Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

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Cycle Chic said:
after that stage I thought 'how can he keep getting away with this ?'

and I knew the answer - because all he / the team have to do is ride out the 'amazement and disbelief' for a few hours and all will be forgotten and be yesterdays news the day after. And they walk away with yet another Grand Tour / race.

How many people will remember this next month ? Joe Bloggs doesnt remember Ventoux or any of his other outlandish escapades. Its just Armstrong all over again and nothing will be done unless someone has the guts to rat him out.
Right on CC. People have very short memories nowadays and Sky are working that angle very well.
 
Re:

dacooley said:
hinault wasn't suggesting it directly, but he's clearly against froome joining the areopagus of cycling legends. :D although, it's way too late and froome is already there even in case he'll finally get his giro win stripped off.
I don't think Froome is there nor will he ever be there. Way too many dark clouds surrounding Sky and Froome.
 
B_Ugli said:
Petrified into silence? Yes and No. For sure the Sky empire can Lawyer/PR up like there is no tomorrow but its interesting that they have never gone after anyone because to do so they would have to prove that allegations were false. This would mean opening up a pandora's box, barristers, cross examination, evidence under oath etc etc. With the CMS they could lie to their hearts content as none of the individuals involved could face punitive measures (unlike lying under oath in a court room).
The burden of proof is the other way round in English law, if Sky sue you for libel/slander/wotev's then you need to demonstrate that you're telling the truth.

brownbobby said:
By this stage in proceedings, there were numerous 'eyes/ears on' witnesesses in the Lance saga.

But when it comes to Froome, all we have still is a mass of purely circumstantial evidence.

In this day and age, where rumours and fake news can spread like wildfire, started by anyone without fear of libel actions, even to the point of influencing US presidential elections, why do we have nothing on Froome?

So, where is our modern day Betsy or Emma, where are the eyewitness accounts of Froome's doping.
As you say, there is an ongoing AAF case against Froome; that in itself is more fact than we ever knew about Armstrong until the Astana medical waste and the shower incident during "Comeback 2.0". [pause for laughter at "Comeback 2.0"]

And Froome is not the same as Armstrong: Lance was a proper world megastar whereas there's virtually no wider public interest in Froome whatsoever, so the risk:reward is totally different if you know something juicy but don't have a smoking gun. Froome is just taking the few remaining gullible cycling fans for the fools they are; Armstrong was essentially taking the mickey out of the cancer community, milking cash from giving people false hope - if you were witness to that there's a far stronger moral obligation to speak out.

Add to that, we were only ever talking about a tiny handful of people with Armstrong. Only Betsy (/Frankie) and Emma really (Greg never had anything more than the basic factual observations that Hinault is making currently about Froome, Hamilton and Landis only joined the fun when they had nothing to lose, same with the 6-month-ban-boys). So rare that there may just not be equivalent people for Froome.
 
Re: Re:

veganrob said:
dacooley said:
hinault wasn't suggesting it directly, but he's clearly against froome joining the areopagus of cycling legends. :D although, it's way too late and froome is already there even in case he'll finally get his giro win stripped off.
I don't think Froome is there nor will he ever be there. Way too many dark clouds surrounding Sky and Froome.
well, in such a case we should expect until sky being exposed and see whether one of 2nd guys will try to reclaim their right for hidden yellow jerseys. I don't think it will happen.

professional sport is terminally sick with doping and justice ends in a children's sandbox where kids play with toy shovels and rakes. further on, money start outlining the outcome. so I consider armstrong and froome legends.
 
Re: Re:

veganrob said:
dacooley said:
hinault wasn't suggesting it directly, but he's clearly against froome joining the areopagus of cycling legends. :D although, it's way too late and froome is already there even in case he'll finally get his giro win stripped off.
I don't think Froome is there nor will he ever be there. Way too many dark clouds surrounding Sky and Froome.
Not fan of Vroome at all but how come? There are definitely dark clouds above him/Sky but those from that legend club are already soaked wet from that dark rain ;)
 
VO2 Max said:
B_Ugli said:
Petrified into silence? Yes and No. For sure the Sky empire can Lawyer/PR up like there is no tomorrow but its interesting that they have never gone after anyone because to do so they would have to prove that allegations were false. This would mean opening up a pandora's box, barristers, cross examination, evidence under oath etc etc. With the CMS they could lie to their hearts content as none of the individuals involved could face punitive measures (unlike lying under oath in a court room).
The burden of proof is the other way round in English law, if Sky sue you for libel/slander/wotev's then you need to demonstrate that you're telling the truth.

brownbobby said:
By this stage in proceedings, there were numerous 'eyes/ears on' witnesesses in the Lance saga.

But when it comes to Froome, all we have still is a mass of purely circumstantial evidence.

In this day and age, where rumours and fake news can spread like wildfire, started by anyone without fear of libel actions, even to the point of influencing US presidential elections, why do we have nothing on Froome?

So, where is our modern day Betsy or Emma, where are the eyewitness accounts of Froome's doping.
As you say, there is an ongoing AAF case against Froome; that in itself is more fact than we ever knew about Armstrong until the Astana medical waste and the shower incident during "Comeback 2.0". [pause for laughter at "Comeback 2.0"]

And Froome is not the same as Armstrong: Lance was a proper world megastar whereas there's virtually no wider public interest in Froome whatsoever, so the risk:reward is totally different if you know something juicy but don't have a smoking gun. Froome is just taking the few remaining gullible cycling fans for the fools they are; Armstrong was essentially taking the mickey out of the cancer community, milking cash from giving people false hope - if you were witness to that there's a far stronger moral obligation to speak out.

Add to that, we were only ever talking about a tiny handful of people with Armstrong. Only Betsy (/Frankie) and Emma really (Greg never had anything more than the basic factual observations that Hinault is making currently about Froome, Hamilton and Landis only joined the fun when they had nothing to lose, same with the 6-month-ban-boys). So rare that there may just not be equivalent people for Froome.
You have to share the bleachers with all sorts of fans, bro. Or ... you could ask for a private box ..
If you think you’d feel sullied. :geek:
 
Re: Re:

glassmoon said:
veganrob said:
dacooley said:
hinault wasn't suggesting it directly, but he's clearly against froome joining the areopagus of cycling legends. :D although, it's way too late and froome is already there even in case he'll finally get his giro win stripped off.
I don't think Froome is there nor will he ever be there. Way too many dark clouds surrounding Sky and Froome.
Not fan of Vroome at all but how come? There are definitely dark clouds above him/Sky but those from that legend club are already soaked wet from that dark rain ;)
I think that because Sky have been exposed as full of *** from their very inception yet still have that arrogant, holier than thou attitude
 
Alpe73 said:
You have to share the bleachers with all sorts of fans, bro. Or ... you could ask for a private box ..
If you think you’d feel sullied. :geek:
Lolz. Enjoying it is different from still believing anything they say. A lot of people really believed Armstrong.

glassmoon said:
Not fan of Vroome at all but how come? There are definitely dark clouds above him/Sky but those from that legend club are already soaked wet from that dark rain ;)
Context is important to how you perceive things. At Sestriere in 1999 they were apparently laughing in the press box, fast-forward to Sestriere in 2018 people were laughing watching it on telly at home.
 
Re: Re:

veganrob said:
glassmoon said:
veganrob said:
dacooley said:
hinault wasn't suggesting it directly, but he's clearly against froome joining the areopagus of cycling legends. :D although, it's way too late and froome is already there even in case he'll finally get his giro win stripped off.
I don't think Froome is there nor will he ever be there. Way too many dark clouds surrounding Sky and Froome.
Not fan of Vroome at all but how come? There are definitely dark clouds above him/Sky but those from that legend club are already soaked wet from that dark rain ;)
I think that because Sky have been exposed as full of **** from their very inception yet still have that arrogant, holier than thou attitude
the talk is about a legend, rather than a people's champion. :p
 
Re: Re:

veganrob said:
glassmoon said:
veganrob said:
dacooley said:
hinault wasn't suggesting it directly, but he's clearly against froome joining the areopagus of cycling legends. :D although, it's way too late and froome is already there even in case he'll finally get his giro win stripped off.
I don't think Froome is there nor will he ever be there. Way too many dark clouds surrounding Sky and Froome.
Not fan of Vroome at all but how come? There are definitely dark clouds above him/Sky but those from that legend club are already soaked wet from that dark rain ;)
I think that because Sky have been exposed as full of **** from their very inception yet still have that arrogant, holier than thou attitude
Recurring theme expressed by quite a few posters over the course of this thread. WTF? Some kind of cultural phenomenon? Politics of envy?
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
thehog said:
Imagine participating in a forum, posting, producing links, offering opinion. Then standing back and telling everyone on the same forum, “what’s up with those guys who post on this forum?” :cool:
Given the frequency with which you do exactly this, imagination is redundant.
Well this doesn’t make any sense. I defend the Clinic at all times, unlike yourself who pretends that you are above it all despite posting in here (a lot) :cool:
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
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Re: Re:

thehog said:
fmk_RoI said:
thehog said:
Imagine participating in a forum, posting, producing links, offering opinion. Then standing back and telling everyone on the same forum, “what’s up with those guys who post on this forum?” :cool:
Given the frequency with which you do exactly this, imagination is redundant.
Well this doesn’t make any sense. I defend the Clinic at all times, unlike yourself who pretends that you are above it all despite posting in here (a lot) :cool:
:D
 
Re: Re:

thehog said:
fmk_RoI said:
thehog said:
Imagine participating in a forum, posting, producing links, offering opinion. Then standing back and telling everyone on the same forum, “what’s up with those guys who post on this forum?” :cool:
Given the frequency with which you do exactly this, imagination is redundant.
Well this doesn’t make any sense. I defend the Clinic at all times, unlike yourself who pretends that you are above it all despite posting in here (a lot) :cool:
Honey, I made a comment about the speed with which some dropped the topic of the most doped ride in the history of doped riding (1869-2018). It was a drop worthy of the Hungarian international cricket team and amused me. You took that as an attack on the hive mind of the Clinic, even though we all agree there is no hive mind (just some co-ordinated fan boy-ery and Sky PR that now includes Rasmussen as one of their official cheerleaders, but that is easily dealt with by the independent thinkers who shut them down) and asked "what's up with those guys who post on this forum." Now we're into stage seven of our standard back and forth (which frequently calls people to ask "what's up with those guys?"). Let's not go to stage nine. Win stage eight if you must with a witty retort that reminds everyone of my fiasco over the 'ASO offered Froome a six month ban" thing. But, please, for the love of God, build a bridge and get over it, whatever it is.
 
DawgsBlog from the 2009 are still up on the EuroSport site, they are an entertaining read :cool:

In his latest blog for Eurosport-Yahoo!, Barloworld's British rider Chris Froome talks about the vibe in Venice and the return of Lance Armstrong and Ivan Basso to grand tour racing.

The streets were full of cycling enthusiasts and people hoping to get a behind-the-scenes look at the participants prior to the 'partenza' of the team time trial.

The vibe in the team is of quiet confidence with Robert Hunter and Mauricio Soler in good form.

It feels good coming into the Giro as underdogs: it is never a comfortable position to be in when people are expecting certain results from the team.

From a personal point of view, I'm hoping my legs will keep me in the select group at the front when the gradient rises, so I can play a supporting role to Soler and possibly even be in contention for the young rider's jersey.

But like with any grand tour almost anything can happen: one day of poor recovery could mean up to half an hour of lost time to the leaders.

It feels great to be part of what I think will be a very unique and special addition to the record books of the Giro D'Italia.

The event is particularly poignant, given that it is the centenary edition, which also marks the return of Lance Armstrong and Ivan Basso to grand tour racing.

Five years ago, when I first started getting into cycling and watching the big events on television, I would watch in awe as Armstrong and Basso battled it out on the relentless mountain passes.

I would have never believed someone back then, if they had told me I'd be suffering in their wake a few years down the line.

I will give you more insight from the Dolomities next week, when the real racing of the Giro begins, and the roads disappear into the clouds!

Click on the link underneath the picture to find out more about Chris Froome and Team Barloworld
https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/giro-d-italia/2008/froome-vibes-from-venice_sto1935006/story.shtml
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
thehog said:
fmk_RoI said:
thehog said:
Imagine participating in a forum, posting, producing links, offering opinion. Then standing back and telling everyone on the same forum, “what’s up with those guys who post on this forum?” :cool:
Given the frequency with which you do exactly this, imagination is redundant.
Well this doesn’t make any sense. I defend the Clinic at all times, unlike yourself who pretends that you are above it all despite posting in here (a lot) :cool:
:D
Its almost a parody :cool:
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
topcat said:
fmk_RoI said:
Valv.Piti said:
I very much agree with Rasmussen that his raid was plausible and within the limits. Had nothing to do with Landis or whatever - I argued that just after what he did after the half the forum moaned that it isn't natural, it was Landis esque etc.

Well, it might very well not be natural, but to go back to Rasmussen, it definitely didn't show that he is on some hardcore stuff the rest of the field isn't. Its pretty even.
Quite by coincidence, since Rasmussen's interview, the whole debate has moved on from that ride. It's now back to past and all the dots that beg to be joined. Funny how thst happened.
You can only say the same thing so many times. A few ppl didn't think the solo ride was that outrageous. A few more ppl think the recovery shown and the 80 km solo was a legendary dope fuelled ride. There isn't really anything more to say about it.
You can only say the same thing so many times, and yet here we are as we've been since it happened, speculating as to what occured in 2011, because there's really so so so much more to say that hasn't been said. Yes. Yes. Of course that's why so many who declared it the most dope fuelled ride in the history of dope fuelled rides have moved on, cause they ran out of things to say about it and remembered they had so so so much more to say about 2011 instead. Yes.
This was precisely the point of my post about the difference between "is it plausible?" and "is it plausible from him?".

Because in terms of raw watts, power put out, and so on, it's not Mayo on the Ventoux, no. But that doesn't mean it's automatically believable, just because it's humanly possible. Like I had with my example of Marcel Kittel doing a 61 minute Ventoux - of course a 61 minute ride up the Ventoux is possible - plenty of riders including some with very good reputations have done that. But a rider of Marcel Kittel's skillset and background doing that would be preposterous (notwithstanding the W/kg required to do it of course would be well out of whack with what we're talking about here, given Kittel's sprinter build. Therefore perhaps the example works better with a smaller, explosive sprinter like, say, Caleb Ewan, whose weight is in line with the likes of Valverde and Landa, but who hasn't shown anything remotely like the durability required to be that far up the field on a climb of that size or scale). At this stage, Chris Froome MkII (post 2011 Vuelta) putting out that kind of power isn't altogether that surprising, in a vacuum, but there are still reasons that Chris Froome MkII putting out that kind of performance on stage 19 of the 2018 Giro d'Italia is altogether surprising, however.

Some of those are short-term - the fact that he'd only shown that kind of form on one previous stage, in a much shorter effort which he paid for the following day. And some of those are long-term, and that is demonstrably including the metamorphosis from Chris Froome MkI to MkII back in 2011. Because there is a further dichotomy, between "is it plausible coming from him?" and "is it plausible coming from him without assistance?" - as I say, little that Chris Froome could do performance-wise would make me genuinely surprised at this stage, but simultaneously there's little that he can do that will make me un-see what I've seen before, which makes his subsequent self-reinvention as a superstar of world cycling difficult to swallow.

Therefore:
"Was it plausible?" - Most likely. The power outputs provided for the limited part of the stage we got originally weren't out of this world, and the likes of Rasmussen - who has been highly critical of Froome many times - has said that it wasn't altogether a performance level that is often derided as extraterrestrial.
"Was it plausible coming from him?" - At particular times, yes. At this particular time, perhaps less so. Prior to his 2011 reinvention and during the first half of the 2012 season, most likely not. In 2018 to date, not really, but the fact he has at various times 2012-17 put out this kind of power does make it less out of the ordinary - it's just that he's never had to race from behind in this kind of manner before. And of course, doing it whilst under investigation and filibustering a potential suspension does colour people's thoughts regarding this as well.
"Was it plausible coming from him without assistance?" - this is absolutely where 2011 is relevant to the debate of his 2018 performances. Because something meant that Chris Froome went, in a short space of time, from a rider being jettisoned from a contract by a team who had set their hearts on winning Grand Tours with a rider with the same passport as him, and being offered to other teams as a domestique, to a rider with the raw power to be a Grand Tour winner. Now, many people using the sport's past as case history and able to employ Occam's Razor came to an almost inescapable conclusion early on about that, but even for those who didn't want to broach that subject, numerous subsequent events about the management and handling of riders at Team Sky have pointed in the same direction. Now, just what that assistance was, or indeed is, remains conjecture. But, even if the ride to Bardonecchia was plausibly within the limits of human capability, we then must make the assumption that Chris Froome is capable of riding up to a level which is at that kind of height, at that point in May 2018, unassisted. That he is one of the best of the best, the most gifted natural athletes, given that we are already talking within a péloton which consists only of the most gifted natural athletes in the sport anyway. And it's harder to buy that if you've seen him ride to a completely nondescript level for a number of years, and explain away improvements with a meandering justification of a perfect storm of illnesses, injuries and diseases, presented in a way that bends around and avoids straight answers more than Dave Brailsford in front of a parliamentary committee.

That's why 2011 is relevant today.
 
Re: Re:

dacooley said:
veganrob said:
glassmoon said:
veganrob said:
dacooley said:
hinault wasn't suggesting it directly, but he's clearly against froome joining the areopagus of cycling legends. :D although, it's way too late and froome is already there even in case he'll finally get his giro win stripped off.
I don't think Froome is there nor will he ever be there. Way too many dark clouds surrounding Sky and Froome.
Not fan of Vroome at all but how come? There are definitely dark clouds above him/Sky but those from that legend club are already soaked wet from that dark rain ;)
I think that because Sky have been exposed as full of **** from their very inception yet still have that arrogant, holier than thou attitude
the talk is about a legend, rather than a people's champion. :p
Isn't it public perception that makes a legend? ;)
 
thehog said:
DawgsBlog from the 2009 are still up on the EuroSport site, they are an entertaining read :cool:

In his latest blog for Eurosport-Yahoo!, Barloworld's British rider Chris Froome talks about the vibe in Venice and the return of Lance Armstrong and Ivan Basso to grand tour racing.

The streets were full of cycling enthusiasts and people hoping to get a behind-the-scenes look at the participants prior to the 'partenza' of the team time trial.

The vibe in the team is of quiet confidence with Robert Hunter and Mauricio Soler in good form.

It feels good coming into the Giro as underdogs: it is never a comfortable position to be in when people are expecting certain results from the team.

From a personal point of view, I'm hoping my legs will keep me in the select group at the front when the gradient rises, so I can play a supporting role to Soler and possibly even be in contention for the young rider's jersey.

But like with any grand tour almost anything can happen: one day of poor recovery could mean up to half an hour of lost time to the leaders.

It feels great to be part of what I think will be a very unique and special addition to the record books of the Giro D'Italia.

The event is particularly poignant, given that it is the centenary edition, which also marks the return of Lance Armstrong and Ivan Basso to grand tour racing.

Five years ago, when I first started getting into cycling and watching the big events on television, I would watch in awe as Armstrong and Basso battled it out on the relentless mountain passes.

I would have never believed someone back then, if they had told me I'd be suffering in their wake a few years down the line.

I will give you more insight from the Dolomities next week, when the real racing of the Giro begins, and the roads disappear into the clouds!

Click on the link underneath the picture to find out more about Chris Froome and Team Barloworld
https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/giro-d-italia/2008/froome-vibes-from-venice_sto1935006/story.shtml
No mention of supporting Basso.

Funny how a few years later, after Lance got outed as the big bad doper of all time, that bit was added into his portrayal of the above in his autobiography, that he cheered against the big bad Arsmtrong instinctively (even if the other rider was Basso who was just another doper and not the big bad)

Though since we are on the subject we can also remember that Froome got that bit totally wrong in his book anyway, claiming to have watched the duel at secondary school despite the fact that he was well past school by the time they faced off.
 
Re: Re:

veganrob said:
dacooley said:
veganrob said:
glassmoon said:
veganrob said:
[quote="
Not fan of Vroome at all but how come? There are definitely dark clouds above him/Sky but those from that legend club are already soaked wet from that dark rain ;)
I think that because Sky have been exposed as full of **** from their very inception yet still have that arrogant, holier than thou attitude
the talk is about a legend, rather than a people's champion. :p
Isn't it public perception that makes a legend? ;)

Sorry man,

With 4 tours hes up there. But so is Indurain and so is Lance (even if they want to hide him)
 
Re: Re:

veganrob said:
glassmoon said:
veganrob said:
dacooley said:
hinault wasn't suggesting it directly, but he's clearly against froome joining the areopagus of cycling legends. :D although, it's way too late and froome is already there even in case he'll finally get his giro win stripped off.
I don't think Froome is there nor will he ever be there. Way too many dark clouds surrounding Sky and Froome.
Not fan of Vroome at all but how come? There are definitely dark clouds above him/Sky but those from that legend club are already soaked wet from that dark rain ;)
I think that because Sky have been exposed as full of **** from their very inception yet still have that arrogant, holier than thou attitude
Imagine if they'd gone the full hog and created a little club for clean teams to ensure credible cycling, how arrogant and holier than thou would they be then?
 
The Hitch said:
thehog said:
DawgsBlog from the 2009 are still up on the EuroSport site, they are an entertaining read :cool:

In his latest blog for Eurosport-Yahoo!, Barloworld's British rider Chris Froome talks about the vibe in Venice and the return of Lance Armstrong and Ivan Basso to grand tour racing.

The streets were full of cycling enthusiasts and people hoping to get a behind-the-scenes look at the participants prior to the 'partenza' of the team time trial.

The vibe in the team is of quiet confidence with Robert Hunter and Mauricio Soler in good form.

It feels good coming into the Giro as underdogs: it is never a comfortable position to be in when people are expecting certain results from the team.

From a personal point of view, I'm hoping my legs will keep me in the select group at the front when the gradient rises, so I can play a supporting role to Soler and possibly even be in contention for the young rider's jersey.

But like with any grand tour almost anything can happen: one day of poor recovery could mean up to half an hour of lost time to the leaders.

It feels great to be part of what I think will be a very unique and special addition to the record books of the Giro D'Italia.

The event is particularly poignant, given that it is the centenary edition, which also marks the return of Lance Armstrong and Ivan Basso to grand tour racing.

Five years ago, when I first started getting into cycling and watching the big events on television, I would watch in awe as Armstrong and Basso battled it out on the relentless mountain passes.

I would have never believed someone back then, if they had told me I'd be suffering in their wake a few years down the line.

I will give you more insight from the Dolomities next week, when the real racing of the Giro begins, and the roads disappear into the clouds!

Click on the link underneath the picture to find out more about Chris Froome and Team Barloworld
https://www.eurosport.com/cycling/giro-d-italia/2008/froome-vibes-from-venice_sto1935006/story.shtml
No mention of supporting Basso.

Funny how a few years later, after Lance got outed as the big bad doper of all time, that bit was added into his portrayal of the above in his autobiography, that he cheered against the big bad Arsmtrong instinctively (even if the other rider was Basso who was just another doper and not the big bad)

Though since we are on the subject we can also remember that Froome got that bit totally wrong in his book anyway, claiming to have watched the duel at secondary school despite the fact that he was well past school by the time they faced off.
Yes and years later as told in Froome’s book, Basso walked up to Porte and Froome to ask them what they use in their protein shake, lol! :lol:
 
When his Barloworld teammate Moises Duenas tested positive for EPO during the 2008 TDF, and drugs were found in his room, Froome had this to say:

"The guy is facing a jail sentence and I hope that's what he gets," he said. "To have something like that so close to home was unbelievable - I never saw it coming. You just feel that you've been cheated by one of your team-mates.”
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/jul/28/cycling.tourdefrance

No wonder he’s fighting the salbutamol positive so hard. If evidence ever emerged that he took it orally, this quote could come back to haunt him. I don’t think even LA ever said a rider who doped should go to jail?
 

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