Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[red_flanders]

Good (old) article on Froome's Salbutamol nonsense: https://citsb.com/2017/12/16/the-truth-behind-chris-froomes-doping/

In particular I liked the attack on the twisted logic in the arguments.

"In other words, the fact that Salbutamol as an inhalant can alleviate asthma does not controvert the fact that it also enhances weight loss and muscle retention in large doses when injected or taken orally. In fact, it does both, and the fact that Chris Froome’s Salbutamol level was double the allowed amount should prove to any reasonable person that he was injecting it or taking it orally in order to benefit from its performance-enhancing qualities of weight loss and muscle retention."

The author also gets into the nonsense around Froome's claims of being asthmatic, but that's all been covered here quite well. But this is good again:

"Again, to sum up:

1. Road racers go faster when they lose weight and maintain muscle.
2. Salbutamol in large doses lets you lose weight and maintain muscle, and is legal in small doses.
3. Chris Froome has suddenly tested positive for a large dose of Salbutamol.
4. Chris Froome claims he uses Salbutamol because he’s an asthmatic.

Did you catch that? No. 4 is entirely compatible with No. 2, it just sounds somehow like a denial that he was doping.

The misdirection is quite effective because it takes our eyes off the performance enhancing effects of Salbutamol when taken intravenously or orally, and focuses instead on its legitimate and non-performance-enhancing effect as an inhalant for asthmatics. And by the way, we’re reminded, Chris Froome has always been an asthmatic; suffered terribly all his life from it, in fact.

Before we pick up on the hard-to-swallow story about Froome’s asthma, though, let’s remember that large doses of Salbutamol help you lose weight and keep muscle and therefore go faster."

 

[Scarponi]

Just on his current form, even if he went full 90s program for argument sake do you think he would still struggle ? Or back to the top of the pack ?

 

[markene2]

Just on his current form, even if he went full 90s program for argument sake do you think he would still struggle ? Or back to the top of the pack ?

No, not even if he uses his trusty motordoping that sky introduced the season after his Vuelta breakthrough. Now everyone else is also on the program plus "mechanical assistance". Its to late for the dawg, thats why you see the new record times being set, all "mechanical assistance" pluss some extra blood bags

 

[Rackham]

Just on his current form, even if he went full 90s program for argument sake do you think he would still struggle ? Or back to the top of the pack ?

I suppose we can look at Lance as a sure fire real life living example, i.e. he was a doper who came out of retirement, had a 'miraculous' TdF 2009 (all things considered that was a crazy performance, although he did almost get caught when he dodged a UCI dope test before the Tour) but then in 2010 everything went to sh*t for him. No amount of juicing it could save his tired old bulky huge frame from failing in July. So he's an example of an old rider who did dope like "the 1990's" but couldn't do it on the road anymore.

With regards to Froome in this current peloton I'd bet my house he juiced like the good old days on the Alpe d'Huez stage last year but age catches up with everyone & diminishing returns kicks in, i.e. what worked 10 years ago would no longer have the same benefits because his body is older & slower. So he might still have a breakaway in his legs in a WT stage (like a TdF stage) but no amount of blood bags, EPO, testosterone, salbutamol or whatnot would save him in 2023. He's done.

He should have retired with some dignity.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I suppose we can look at Lance as a sure fire real life living example, i.e. he was a doper who came out of retirement, had a 'miraculous' TdF 2009 (all things considered that was a crazy performance, although he did almost get caught when he dodged a UCI dope test before the Tour) but then in 2010 everything went to sh*t for him. No amount of juicing it could save his tired old bulky huge frame from failing in July. So he's an example of an old rider who did dope like "the 1990's" but couldn't do it on the road anymore.

With regards to Froome in this current peloton I'd bet my house he juiced like the good old days on the Alpe d'Huez stage last year but age catches up with everyone & diminishing returns kicks in, i.e. what worked 10 years ago would no longer have the same benefits because his body is older & slower. So he might still have a breakaway in his legs in a WT stage (like a TdF stage) but no amount of blood bags, EPO, testosterone, salbutamol or whatnot would save him in 2023. He's done.

He should have retired with some dignity.

Chris is riding paniagua to protect his career and earings. If he used that baked soda that JV guys have Teddy and Jonas would race for 2nd in July.

 

[Rackham]

Chris is riding paniagua to protect his career and earings. If he used that baked soda that JV guys have Teddy and Jonas would race for 2nd in July.

I heard Jonas doesn't even use the baked soda. In fact he doesn't even feed, i.e. he rides on solar energy. Hence why he's a bit useless in March but he turns into a solar powered generator in July.

Chris can't compete against that, i.e. jogging up the Ventoux doesn't generate anywhere near the same level of nuclear fusion watts.

 

[Parker]

let’s remember that large doses of Salbutamol help you lose weight and keep muscle and therefore go faster."

The post was long so I'll isolale this bit which is apparently the motive.

1. Why would anyone in the third week of a Grand Tour be worried about weight loss? He'd also done the Olympics and the Tour before. Losing weight would not have been a problem

2. In reaction to point 1 there will be a theory about contaminated blood bags. At the time someone calculated that to get the readings that he did from a blood transfusion transfering to urine he would have had to take tens of kilos of sambutabol.

3. The other option. It was a badly drafted rule based on Ventolin's guidelines than anything doping. And the the designer of the test says it's not fit for purpose.

Cling away Red, cling away.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Exactly why is a 25 year old with problems hampering him earlier in his career, bursting onto the field once he got it together, (like others around his age have done in the past) seen as the biggest fraud in history, whereas a 30 year old who could do absolutely nothing until he almost podiumed the tour and has since learned to tt and climb better than anyone else in the world, seen as the possible clean guy on sky.

Secondly we all know here that hundreds of riders have been doping over the years, most of our champions have done so, froome gets so much hatred on here, but he is not really any different to the others.

Wiggins meanwhile is a total **** who thinks he is gods gift to cycling, runs his mouth about anyone he feels like, throws enormous tantrums when people dont see him in as high a light as he sees himself, and has began to follow the Armstrong method of bullying people.

Attack Froome all you want but please people realize that it is Wiggins not Froome who is the big bad.

2012 seems so long ago doesn't it

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

tired old bulky huge frame

You couldn’t come up with a fifth adjective?

The post was long so I'll isolale this bit which is apparently the motive.

1. Why would anyone in the third week of a Grand Tour be worried about weight loss? He'd also done the Olympics and the Tour before. Losing weight would not have been a problem

2. In reaction to point 1 there will be a theory about contaminated blood bags. At the time someone calculated that to get the readings that he did from a blood transfusion transfering to urine he would have had to take tens of kilos of sambutabol.

3. The other option. It was a badly drafted rule based on Ventolin's guidelines than anything doping. And the the designer of the test says it's not fit for purpose.

Cling away Red, cling away.

Thank you for a strong defense of Contador’s 8th and 9th GT.

 

[Rackham]

You couldn’t come up with a fifth adjective?

How about no? He had a tired old bulky huge frame. Feel free to add one (or retract a couple yourself), i.e. I'm sure L.A. really won't mind either way.

Lance had enormous shoulders, i.e. something I believe was exacerbated by his extensive swimming when he was a kid. By his late 30's after coming out of retirement he looked a lot, lot bigger than he did in his cycling prime (1999, 2000, 2001, 2002).

There was just no way in any universe a juiced Lance in 2009 could compete with Contador & 2010 marked the end of the line. Froome also cannot ever compete against the top riders of this era, I mean hell, he can't even compete at all at the moment. He just rides... & finishes. That's as much as he's capable of.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

How about no? He had a tired old bulky huge frame. Feel free to add one (or retract a couple yourself), i.e. I'm sure L.A. really won't mind either way.

Lance had enormous shoulders, i.e. something I believe was exacerbated by his extensive swimming when he was a kid. By his late 30's after coming out of retirement he looked a lot, lot bigger than he did in his cycling prime (1999, 2000, 2001, 2002).

There was just no way in any universe a juiced Lance in 2009 could compete with Contador & 2010 marked the end of the line. Froome also cannot ever compete against the top riders of this era, I mean hell, he can't even compete at all at the moment. He just rides... & finishes. That's as much as he's capable of.

Lol. Should have put a smiley face. Just found it amusing.

 

[Rackham]

Lol. Should have put a smiley face. Just found it amusing.

Yeah, sorry I might have come across as defensive over what was a silly facetious sentence anyway. I just never know when someone might 'take offense' at some comment relating to the physical aspect of a rider, even Voldemort himself aka Lance freaking Armstrong.

I mean he was huge. It's always funny (to me) re-watching some of the archive footage & looking at his physical frame versus Contador for example. I mean he can call El Pistolero a "punk" as much as he wants but what did he expect in 2009? Delusion flowed through his veins more than EPO did.

I think Froomey shares some of that delusion as well (with a touch more cynicism IMO, i.e. contrary to Lance, I don't think Froome believes for one minute he can even win anymore, i.e. he's just in it for the money).

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I mean he was huge. It's always funny (to me) re-watching some of the archive footage & looking at his physical frame versus Contador for example. I mean he can call El Pistolero a "punk" as much as he wants but what did he expect in 2009? Delusion flowed through his veins more than EPO did.

Armstrong, despite being a few kilos over 70 kg, was one of the best and most explosive climbers in Tour history. For power monsters like Indurain, Armstrong and Ullrich watts were more important than mass:

 

[Rackham]

Armstrong, despite being a few kilos over 70 kg, was one of the best and most explosive climbers in Tour history. For power monsters like Indurain, Armstrong and Ullrich watts were more important than mass:

Don't get me wrong, i.e. Armstrong in his prime as a climber was very impressive. The 2001 Alpe D'Huez massacre stands out (obviously) but he was also a Pogacar of sorts of his era in the sense he loved racing in wet weather & cold. Hautacam 2000 was another "what the f am I even watching" Lance special. His modus operandi in his TdF victories was always "kill everyone on the first summit finish". The Tour was also more classical in its route design back then, with the Alps & Pyrenees usually on the weekends, with maybe the Ventoux between them.

But 2009 Lance looked much bulkier than he was 10 years earlier. I don't know what he'd been doing in his retirement years but he was one big dude when he came back.

 

[Squire]

But 2009 Lance looked much bulkier than he was 10 years earlier. I don't know what he'd been doing in his retirement years but he was one big dude when he came back.

He had, among other things, been making workout videos for upper body muscle mass. In another throwback to 2012, forum user Checkmypecs would have been proud.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

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The dude looks like he’s training for a marvel movie, not the TdF.

 

[Parker]

You couldn’t come up with a fifth adjective?

Thank you for a strong defense of Contador’s 8th and 9th GT.

You have a point and I'm not comfortable calling him a doper on the basis of that test. However, according to WADA rules he was rightly disqualified. And Froome's would never have stood up at CAS, as it was lousy legislation, hence the dropping of charges. It's a legal matter not a moral one. And they both used the same lawyer.

 

[red_flanders]

The post was long so I'll isolale this bit which is apparently the motive.

1. Why would anyone in the third week of a Grand Tour be worried about weight loss? He'd also done the Olympics and the Tour before. Losing weight would not have been a problem

Well you conveniently ignore the "increase muscle mass" (read as "recovery") part, didn't you? He'd had a very bad day the day before getting popped. Recovery was paramount. Amazingly he did recover. Obviously very difficult to do during a Grand Tour...sans assistance.

2. In reaction to point 1 there will be a theory about contaminated blood bags. At the time someone calculated that to get the readings that he did from a blood transfusion transfering to urine he would have had to take tens of kilos of sambutabol.

After I got done laughing about "Someone calculated" that, I got another one from you arguing against something no one was asserting.

What was suggested is that he took a massive oral or injected dose. Which fits the need and explains perfectly the huge amount in the positive test. So in a very comical way you're right...I guess...it does seem...unlikely that this was from a transfusion. To say the least.

3. The other option. It was a badly drafted rule based on Ventolin's guidelines than anything doping. And the the designer of the test says it's not fit for purpose.

Cling away Red, cling away.

So your retort includes weight loss, blood bags, and Ventolin. Gotcha.

I enjoyed the laughs reading this.

 

[red_flanders]

Don't get me wrong, i.e. Armstrong in his prime as a climber was very impressive. The 2001 Alpe D'Huez massacre stands out (obviously) but he was also a Pogacar of sorts of his era in the sense he loved racing in wet weather & cold. Hautacam 2000 was another "what the f am I even watching" Lance special. His modus operandi in his TdF victories was always "kill everyone on the first summit finish". The Tour was also more classical in its route design back then, with the Alps & Pyrenees usually on the weekends, with maybe the Ventoux between them.

Hautacam for me was peak Lance comedy. But at the same time, mentally that guy was just...nails. He didn't just crush everyone on the bike, but before the races even started. He's a weirdly complex douchebag, even with all the horrible things he did to folks, I find myself missing his will to win. Evenepoel is the closest I've seen,

 

[Rackham]

Hautacam for me was peak Lance comedy. But at the same time, mentally that guy was just...nails. He didn't just crush everyone on the bike, but before the races even started. He's a weirdly complex douchebag, even with all the horrible things he did to folks, I find myself missing his will to win. Evenepoel is the closest I've seen,

He's not a complete assh*le either, i.e. he has helped cancer sufferers as well. I mean that's a fact. Maybe it was a sick shield at one point? But for the people who did benefit from Livestrong the how & why about Lance Armstrong's performance on a bike was a moot point.

Big ego though & his comeback was asinine to a comical degree. He got his comeuppance... & then someone told him to invest in Uber & he was saved again.

 

[Andy schleck]

How about no? He had a tired old bulky huge frame. Feel free to add one (or retract a couple yourself), i.e. I'm sure L.A. really won't mind either way.

Lance had enormous shoulders, i.e. something I believe was exacerbated by his extensive swimming when he was a kid. By his late 30's after coming out of retirement he looked a lot, lot bigger than he did in his cycling prime (1999, 2000, 2001, 2002).

There was just no way in any universe a juiced Lance in 2009 could compete with Contador & 2010 marked the end of the line. Froome also cannot ever compete against the top riders of this era, I mean hell, he can't even compete at all at the moment. He just rides... & finishes. That's as much as he's capable of.

It doesn't even make sense to compare froome, contador or nibali with this era of riders.
If you put those riders in their peak shape with 26/28 years in 2023, they would do more watts than they did in their past.

It's like saying lemond couldn't be competitive against this young riders. Of course he would. Lemond in his prime in 2023 would do more watts than in the end of 80s.

Bardet did better watts in 2021 and 2022 than he was doing in 2016/2017, thomas the same, do you think froome without the crash, even with 35/36 years wouldn't do more watts than he did during 2015/2018? Of course he would more watts.

 

[zlev11]

I suppose we can look at Lance as a sure fire real life living example, i.e. he was a doper who came out of retirement, had a 'miraculous' TdF 2009 (all things considered that was a crazy performance, although he did almost get caught when he dodged a UCI dope test before the Tour) but then in 2010 everything went to sh*t for him. No amount of juicing it could save his tired old bulky huge frame from failing in July. So he's an example of an old rider who did dope like "the 1990's" but couldn't do it on the road anymore.

this is fake news. in 2010 he almost won Tour de Suisse and then beat Contador in the Tour prologue. he had a badly timed puncture on the cobbled stage and at that point I think he abandoned ship with any plan of doping during that Tour (if not, then he definitely did after he crashed on the first Alps stage). i think without the Landis allegations on his mind that year we may have seen Lance win that Tour especially with Contador clearly not at the same level as he was in 2009. he hated Contador more than anyone he ever raced against and he was on the full Ferrari program again.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

this is fake news. in 2010 he almost won Tour de Suisse and then beat Contador in the Tour prologue. he had a badly timed puncture on the cobbled stage and at that point I think he abandoned ship with any plan of doping during that Tour (if not, then he definitely did after he crashed on the first Alps stage). i think without the Landis allegations on his mind that year we may have seen Lance win that Tour especially with Contador clearly not at the same level as he was in 2009. he hated Contador more than anyone he ever raced against and he was on the full Ferrari program again.

Has there ever been a clear answer about why he loathed Contador so much to this day? Just because Contador beat him? Is it really that simple?

 

[zlev11]

Has there ever been a clear answer about why he loathed Contador so much to this day? Just because Contador beat him? Is it really that simple?

pretty much. Lance thinks because he was ahead of him before the mountains in 2009 that Contador should've worked for him instead of attacking.

 

[red_flanders]

Has there ever been a clear answer about why he loathed Contador so much to this day? Just because Contador beat him? Is it really that simple?

Contador represented the end of Lance's control and dominance, over the team, the peloton, the media, and the Tour. That was more than enough for a control freak, egomaniac, and narcissist like Armstrong.

Lance couldn't cower him. Contador reacted to Lance with more a passive-aggressive approach than either fearing him or directly confronting him. He had no idea how to deal with it. Maddening to someone like Lance. Couldn't even respect him after time. Still seething about it.