From Racehorse to Donkey

[BikeCentric]

Not sure when Basso became a donkey...

2009

Giro 4th
Vuelta 4th

2010

Giro 1st
Tour 31st

2011

Tour 7th

2012

Giro 5th

Scarponi's inclusion in this thread is another mystery.

Basso clearly has a lot of natural talent as I think he is riding clean(ish) since his return and as you correctly point out he's certainly still in the mix.

The main point is before he served his suspension and was full of drugs in races he won the Giro by like 20 minutes and was riding up mountains all alone with Lance Armstrong in Le Tour 5 minutes ahead of everyone else.

He's not the same rider since he came back.

 

[issoisso]

just want to say that Popovych's loss of form is so incredibly obvious. he was awesome at the 2007 Tour, easily the best domestique in the race. then he left the Bruyneel team for Lotto and has been absolutely useless ever since. i have no idea how he still hangs around and ends up on grand tour teams.

And it all happened the moment his best friend Bileka tested positive for EPO

 

[Realist]

What about Zabriskie? A few years back, crushed a heavily juiced Armstrong in the tour's opening TT, got 2 worlds podiums and a number of other grand tour wins. Now he doesn't make an impression in the Grand Tour or worlds TTs at all. He's still a classy time trialist and a good journeyman stage racer in the week long 2.1s and even 2.HCs, but he was looking like developing into a real stage racer and always made an impression in the biggest TTs until he left Bjarne and had to shut it down a little bit.

 

[Franklin]

I think we should not forget a few things:

-Sometimes people can't make the jump. This was true pre-epo and I actually don't see a reason why this would be different in the Epo era.

-People can get sick/injuries taht hamper them their whole career

-People can loose motivation (Berzin is an example)

Even with full-on medical science cycling does not exists of robots which can be filled with dope and commands

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Maybe not full donkey, but clearly not riding like he did pre-2007.

Basso clearly has a lot of natural talent as I think he is riding clean(ish) since his return and as you correctly point out he's certainly still in the mix.

The main point is before he served his suspension and was full of drugs in races he won the Giro by like 20 minutes and was riding up mountains all alone with Lance Armstrong in Le Tour 5 minutes ahead of everyone else.

He's not the same rider since he came back.

ET to racehorse would be more accurate in Basso's case.

 

[Von Mises]

Juan Jose Cobo. Looking at todays stage and Tour in general and remebering last years Vuelta performace Cobo vs Froome.

 

[Turner29]

What about Zabriskie? A few years back, crushed a heavily juiced Armstrong in the tour's opening TT.

Zabriskie was aided by a strong tail wind that later in the day became a head wind:

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/riders/2005/diaries/levi/tour05.php?id=levi0509

His other Grand Tour wins were team time trials.

 

[Dead Star]

Zabriskie was aided by a strong tail wind that later in the day became a head wind:

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/riders/2005/diaries/levi/tour05.php?id=levi0509

His other Grand Tour wins were team time trials.

Which Giro was it where he was towing Rogers style for Basso with another CSC colleague? It was the one where Basso apparently got sick, lost a load of time in one mountain stage then recovered to win another later on.

 

[BroDeal]

Evans and most of the BMC team.

I posted this in another thread, but I suspect the UCI has been warning riders or teams about dodgy passports just Hamilton like was warned. Perhaps it is even being done to ease the way for certain desirable results that would help expand the sport.

 

[Mr.DNA]

Which Giro was it where he was towing Rogers style for Basso with another CSC colleague? It was the one where Basso apparently got sick, lost a load of time in one mountain stage then recovered to win another later on.

I think it was this stage:
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/giro05/?id=results/giro0513

 

[Maxiton]

 

[Ferminal]

Sagan was never a donkey.

 

[Maxiton]

Sagan was never a donkey.

The farmer disagrees, apparently. As for me, though, I like Sagan.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Popovych immediately came to mind as well.

Levi and Vande Velde as well, though both are at the end of their careers, their drop off from podium or near podium to this far back...

Luis Leon Sanchez can be compared to Valverde. He won stage 14. But considering he finished 10th just two years ago, and now he's over 2 hours back...

I will say this though, it's nice to see these guys riding completely clean apparently.

LOL at that photo!

 

[Benotti69]

Popovych immediately came to mind as well.

Levi and Vande Velde as well, though both are at the end of their careers, their drop off from podium or near podium to this far back...

Luis Leon Sanchez can be compared to Valverde. He won stage 14. But considering he finished 10th just two years ago, and now he's over 2 hours back...

I will say this though, it's nice to see these guys riding completely clean apparently.

LOL at that photo!

I doubt they are riding clean. The micro dosing has to be happening. These guys and their DS dont know how to operate without something going in. Even if they are injecting water for the psychological effect it has.

I am inclined to think that the levels are greatly reduced for racing or at a minimum, but training is still done to the maximum 'possible' levels,which aint what it was with Biopassport now happening and McQuaid able to use it to threaten riders and teams with.

But again i doubt it is a clean peloton, the nature of the sport is to dope. It is almost a tradition. I cant imagine Bruyneel knows how to operate without thinking about the logisitcs of doping.

Also if it was clean now, i guess lots more of the riders would talk about it and not just the so called clean teams. But Mantova is happening, we see riders getting busted for positives.

It hasn't gone away you know.

 

[BroDeal]

Leipheimer. 9:41 loss in the final time trial. On the sauce he would have come in top five. I bet Lefevere is livid. He thought he was buying a contender.

What happened to Vande Velde since 2008 and 2009? Being on Slipstream, he was clean back then (if we believe in JV). He should be doing even better as the peloton cleaned up, especially in a Tour with a route like this one.

 

[MrRoboto]

Vladimir Efimkin...What happened to him?

 

[131313]

Leipheimer. 9:41 loss in the final time trial. On the sauce he would have come in top five. I bet Lefevere is livid. He thought he was buying a contender.

he's definitely among the most obvious.

What happened to Vande Velde since 2008 and 2009? Being on Slipstream, he was clean back then (if we believe in JV). He should be doing even better as the peloton cleaned up, especially in a Tour with a route like this one.

Well, in his defense a few things happened. The Giro happened and then Ryder happened. He's like the anti-Ryder IMO. He's better working in support of other guys. He also has the reputation of not being the hardest working guy in show business, and actually does crazy stuff like spend time with his kids. In short, I just don't think he cares that much, at least enough to be at the very top. I think the planets aligned that one year in the Tour, then after the bad crash the next year he stopped caring all that much. Can't say I blame him.

 

[zlev11]

yeah, VDV lost a ton of time in the first week with crashes and I guess just gave up and decided to save all his energy for a stage and almost got it. I think if he could've stayed in contact in the first week he'd easily be in the Top 15. rode a decent TT today too.

 

[will10]

Vladimir Efimkin...What happened to him?

Wasn't his wife unwell? I think that's why he retired

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Old man Levi can barely get out of bed without a hormone cocktail.

 

[Bala Verde]

Evans and most of the BMC team.

I posted this in another thread, but I suspect the UCI has been warning riders or teams about dodgy passports just Hamilton like was warned. Perhaps it is even being done to ease the way for certain desirable results that would help expand the sport.

I think M. Rasmussen, during his post 2007 struggle to be allowed back in the pro peloton, mentioned that once.

I think, unfortunately I can't find the source or quote, he said that the biological passport allows the monitoring body a lot of leeway, because they have to build a case interpreting the passport and then try to 'positively' prove manipulation, as opposed to releasing the results of a test that just shows you are + i.e. "you have used banned product x." His rational was that riders can be (unfairly) targeted, whereas others could be left off the hook, dependent on the whims of the overseers.

Is there any "statistically significant evidence" that people who change teams they have been with for a while, suffer a 'setback' in their first year, because, I don't know, it affects doping logistics?
1) new team management; trust?; different methods?; different monitoring regime?;
2) new (training/living) area; new laws
3) new team mates; ???

 

[BYOP88]

I hope the tour organisers put the Alpe d'Huez ITT in for the 100th anniversary next year. Exact same stage as 2004. Even better, make it the same stage number (16).

Then we can check the top 10-20 times and get a good picture of how much slower (cleaner?) the GC contenders really are.

Do it for the clinic ASO!

For that theory to work, wouldn't they need to do the the exact route again and have the same weather conditions as 2004 for it to be a valid test?

 

[Fergoose]

Keeping in mind that it's all relative, and that a euro-pro "donkey" is still a racehorse compared to most people, I'm struck but the strange loss of form by quite a few guys: Levi, Menchov, Vino, Kloden, Popovych, Scarponi, Basso, just to name a few.

What are the punishments for getting busted a second time? I'd imagine they are potentially a lot harsher. I think this lies behind a lot of the poorer performances (although on your list above Levi, Menchov & Kloden could just be getting on a bit).

My pet theory is that people who have been caught (or have ongoing investigations that may end up incriminating them) are much less likely to gamble on getting caught again (e.g. Valverde, Basso, Scarponi). These riders are still on lucrative contracts and might not want to risk losing that at this later stage on their career when even a 2 year ban would really bite. Whereas rolling the dice when they were 27 or 28 would mean they'd still have plenty of earning potential post-ban in the forgiving world of professional cycling.

I'm not too surprised to see that arguably the most outlandish GT performances we've seen in recent years come from riders who haven't been caught red-handed before and had less to lose as they were heading out of contract (e.g. Cobo & Froome).

A test of my random theory will be the Vuelta, where I expect a once-bitten twice-shy Contador to get a beating off Chris Froome & Cobo, even though both of them have a TdF in their legs. Although at 29, and with such forgiving and steadfast backing from Spanish political & sporting bodies, Contador may think he can risk returning to his reduced, post-2008 level of doping.

 

[Caruut]

The 2nd punishment is officially a life ban, though sometimes it doesn't work like that.