Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[Saint Unix]

Re: Re:

And NO ONE will disagree. No one. It will be *crickets*

Yep. That's why the Sky threads are miles long and the others are just sort of there.

Scenario 1:
Clinic: "Holy hell, Froome just put a minute into Quintana. Doping for sure!"
Select few: "Nuh-uh!"
Clinic: "Yuh-uh!"
Select few: "Nuh-uh!"
... until the Earth falls apart.

Scenario 2:
Clinic: "Holy hell, Quintana just put a minute into Uran! Doping for sure!"
Rest of Clinic: "Yep."

No lengthy discussion has ever been born out of agreement.

 

[samhocking]

So the difference is, everyone else is maintaining omerta and only saying they are riding clean when asked, yet Team Sky say they are riding clean before they are asked so are obliged to release data to prove it?

In the vastly illogical World of the clinic, saying you're riding clean when asked is fine, but saying you're riding clean when not asked is mightily suspicious and demand threads at least several 1000 pages long of looping discussion going nowhere?

 

[Kender]

Does watts/Kg take into account the weight of the bike and biddons onboard?

 

[gazr99]

Re:

Does watts/Kg take into account the weight of the bike and biddons onboard?

Not sure but doubt it as you would presume the bikes would be the minimum weight of 6.8kg and the bidons wouldn't be on the bike all the way

 

[saganftw]

Re:

So the difference is everyone else is maintaining omerta and only saying they are riding clean when asked, yet Team Sky say they are riding clean before they are asked.

In the vastly illogical World of the clinic, saying you're riding clean when asked is fine, but saying you're riding clean when not asked is mightily suspicious and demand threads at least several 1000 pages long of looping discussion going nowhere?

do you know the joke?

Policeman asks a guy: "where were you last night?",guy answers:"i didnt kill him".

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

OK, simply any teams release data for the climbs where their riders are gaining +1:30 in over 3 days, 1:00 in two days and 0:30 in one day. This is what seems to being asked of Froome and Sky this year. It puts what's being asked for into context perfectly. Obvious 4 days in Alps, so if a rider gains 2:00 the same needs to apply, just to catch the really dodgy ones!

Trust me, if Quintana or Contador end up out-Frooming Froome the Clinic will be the first place that calls foul play.

You can see how people especially newcomers like myself struggle to believe that.

And you can probably see why more frequent members like myself struggle to believe that

 

[Pulp]

Re: Re:

OK, simply any teams release data for the climbs where their riders are gaining +1:30 in over 3 days, 1:00 in two days and 0:30 in one day. This is what seems to being asked of Froome and Sky this year. It puts what's being asked for into context perfectly. Obvious 4 days in Alps, so if a rider gains 2:00 the same needs to apply, just to catch the really dodgy ones!

Trust me, if Quintana or Contador end up out-Frooming Froome the Clinic will be the first place that calls foul play.

You can see how people especially newcomers like myself struggle to believe that.

The only other current rider until about 20/30 minutes ago that wasn't on Team Sky but was on the first page of the clinic is Nibali. Contador has just gone up and that's only because he said he doesn't mind sharing his data

I would consider myself less likely to scream dope than maybe 95% of the people I`ve seen in the clinic. Still, I think, the reason that the focus is now on Sky is that Froome has done an incredible climb, bordering on whats physically possible, while two of his team mates (in many ways Richie Porte`s climb was just as impressive considering he lead the train, and still, for some reason recouped and passed Quintana, while Thomas effortlessly and surprisingly for many sat on Valverde`s wheel...) So the 3 most "impressive" efforts so far has all come from Sky and Froome is the main dog. That combined with them now coming off as massaging the data from Froome`s climb and even the fact that no other riders have really done anything to scream doping.. Well the storm is set for Sky right now.. During the Giro it was Astana.

What we can quite safely say though is that Froome quite certainly was climbing at 6,1W/kg ish and that Sky seems to think he weigh more than he possibly could. Well known "pseudoscientist" guys like Tucker don`t say what Froome did is outside the realm of possible for a clean rider, but the lack of transparency & strange data makes things smell fishy.. Which it does...

Coming from a guy that thought Froome was clean before the tour, now I`m not so sure. I still want to give him the benefit of doubt. There is doubt though.

 

[Saint Unix]

Re:

Does watts/Kg take into account the weight of the bike and biddons onboard?

No, but all bikes are almost without question 6,8kg as per UCI rulings. It'd be idiocy to go a gram over that weight.

I assume every rider brings no more than one full bidon for a 40 minute climb. The maximum difference would be 500g, give or take, and the benefit of having cold liquid with you on a scorching day like PSM would make up for it.

In other words, the extra weight is pretty much the same for every rider.

 

[Irondan]

Re:

Does watts/Kg take into account the weight of the bike and biddons onboard?

Only if you want to get down to 5.8 w/kg...

I'm just kidding. No, it wouldn't include the bike or bidon afik.

 

[keeponrollin]

Re: Re:

Is there a recording of the kimmage interview?

https://soundcloud.com/offtheball/paul-kimmage-on-chris-froome-team-sky-and-the-2015-tour-de-france

Bump !

Seriously folks, clear the wax out of your ears & listen to this podcast !

I've been a fan of PK's writing from back when he was still racing; he says so much with so few words, & he actually cares about the sport, & he's a fan first, & everything else comes after that.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

So the difference is, everyone else is maintaining omerta and only saying they are riding clean when asked, yet Team Sky say they are riding clean before they are asked so are obliged to release data to prove it?

In the vastly illogical World of the clinic, saying you're riding clean when asked is fine, but saying you're riding clean when not asked is mightily suspicious and demand threads at least several 1000 pages long of looping discussion going nowhere?

After the extraordinary weird maths you were offering in the Thomas thread, do you really think you are in a position to lecture people about logic?

 

[BYOP88]

Re: Re:

OK, simply any teams release data for the climbs where their riders are gaining +1:30 in over 3 days, 1:00 in two days and 0:30 in one day. This is what seems to being asked of Froome and Sky this year. It puts what's being asked for into context perfectly. Obvious 4 days in Alps, so if a rider gains 2:00 the same needs to apply, just to catch the really dodgy ones!

Trust me, if Quintana or Contador end up out-Frooming Froome the Clinic will be the first place that calls foul play.

You can see how people especially newcomers like myself struggle to believe that.

The only other current rider until about 20/30 minutes ago that wasn't on Team Sky but was on the first page of the clinic is Nibali. Contador has just gone up and that's only because he said he doesn't mind sharing his data

Has there been anything of note about these riders?
It's simple - you can start a discussion about whether there riders are doping - but it would be a very one-sided discussion. No one believes these riders.
If Contador drops Froome and takes 1 minute on him, by all means, start a discussion. I don't think anyone will disagree that he is doping though.

Edit: by the way, several years ago there was plenty of discussion about Contador. During the Giro there was a lot of talk about Astana. During the spring Katusha was discussed a lot.

Piet they don't want facts, they just want you to admit you hate Sky/Britain/The Queen etc etc. Stop being a doubter and support these clean, honest hardworking cyclists.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

Does watts/Kg take into account the weight of the bike and biddons onboard?

Not sure but doubt it as you would presume the bikes would be the minimum weight of 6.8kg and the bidons wouldn't be on the bike all the way

But the riders would be taking in at least 1 bidon of fluid adding 700 grams in rider weight an hour. And sweating out a similar amount. Plus likely taking a piss at some point. So on any given day rider weight should fluctuate at least +/- 1kg (probably much more on a hot day). Since dehydration could absolutely kill you (or at the very least put a serious damper on performance), my guess is that you'll be aiming at having taken in at least 1L (1kg) extra of fluids vs. training on a balmy day.

 

[samhocking]

Well I don't hear Quintana's, Contador's or Nibalis team saying they are riding clean! Oh wait, now that would be hypocritical looking at each of their teams history! I can see why Sky are one of the only teams who can say they are riding clean because they are the only team without History lol!

 

[gazr99]

Re: Re:

Does watts/Kg take into account the weight of the bike and biddons onboard?

Not sure but doubt it as you would presume the bikes would be the minimum weight of 6.8kg and the bidons wouldn't be on the bike all the way

But the riders would be taking in at least 1 bidon of fluid adding 700 grams in rider weight an hour. And sweating out a similar amount. Plus likely taking a piss at some point. So on any given day rider weight should fluctuate at least +/- 1kg (probably much more on a hot day). Since dehydration could absolutely kill you (or at the very least put a serious damper on performance), my guess is that you'll be aiming at having taken in at least 1L (1kg) extra of fluids vs. training on a balmy day.

During the race yes but w/kg is used primarily for climbs in particular mountain top finishes, where as the racing heats up riders will be holding it in and getting rid of bidons

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Piet they don't want facts, they just want you to admit you hate Sky/Britain/The Queen etc etc. Stop being a doubter and support these clean, honest hardworking cyclists.

Well if you've already deduced everyone else is already guilty of doping, what's taking you so long to sort Froome and Sky out? The Contador & Nibali thread didn't seem quite as protracted?

 

[SeriousSam]

Re:

Well I don't hear Quintana's, Contador's or Nibalis team saying they are riding clean! Oh wait, now that would be hypocritical looking at each of their teams history! I can see why Sky are one of the only teams who can say they are riding clean because they are the only team without History lol!

Imagine I founded a new team now. Sadly, by virtue of it being 2015, I couldn't directly partake in the glorious history of doping. The next best thing I could do to connect to it anyway is probably to hire Geert Leinders.

 

[BYOP88]

Re: Re:

Piet they don't want facts, they just want you to admit you hate Sky/Britain/The Queen etc etc. Stop being a doubter and support these clean, honest hardworking cyclists.

Well if you've already deduced everyone else is already guilty of doping, what's taking you so long to sort Froome and Sky out? The Contador & Nibali thread didn't seem quite as protracted?

I'm way too lazy and it's baseball season.

 

[samhocking]

You're right. Without Geert Leinders Team Sky would be scraping top 10 of the Pearl Izumi Tour Series!

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

During the race yes but w/kg is used primarily for climbs in particular mountain top finishes, where as the racing heats up riders will be holding it in and getting rid of bidons

Ok, sorry to repeat myself, but I feel I'm not making myself understood. If over a race you drink 6 bidons of fluids and you've only excreted 3 of them, you'd be weighing an additional 2.1 kg at the end. Conversely if you only took in 4 bidons but you've excreted (through sweat/urination) 5 of them, you'd weigh 700g less but would probably perform worse as you'd likely be a bit dehydrated.

 

[Saint Unix]

Re:

Well I don't hear Quintana's, Contador's or Nibalis team saying they are riding clean! Oh wait, now that would be hypocritical looking at each of their teams history! I can see why Sky are one of the only teams who can say they are riding clean because they are the only team without History lol!

Apart from their history of hiring Leinders, Rogers, De Jongh, Knaven, Julich, Arvesen and others with plenty of history. And then there's the Henao case and of course JTL.

A lot of their riders have come from some seriously sketchy teams too. I seem to recall that Barloworld reeked of fish back in the day, Lopez and Kiri came from Movistar, Eisel rode for T-Mobile, Porte for CSC, Viviani came from Liquigas and Knees from Milram. Pate and Wiggins came from Garmin that has employed more former dopers than any other team in the peloton. The latest is Landa, one of the most suspicious from this year's Giro, joining from Clinic favorites Astana.

Lots of history if you connect the dots.

 

[gazr99]

Re: Re:

During the race yes but w/kg is used primarily for climbs in particular mountain top finishes, where as the racing heats up riders will be holding it in and getting rid of bidons

Ok, sorry to repeat myself, but I feel I'm not making myself understood. If over a race you drink 6 bidons of fluids and you've only excreted 3 of them, you'd be weighing an additional 2.1 kg at the end. Conversely if you only took in 4 bidons but you've excreted (through sweat/urination) 5 of them, you'd weigh 700g less but would probably perform worse as you'd likely be a bit dehydrated.

Ok got you. Think that's an almost impossible task to calculate, so can't it see it being accounted for, could be wrong though

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Well I don't hear Quintana's, Contador's or Nibalis team saying they are riding clean! Oh wait, now that would be hypocritical looking at each of their teams history! I can see why Sky are one of the only teams who can say they are riding clean because they are the only team without History lol!

Apart from their history of hiring Leinders, Rogers, De Jongh, Knaven, Julich, Arvesen and others with plenty of history. And then there's the Henao case and of course JTL.

A lot of their riders have come from some seriously sketchy teams too. I seem to recall that Barloworld reeked of fish back in the day, Lopez and Kiri came from Movistar, Eisel rode for T-Mobile, Porte for CSC, Viviani came from Liquigas and Knees from Milram. Pate and Wiggins came from Garmin that has employed more former dopers than any other team in the peloton. The latest is Landa, one of the most suspicious from this year's Giro, joining from Clinic favorites Astana.

Lots of history if you connect the dots.

The issue with this view, is every other team has similar dots with similar staff and riders with identical history. Why would a new British team with no GT expperience joining up these same dots outperform a traditional team with 10-20 years experience and multiple GT wins between then? This is where the Leinders case does'nt make sense. Rabobank was a great team with Leinders, but they weren't Postal were they?

 

[saganftw]

nobody is suggesting that only SKY is doping and the rest of the peloton is clean...the majority thinks SKY has something way more advanced than rest of the peloton,hence the transformations and "diseases" and tailwind memes

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

Well I don't hear Quintana's, Contador's or Nibalis team saying they are riding clean! Oh wait, now that would be hypocritical looking at each of their teams history! I can see why Sky are one of the only teams who can say they are riding clean because they are the only team without History lol!

Apart from their history of hiring Leinders, Rogers, De Jongh, Knaven, Julich, Arvesen and others with plenty of history. And then there's the Henao case and of course JTL.

A lot of their riders have come from some seriously sketchy teams too. I seem to recall that Barloworld reeked of fish back in the day, Lopez and Kiri came from Movistar, Eisel rode for T-Mobile, Porte for CSC, Viviani came from Liquigas and Knees from Milram. Pate and Wiggins came from Garmin that has employed more former dopers than any other team in the peloton. The latest is Landa, one of the most suspicious from this year's Giro, joining from Clinic favorites Astana.

Lots of history if you connect the dots.

If they develop riders then they are suspicious. If they buy good ones from a dirty team (and all teams are dirty) even more so. So the only way they could be clean is if they sucked. But then they'd be Cannondale-Garmin. Who are also dirty