Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

Thanks Classicomano. Looks like the bus is waiting for Froome to be thrown under.

Yep

So far whatever happens Brailsfraud comes out not exactly smelling of roses but not entirely drowning in manure either

Each time the gullible fanboys bless em keep the faith gotta respect that combo of naivety and stamina

But really Brailsfraud is not as clever as he thinks as a political operator he's slime-tastic

Imagine having that as an epitaph

Legacy of ashes

Froome is a rather forgettable character though. I don't think anyone would miss him. I actually don't blame Brailsford dropping him, he'd better off with going with another rider, he has plenty to choose from who could all win 28 GTs with the Sky formula.

Egan Bernal, under 60 Kg climber, already Colombia ITT champion with Sky and today sprinting uphill with Quintana and Uran while dropping his fellow "altitude native" captain Henao. It's much easier too than with Froome, Bernal is talented and he's only 21.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Re: Re:

Thanks Classicomano. Looks like the bus is waiting for Froome to be thrown under.

Yep

So far whatever happens Brailsfraud comes out not exactly smelling of roses but not entirely drowning in manure either

Each time the gullible fanboys bless em keep the faith gotta respect that combo of naivety and stamina

But really Brailsfraud is not as clever as he thinks as a political operator he's slime-tastic

Imagine having that as an epitaph

Legacy of ashes

Froome is a rather forgettable character though. I don't think anyone would miss him. I actually don't blame Brailsford dropping him, he'd better off with going with another rider, he has plenty to choose from who could all win 28 GTs with the Sky formula.

you will be missing him actually. once froome gets banned and quits, there will be no one to hate with passion. the sense of following cycling is getting lost.

Not the done thing here
to attribute hate to other posters
Retract.

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

Thanks Classicomano. Looks like the bus is waiting for Froome to be thrown under.

Yep

So far whatever happens Brailsfraud comes out not exactly smelling of roses but not entirely drowning in manure either

Each time the gullible fanboys bless em keep the faith gotta respect that combo of naivety and stamina

But really Brailsfraud is not as clever as he thinks as a political operator he's slime-tastic

Imagine having that as an epitaph

Legacy of ashes

Froome is a rather forgettable character though. I don't think anyone would miss him. I actually don't blame Brailsford dropping him, he'd better off with going with another rider, he has plenty to choose from who could all win 28 GTs with the Sky formula.

you will be missing him actually. once froome gets banned and quits, there will be no one to hate with passion. the sense of following cycling is getting lost.

Not the done thing here
to attribute hate to other posters
Retract.

So its ok to liberally use the term 'fanboy' to belittle anyone with any hint of sympathy for Froome/Sky, but to say someone 'hates' (i.e. the logical polar opposite of 'fanboyism') is not the done thing?

Seems somewhat unfair...

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

This is beyond naive. There's an entire thread on salbutamol and you don't think anyone uses it as doping?

Okay, it's not blood doping or EPO, but it is doping when used in a certain way which, judging by the amount found in Froome's sample, indicates he used it in an illegal way.[/quote]

Hang on. You're holding up the fact that there's a thread on here devoted to Salbutamol as proof that it's being used as a doping product?

A thread by the way which was only started on the back of Froome's AAF.

I mean, maybe it is, I think it probably is fwiw. But how the existence of a thread on an internet forum proves this I have no idea [/quote]

No, but the content of the thread could help you form your opinion.

Honestly the bit about being able to teset below threshold on very high oral doses with legal masking agents looks plausible, and there's a lot of other good stuff in there, even though it's almost all speculative[/quote]

Yeah I get that, it's a great thread which I've followed avidly and learnt a great deal towards forming an opinion.

But it's just that, an opinion.

As informative as the thread is, it proves nothing. Even less so the mere existence of a thread. Which was the point of my post .[/quote]

the point might have been perhaps that a thread about plain flour being a PED would have lasted a couple of posts before being closed...so the fact that there's an active and ongoing thread probably means means it got some legs......the proposition from Parker was that nobody was using salbutomol for doping...when...they evidently are...and wada ban it....and...there are plenty of studies showing that it is a PED when taken in high does i.e. orally[/quote]

The thread grew legs because it's directly linked to an AAF against a certain rider who happens to attract quite a lot of interest around these parts

 

[poupou]

Re: Re:

The thread grew legs because it's directly linked to an AAF against a certain rider who happens to attract quite a lot of interest around these parts

You probably missed on that forum the equivalent cases, while being in XC ski!

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

The thread grew legs because it's directly linked to an AAF against a certain rider who happens to attract quite a lot of interest around these parts

You probably missed on that forum the equivalent cases, while being in XC ski!

So there was a thread dedicated to salbutamol prior to the Froome AAF?

If so then yes I missed it

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

100% right.

Don't know what angle you are trying to pull that yiy are saying something true for once (I'm assuming jv said something bad about froome hence becomes the enemy) but I hope this experience will change you for the better

I tend to be centerist on most issues. I don't posture on any issue. I tend work on facts not opinion. In general I am on the side of most cyclists whom I don't feel owe me anything. I've been watching cycling since the 80s. I have a good idea of what a proper doping scandal is. And I have seen enough not to need to seek out another.

If Froome had tested positive for a 'proper' drug I wouldn't defend him. But he hasn't. When I first heard the news I thought 'salbutamol, is that it?'

For the record:

I don't think he or any other cyclist are using salbutamol as a doping product. Just as I don't think people build houses out of Lego. It's possible (James May did it), but it's stupid.
I think he may very well have taken too many puffs, Maybe deliberately in reaction to a genuine attack or desperately trying to tackle a problem that should have been dealt with by a TUE. Or maybe inadvertently by negligence or by swallowing or by faulty equipment.
Even if he is completely innocent, I don't think he will be able to prove it. And will be banned for 6-9 months
He will ride the Giro due the length of times these things take. He even get to ride the Tour.
He will keep these results.
Many, most even, on this forum had determined whether he was guilty or innocent before he had even taken the test.

Now unlike you I start everything from a position of 'I don't know' and build up from there. And always start from the point of view that humans are good people. You should try it. It will change you for the better (in the real meaning, not the 'I'm better than you, be like me' meaning)

And always remember the old adage that what can be stated without evidence (which is the baulk of the Clinic) can be rejected without evidence

And starting from the position that you don't know, back in 2009, when sky was announced, where has what happened over the last decade led you to? Do you still not know?

Ps i dont think that believing that all humans are good people is rational. Certainly if you held that position for every successful in the 90s and 2000s you would have been wrong pretty much 100%of the time. Surely you should have learnt from that

 

[fasthill]

Re: Re:

Hang on. You're holding up the fact that there's a thread on here devoted to Salbutamol as proof that it's being used as a doping product?

No, I don't. I'm pointing out the fact the thread has enough information to form an opinion about salbutamol's use as a doping product.

 

[hazaran]

Re: Re:

Hang on. You're holding up the fact that there's a thread on here devoted to Salbutamol as proof that it's being used as a doping product?

No, I don't. I'm pointing out the fact the thread has enough information to form an opinion about salbutamol's use as a doping product.

Well you clearly haven't read it, that thread has very little to do with Salbutamol for performance enhancement.

 

[Merckx index]

Re: Re:

So there was a thread dedicated to salbutamol prior to the Froome AAF?

If so then yes I missed it

There were a couple, though they didn't get much action:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=21530&p=1356274&hilit=salbutamol+study#p1356274

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11565&p=398609&hilit=salbutamol#p398609

Also, five threads devoted to asthma, generating a total of about 140 posts.

A better question to ask might be, though, is how many Clinic threads dedicated to clenbuterol were there prior to Contador's positive? Zero.

It often takes an AAF of a high profile rider before a drug gets much attention. Prior to Froome, there was only Petacchi, and that case preceded the Clinic. And in other forums that were active earlier, I don't recall any discussion of homologous blood transfusion prior to Tyler's positive. Indeed, I'm not sure that AD authorities realized prior to that that riders were switching from EPO, following the implementation of a test for that, to transfusions. As we all know, dopers are always ahead of the testers.

Well you clearly haven't read it, that thread has very little to do with Salbutamol for performance enhancement.

The majority of posts deal with other issues, true, but I wouldn't say it has "very little" to do with PE. There have been some discussions of that.

 

[fasthill]

Re: Re:

Well you clearly haven't read it, that thread has very little to do with Salbutamol for performance enhancement.

The first post by Merckx Index has links to 15 studies under the "Performance enhancing effects of salbutamol" subheading. As a start.

For someone then to come along and claim he doesn't believe any pro cyclist uses salbutamol as a PED is to show one's refusal to accept what others know about the drug's effects on human physiology.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

So there was a thread dedicated to salbutamol prior to the Froome AAF?

If so then yes I missed it

There were a couple, though they didn't get much action:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=21530&p=1356274&hilit=salbutamol+study#p1356274

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11565&p=398609&hilit=salbutamol#p398609

Also, five threads devoted to asthma, generating a total of about 140 posts.

A better question to ask might be, though, is how many Clinic threads dedicated to clenbuterol were there prior to Contador's positive? Zero.

It often takes an AAF of a high profile rider before a drug gets much attention. Prior to Froome, there was only Petacchi, and that case preceded the Clinic. And in other forums that were active earlier, I don't recall any discussion of homologous blood transfusion prior to Tyler's positive. Indeed, I'm not sure that AD authorities realized prior to that that riders were switching from EPO, following the implementation of a test for that, to transfusions. As we all know, dopers are always ahead of the testers.

Well you clearly haven't read it, that thread has very little to do with Salbutamol for performance enhancement.

The majority of posts deal with other issues, true, but I wouldn't say it has "very little" to do with PE. There have been some discussions of that.

There was also a good amount of discussion around the Ulissi AAF for Salbutamol as well, which touched on performance enhancement.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Hang on. You're holding up the fact that there's a thread on here devoted to Salbutamol as proof that it's being used as a doping product?

No, I don't. I'm pointing out the fact the thread has enough information to form an opinion about salbutamol's use as a doping product.

That or...ya know...history...

https://www.dopeology.org/products/Salbutamol/

SALBUTAMOL BRONCHODILATOR ID 20
INCIDENTS 24
Type
Date
Froome adverse analytical finding Adverse analytical finding 07/09/2017
Pliuschin positive Positive test 28/11/2014
Ulissi positive Positive test 21/05/2014
Piepoli positive 1 Positive test 30/05/2007
Petacchi positive Positive test 23/05/2007
Pereiro cleared Investigation 25/01/2007
Cofidis convictions Criminal conviction 19/01/2007
Girschweiler positive Positive test 21/07/2006
Pereiro positive 2 Positive test 19/07/2006
Pereiro positive 1 Positive test 16/07/2006
Cofidis resignations Termination of contract 05/05/2004
Berthou positive Positive test 08/04/2004
Saprykinas positive Positive test 15/07/2002
González de Galdeano, I positive Positive test 12/07/2002
Velo appeal Appeal against sanction 06/10/2000
Velo positive Positive test 20/06/2000
Cofidis seizures Investigation 11/09/1998
White positive Positive test 27/04/1998
Rominger positive Hearing evidence 02/07/1994
Indurain positive Positive test 15/05/1994
Ballerini positive 1 Positive test 10/04/1994
Madouas positive Positive test 13/02/1994
Hamburger positive 1 Positive test 13/09/1993
Zülle positive Positive test 09/04/1993

PEOPLE 21
Nationality
BALLERINI Franco Italy
BERTHOU Eric France
BONDUE Alain France
DELOEUIL Alain France
FROOME Christopher United Kingdom
GIRSCHWEILER Christoph Switzerland
GONZÁLEZ DE GALDEANO Igor Spain
HAMBURGER Bo Denmark
INDURAIN Miguel Spain
MADOUAS Laurent France
PEREIRO Oscar Spain
PETACCHI Alessandro Italy
PIEPOLI Leonardo Italy
PLIUSCHIN Alexandr Moldova
QUILFEN Bernard France
ROMINGER Toni Switzerland
SAPRYKINAS Arnoldas Lithuania
ULISSI Diego Italy
VELO Marco Italy
WHITE Matthew Australia
ZÜLLE Alex Switzerland

I'm sure they are all asthma sufferers.

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

Hang on. You're holding up the fact that there's a thread on here devoted to Salbutamol as proof that it's being used as a doping product?

No, I don't. I'm pointing out the fact the thread has enough information to form an opinion about salbutamol's use as a doping product.

OK, in that case fair enough, makes sense.

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

Hang on. You're holding up the fact that there's a thread on here devoted to Salbutamol as proof that it's being used as a doping product?

No, I don't. I'm pointing out the fact the thread has enough information to form an opinion about salbutamol's use as a doping product.

That or...ya know...history...

https://www.dopeology.org/products/Salbutamol/

SALBUTAMOL BRONCHODILATOR ID 20
INCIDENTS 24
Type
Date
Froome adverse analytical finding Adverse analytical finding 07/09/2017
Pliuschin positive Positive test 28/11/2014
Ulissi positive Positive test 21/05/2014
Piepoli positive 1 Positive test 30/05/2007
Petacchi positive Positive test 23/05/2007
Pereiro cleared Investigation 25/01/2007
Cofidis convictions Criminal conviction 19/01/2007
Girschweiler positive Positive test 21/07/2006
Pereiro positive 2 Positive test 19/07/2006
Pereiro positive 1 Positive test 16/07/2006
Cofidis resignations Termination of contract 05/05/2004
Berthou positive Positive test 08/04/2004
Saprykinas positive Positive test 15/07/2002
González de Galdeano, I positive Positive test 12/07/2002
Velo appeal Appeal against sanction 06/10/2000
Velo positive Positive test 20/06/2000
Cofidis seizures Investigation 11/09/1998
White positive Positive test 27/04/1998
Rominger positive Hearing evidence 02/07/1994
Indurain positive Positive test 15/05/1994
Ballerini positive 1 Positive test 10/04/1994
Madouas positive Positive test 13/02/1994
Hamburger positive 1 Positive test 13/09/1993
Zülle positive Positive test 09/04/1993

PEOPLE 21
Nationality
BALLERINI Franco Italy
BERTHOU Eric France
BONDUE Alain France
DELOEUIL Alain France
FROOME Christopher United Kingdom
GIRSCHWEILER Christoph Switzerland
GONZÁLEZ DE GALDEANO Igor Spain
HAMBURGER Bo Denmark
INDURAIN Miguel Spain
MADOUAS Laurent France
PEREIRO Oscar Spain
PETACCHI Alessandro Italy
PIEPOLI Leonardo Italy
PLIUSCHIN Alexandr Moldova
QUILFEN Bernard France
ROMINGER Toni Switzerland
SAPRYKINAS Arnoldas Lithuania
ULISSI Diego Italy
VELO Marco Italy
WHITE Matthew Australia
ZÜLLE Alex Switzerland

I'm sure they are all asthma sufferers.

Nice stats Red, but not sure why you're quoting me to preface them?

I already said, fwiw, that I believe it's being used for PE.

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

Thanks Classicomano. Looks like the bus is waiting for Froome to be thrown under.

Yep

So far whatever happens Brailsfraud comes out not exactly smelling of roses but not entirely drowning in manure either

Each time the gullible fanboys bless em keep the faith gotta respect that combo of naivety and stamina

But really Brailsfraud is not as clever as he thinks as a political operator he's slime-tastic

Imagine having that as an epitaph

Legacy of ashes

Froome is a rather forgettable character though. I don't think anyone would miss him. I actually don't blame Brailsford dropping him, he'd better off with going with another rider, he has plenty to choose from who could all win 28 GTs with the Sky formula.

you will be missing him actually. once froome gets banned and quits, there will be no one to hate with passion. the sense of following cycling is getting lost.

Not the done thing here
to attribute hate to other posters
Retract.

why retract? The Hog´s hate for Sky-Froome-DB is genuine

 

[Wiggo's Package]

Walsh in today's ST saying Froome on antibiotics the day of his salbutamol AAF

The Dawg is truly a thing of wonder the ill-er he gets the quicker he rides!

Or more likely it's just another limb of the increasingly desparate "in the alternative" scatter gun defence

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Re: Re:

why retract? The Hog´s hate for Sky-Froome-DB is genuine

that's not what you say
it's due diligence

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

why retract? The Hog´s hate for Sky-Froome-DB is genuine

that's not what you say
it's due diligence

I’ve said a million times, I love Froome, I think he’s the funniest & most ridiculous cyclist I’ve ever witnessed. I’m actuslly shocked he has lasted as long pretending to be clean. I do miss his zig zagging and crashing but I’m sure it will be back soon after his ban for Salbutamol.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Walsh in today's ST saying Froome on antibiotics the day of his salbutamol AAF

The Dawg is truly a thing of wonder the ill-er he gets the quicker he rides!

Or more likely it's just another limb of the increasingly desparate "in the alternative" scatter gun defence

It’s true.... they literally have thrown every possible defence into the ring

 

[webvan]

Antibiotics for what ? A kidney infection ? Aren't these treated with super aggressive ABX that require no exercise and staying away from the sun ?

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Walsh in today's ST saying Froome on antibiotics the day of his salbutamol AAF

The Dawg is truly a thing of wonder the ill-er he gets the quicker he rides!

Or more likely it's just another limb of the increasingly desparate "in the alternative" scatter gun defence

It’s true.... they literally have thrown every possible defence into the ring

It's funny to see this question come up for the thousandth time--as if the same question has not been asked about every doper who got popped, ever. The answer, of course, is that riders dope regularly and get away with it regularly. This isn't the first or only time he abused Salbutamol, it's just potentially the first time he got the dose wrong enough to get busted and/or the first time that fact was leaked.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Walsh in today's ST saying Froome on antibiotics the day of his salbutamol AAF

The Dawg is truly a thing of wonder the ill-er he gets the quicker he rides!

Or more likely it's just another limb of the increasingly desparate "in the alternative" scatter gun defence

It’s true.... they literally have thrown every possible defence into the ring

logic from walsh...that's brilliant...it's as though Armstrong doping, being tested and never being caught, despite knowing he'd be tested, never happened...and was never written about by....eh...Walsh...first class

still, he has a job to do....throw up some red herrings for the believers....froome will still need a constituency when he gets back from his ban....

our hapless hero...on antibiotics, kidney malfunction and a bad asthma attack....all on the day he puts time into his rivals on a tough stage...just imagine what a fit and healthy Froome could do....

 

[JosephK]

Re: Re:

The Dawg is truly a thing of wonder the ill-er he gets the quicker he rides!

See, the thing is, casual cycling fans really cannot truly appreciate the heroism of Froome as he conquers grand tour after grand tour despite his many, many afflictions. Few may be aware of the lung transplant that he endured between the TDF and the Vuelta, and the fact that both knee joints had to be replaced mid-season after another bilharzia outbreak had affected circulation to the joints. Kidney failure? Well of course, that too. Sky worked overtime to make sure that the priest who administered the last rites to Froome before stage 18 was ferried out of the team bus unseen by the press.

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

Thanks Classicomano. Looks like the bus is waiting for Froome to be thrown under.

Yep

So far whatever happens Brailsfraud comes out not exactly smelling of roses but not entirely drowning in manure either

Each time the gullible fanboys bless em keep the faith gotta respect that combo of naivety and stamina

But really Brailsfraud is not as clever as he thinks as a political operator he's slime-tastic

Imagine having that as an epitaph

Legacy of ashes

Froome is a rather forgettable character though. I don't think anyone would miss him. I actually don't blame Brailsford dropping him, he'd better off with going with another rider, he has plenty to choose from who could all win 28 GTs with the Sky formula.

you will be missing him actually. once froome gets banned and quits, there will be no one to hate with passion. the sense of following cycling is getting lost.

Not the done thing here
to attribute hate to other posters
Retract.

Who the hell do you think you are