not crossing off.

Oh please. You are pushing the envelope too much. Schleck and Arroyo?
Come on. And based on the same criteria not all of them in front of them have tested positive. So why bother redoing the classification.

 

[ludwig]

You know what we're going to see at the soon-to-start Giro? A doped rider, Vinokurov, stomping the pi$$ out of two possibly clean riders, Evans and Sastre. And it's going to be really ugly.

If guys like Sastre and Evans were actually clean, they would make quite a stink over the doping. When pressed, these guys will claim they are clean (like any other cyclist), but they certainly don't act like men who are being cheated out of their rightful place in the sport.

 

[BroDeal]

David Moncoutié, 8th in the 2008 Vuelta. If David Moncoutié is doping, this sport is dead to me. He is my litmus test that allows me to keep the faith.

Moncoutie gained seven minutes in a break. He also participated in many other breaks, so it not like he went mano-a-mano with the GC contenders every stage and ended up 8th overall. He used the same strategy last year and finished 46 minutes down on Valverde.

 

[auscyclefan94]

If guys like Sastre and Evans were actually clean, they would make quite a stink over the doping. When pressed, these guys will claim they are clean (like any other cyclist), but they certainly don't act like men who are being cheated out of their rightful place in the sport.

I would disagree, Evans made strong comments about Vino recently and Valverde in the past. Really, if they go out yelling doper then couldn't they be possibly sued for defamation?

 

[blaxland]

I would disagree, Evans made strong comments about Vino recently and Valverde in the past. Really, if they go out yelling doper then couldn't they be possibly sued for defamation?

+1 agree Auscyclefan94.......and also damage any further relations with alternative teams......