Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

So basically your saying don't read british newspapers or listen to british sports commentary. Turn on the tv but switch off the sound. Watch cycling, but diconnect your brain. Become illiterate.

The bottom line is:
If you had to create the ultmate GT rider, he would be 99.99% resembling a guy named Christopher Froome.

And its upto you what you choose to ignore, like some here choose to ignore that other riders are dopers too and point fingers at just Froome because it suits their whims and fancies.

Also, about Contador and others doing well in the Junior circuit, we cant say when they started doping. 15, 16, 17, 18? Who knows? What we know is, back then in the European scene Juniors did drugs.(David Milar talks about it in his book). British were very new to the sport. And Froome is a Kenyan pretty much and didnt have the luxury knowing about drugs as much as the European kids. He had the usual clean phase before finally taking drugs like everybody has in their life. In cycling, a pro always reaches that fork on his path: to do it or not to do it.

He's doing nothing which others arent. He deserves his victories just like Lance does. Lance did everything better than his competition. Tyler Hamilton agrees that Lance beat him fair and square at the Tour.
Im sure Quintana does too.

it's the balance of probabilities...did/does every top GT rider cane drugs since they were 15 vs did one gangly intermediate pro about to lose his ride start taking an industrial dose to suddenly transform? (cue Steve Cram's quote)

you know where the smart money would go on that one....

Who in here is denying that Froome didnt take drugs then?

All the young boys who dreamt of becoming pros and getting a pro contract depended on how you responded to drugs. Every boy came at that crossroad; some took them and became the best, some took them but still couldn be the best and some didnt take them and went on about their life doing something else.

All comes down to how much that person wants it.
It is a balance of probabilities after all.

Nobody is clean. Period.

 

[pastronef]

Re:

So basically your saying don't read british newspapers or listen to british sports commentary. Turn on the tv but switch off the sound. Watch cycling, but diconnect your brain. Become illiterate.

yes
here in Italy I DONT READ any newspaper, Gazzetta, Tuttosport, GAzzetta Website etc
I dont cheer for Nibali/Aru but I understand the Rai tv commentatirs going bezerk when they win, it´s normal

I can ignor many things, maybe people are too much focused on Sky/Froome, they just wait for newspapers/commentators to say somenthing so they can shout "hey wtf you hear what thye say, the biased fuckers!" etc etc

enjoy the racing ffs dont waste time in getting angry and pissed at every sky relalted line/word/action/breath

there are many other riders racing and to enjoy

 

[Lyon]

The five steps of a Sky/BC supporters road towards reality:

1. They are doing it clean. It wasn't possible before but thanks to controls being in place, now it is. About time too! Go Sky!
2. Ok, maybe they have some secret weapon the others don't but it is something that is not yet illegal.
3. There is a possibility that Froome is on something illegal but there is no team-wide doping.
4. Given the history of the sport, and that nothing seems to have changed, there is a chance the team is in on it.
5. Sure they do drugs but so do all the others, so it is a level playing field. Fkuc the hypocrites! Go Sky!

---

6. There is a possibility that they are doing more than others.
7. I'm outta here...

 

[MacBAir]

The five steps of a Sky/BC supporters road towards reality:

1. They are doing it clean. It wasn't possible before but thanks to controls being in place, now it is. About time too! Go Sky!
2. Ok, maybe they have some secret weapon the others don't but it is something that is not yet illegal.
3. There is a possibility that Froome is on something illegal but there is no team-wide doping.
4. Given the history of the sport, and that nothing seems to have changed, there is a chance the team is in on it.
5. Sure they do drugs but so do all the others, so it is a level playing field. Fkuc the hypocrites! Go Sky!

---

6. There is a possibility that they are doing more than others.
7. I'm outta here...

Not really. That's your fantasy land.

Since day 1 of Sky's great successes, not one person serious enough was saying that they were clean.
The problem are the people that live here 24/7 and root for other particular dopers that they hope are clean, or all of the oldest members thinking that in someway what they are seeing now is less true and honest than what they were seeing before.

The onus is on you to provide or show even a smallish piece of evidence that Froome is doing something dirtier than his rivals, many of which convicted dopers or with stronger connections to teams and people that were behind the doping world since day 1.

All I see is an intelligent, well spoken, gentlemen that provides fantastic racing and might be a better natural talent and a better responder, compared to the ones that "showed promise earlier", because they were doping since they bought their first bike.

 

[sniper]

Macbeth, While I agree with some of the things you say, part of that 'onus of evidence' has been met already. It consists of the ties between sky and the governing body. No other team is so demonstrably close to cookson. Arguably that gives from an advantage over his competitors.

 

[MacBAir]

Re:

Macbeth, While I agree with some of the things you say, part of that 'onus of evidence' has been met already. It consists of the ties between sky and the governing body. No other team is so demonstrably close to cookson. Arguably that gives from an advantage over his competitors.

Please.

Astana, Tinkoff, Movistar and Katusha can do what the f*** they want, too.

 

[Benotti69]

The five steps of a Sky/BC supporters road towards reality:

1. They are doing it clean. It wasn't possible before but thanks to controls being in place, now it is. About time too! Go Sky!
2. Ok, maybe they have some secret weapon the others don't but it is something that is not yet illegal.
3. There is a possibility that Froome is on something illegal but there is no team-wide doping.
4. Given the history of the sport, and that nothing seems to have changed, there is a chance the team is in on it.
5. Sure they do drugs but so do all the others, so it is a level playing field. Fkuc the hypocrites! Go Sky!

---

6. There is a possibility that they are doing more than others.
7. I'm outta here...

Not really. That's your fantasy land.

Since day 1 of Sky's great successes, not one person serious enough was saying that they were clean.
The problem are the people that live here 24/7 and root for other particular dopers that they hope are clean, or all of the oldest members thinking that in someway what they are seeing now is less true and honest than what they were seeing before.

The onus is on you to provide or show even a smallish piece of evidence that Froome is doing something dirtier than his rivals, many of which convicted dopers or with stronger connections to teams and people that were behind the doping world since day 1.

All I see is an intelligent, well spoken, gentlemen that provides fantastic racing and might be a better natural talent and a better responder, compared to the ones that "showed promise earlier", because they were doping since they bought their first bike.

Brailsford claimed they had a tome about doing it clean and a Zero tolerance police towards doping.

To deny that Sky claimed they were going to do it clean is trolling!

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Macbeth, While I agree with some of the things you say, part of that 'onus of evidence' has been met already. It consists of the ties between sky and the governing body. No other team is so demonstrably close to cookson. Arguably that gives from an advantage over his competitors.

Please.

Astana, Tinkoff, Movistar and Katusha can do what the f*** they want, too.

Just not in July.

 

[MmeDesgrange]

I think, my dear McBAir, were I in your shoes I might ask some of the young riders who left the BC Academy

 

[TeflonDub]

Yes, all the contenders are likely doping, but only one major team (sorry, JV) continues to claim the moral high ground despite the trail of contradictions they leave in their wake. And Froome has made his commitment to doing everything clean part and parcel of his public image, an image that makes him money. Team Sky absolutely made being clean a selling point. Extraordinary scrutiny is the price you pay for extraordinary levels of BS.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re:

Yes, all the contenders are likely doping, but only one major team (sorry, JV) continues to claim the moral high ground despite the trail of contradictions they leave in their wake. And Froome has made his commitment to doing everything clean part and parcel of his public image, an image that makes him money. Team Sky absolutely made being clean a selling point. Extraordinary scrutiny is the price you pay for extraordinary levels of BS.

We've already discussed this.
We've established that they are doping. Just like the others.
I'm confused about the point you make here.
Extreme *** is claiming you ate bad meat after testing positive. Extreme *** would be Tyler Hamilton saying he had 2 personalities and hence, 2 DNAs and that BS. The Peurto Blood Bag case.That calls for extraordinary scrutiny. Contador and Valverde deserve scrutiny, much more than Sky.

You're focussing on *** PR when the sport is dying and the people who are doped are still DSs, Owners and what not.
Sky did not create the doping culture. And they have the best GT rider of today with them. Froome would do great any team he goes to. No need to make your Sky issue a Froome issue.(Porte did well at the Tour)

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Yes, all the contenders are likely doping, but only one major team (sorry, JV) continues to claim the moral high ground despite the trail of contradictions they leave in their wake. And Froome has made his commitment to doing everything clean part and parcel of his public image, an image that makes him money. Team Sky absolutely made being clean a selling point. Extraordinary scrutiny is the price you pay for extraordinary levels of BS.

We've already discussed this.
We've established that they are doping. Just like the others.
I'm confused about the point you make here.
Extreme ****** is claiming you ate bad meat after testing positive. Extreme ****** would be Tyler Hamilton saying he had 2 personalities and hence, 2 DNAs and that BS. The Peurto Blood Bag case.That calls for extraordinary scrutiny. Contador and Valverde deserve scrutiny, much more than Sky.

You're focussing on ****** PR when the sport is dying and the people who are doped are still DSs, Owners and what not.
Sky did not create the doping culture. And they have the best GT rider of today with them. Froome would do great any team he goes to. No need to make your Sky issue a Froome issue.(Porte did well at the Tour)

Like Barloworld or Konica?

:lol:

 

[Amnes2015]

underwhelming today

i guess we have to wait for 2017

ASO will make again a ridiculous route ala 2015 , for Quintana, and Froome will have to do the PSM again

 

[TeflonDub]

Re: Re:

We've already discussed this.
We've established that they are doping. Just like the others.
I'm confused about the point you make here.
Extreme ****** is claiming you ate bad meat after testing positive. Extreme ****** would be Tyler Hamilton saying he had 2 personalities and hence, 2 DNAs and that BS. The Peurto Blood Bag case.That calls for extraordinary scrutiny. Contador and Valverde deserve scrutiny, much more than Sky.

You're focussing on ****** PR when the sport is dying and the people who are doped are still DSs, Owners and what not.
Sky did not create the doping culture. And they have the best GT rider of today with them. Froome would do great any team he goes to. No need to make your Sky issue a Froome issue.(Porte did well at the Tour)

All the BS you quoted was the BS that flows after they got popped. A sport that desperately needs credibility has seen the usual sleights of hand of "working hard and pushing through the pain" now expanded upon with ridiculous claims that "we're not doping, you can totally believe in us! Because we invented science, like pillows, Nutella-bans and hand sanitizer."

It's hard to address the systemic problems in the sport's governance when a new team with one of the biggest budgets comes in and pours a new type of fuel on the fire. You're probably right that Froome would do well wherever he went, because nobody was as surprised as Brailsford at what Froome became five years ago. So whatever he found that works so well for him he found by himself. Maybe it was just the self-belief he demonstrated when he moved to Monaco earlier that year while on domestique money going into the last year of his contract without any results to suggest a renewal.

 

[MmeDesgrange]

Antoine Vayer was given carte blanche at Festina to do as he wished. He introduced heart rate monitors, SRM, data analysis and a training regime that was both innovative and science based. He had the full support of Bruno Roussel who had himself learnt his craft as a DS with Paul Koechli. Festina's training was predicated on the best practice in what would become known as sports science. Vayer himself says that Ferrari utilised elements of what he put in place at Festina to train Armstrong.

And at team meetings, when the time came to discuss the infamous slush fund, he simply left the room. Vayer has said he had no interest in how the riders were 'prepared', solely in training them in the most modern, scientific way possible.

The point being that, had Willy Voet never taken the wrong fork in the road when approaching that customs post, Festina's success could have been credited to Vayer's application of sports science. It's not an either/or option.

 

[elduggo]

Re: Re:

Nobody is clean. Period.

Sky's Vuelta team are so bad they're doing a decent job looking like they're clean.

If this year has shown anything its that Sky pay mere lip service to anyone who doesn't feature in July. Not that that's anything new. And it mirrors Lance's USPS setup with his 'inner-circle' and everyone else.

Sky are so good and meticulous in their training with their technology and their marginal gains that the one-time great white hope of British cycling, Petey Kennaugh, was flapping off the back of the lead group for ages til he popped, in yesterdays stage. Their whole team (bar CF) should have been ejected, along with many others, for missing a stage time cut by A LOT. They have been pathetic in this race. Whatever 'program' the July boys are on, the boys of September aren't seeing much of that.

I saw someone ask about Alex Peters on twitter this week. I had wondered the same. Bright young, emerging talent. Have they destroyed him too? What of Owain Doull next year, one wonders. They cut Roche loose, despite being in the form of his life. Despite his vast TdeF experience he was still overlooked, and it was eventually decided he was surplus to requirements. There's a back-story there that we don't know the half of.

But, this is all ok. Just like the excuses that get rolled out for the GB track team about how they need to peak every 4 years cos funding, etc, I'm sure Sky will claim its all about July. Just like US Postal did.

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

Nobody is clean. Period.

Sky's Vuelta team are so bad they're doing a decent job looking like they're clean.

If this year has shown anything its that Sky pay mere lip service to anyone who doesn't feature in July. Not that that's anything new. And it mirrors Lance's USPS setup with his 'inner-circle' and everyone else.

Sky are so good and meticulous in their training with their technology and their marginal gains that the one-time great white hope of British cycling, Petey Kennaugh, was flapping off the back of the lead group for ages til he popped, in yesterdays stage. Their whole team (bar CF) should have been ejected, along with many others, for missing a stage time cut by A LOT. They have been pathetic in this race. Whatever 'program' the July boys are on, the boys of September aren't seeing much of that.

I saw someone ask about Alex Peters on twitter this week. I had wondered the same. Bright young, emerging talent. Have they destroyed him too? What of Owain Doull next year, one wonders. They cut Roche loose, despite being in the form of his life. Despite his vast TdeF experience he was still overlooked, and it was eventually decided he was surplus to requirements. There's a back-story there that we don't know the half of.

But, this is all ok. Just like the excuses that get rolled out for the GB track team about how they need to peak every 4 years cos funding, etc, I'm sure Sky will claim its all about July. Just like US Postal did.

they dont "claim"

they say it, it is all about July for them, I thought you already understood that since 2012.

the best will go to the Tour. if they win the Tour they can afford to lose the Vuelta. I completely understand that. July is the goal

 

[Cycle Chic]

back to the time trial - even Ned Boulting remarked that on taking his helmet off - Froomes hair was completely dry. How is that possible ? there is no way in that heat and after that TT your hair can be bone dry.

 

[Amnes2015]

Re:

back to the time trial - even Ned Boulting remarked that on taking his helmet off - Froomes hair was completely dry. How is that possible ? there is no way in that heat and after that TT your hair can be bone dry.

new marginal gain

air conditioning in helmet :surprised:

 

[DanielSong39]

Froome definitely got a boost after the second rest day; otherwise he would've cracked hard in the third week.

But at the end of the day, boosts are part of the sport and he deserves full marks for making the race a little more interesting.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Re: Re:

back to the time trial - even Ned Boulting remarked that on taking his helmet off - Froomes hair was completely dry. How is that possible ? there is no way in that heat and after that TT your hair can be bone dry.

new marginal gain

air conditioning in helmet :surprised:

well you wouldnt sweat if you are riding a doped bike - not much effort needed.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

Nobody is clean. Period.

Sky's Vuelta team are so bad they're doing a decent job looking like they're clean.

If this year has shown anything its that Sky pay mere lip service to anyone who doesn't feature in July. Not that that's anything new. And it mirrors Lance's USPS setup with his 'inner-circle' and everyone else.

Sky are so good and meticulous in their training with their technology and their marginal gains that the one-time great white hope of British cycling, Petey Kennaugh, was flapping off the back of the lead group for ages til he popped, in yesterdays stage. Their whole team (bar CF) should have been ejected, along with many others, for missing a stage time cut by A LOT. They have been pathetic in this race. Whatever 'program' the July boys are on, the boys of September aren't seeing much of that.

I saw someone ask about Alex Peters on twitter this week. I had wondered the same. Bright young, emerging talent. Have they destroyed him too? What of Owain Doull next year, one wonders. They cut Roche loose, despite being in the form of his life. Despite his vast TdeF experience he was still overlooked, and it was eventually decided he was surplus to requirements. There's a back-story there that we don't know the half of.

But, this is all ok. Just like the excuses that get rolled out for the GB track team about how they need to peak every 4 years cos funding, etc, I'm sure Sky will claim its all about July. Just like US Postal did.

This post is so wrong in a lot of different ways.
Check this out: Interview of Sean Yates. http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/07/tour-de-france/power-in-numbers-keeps-froome-in-yellow_415621

The Meat:
VN: Even you think it’s boring?
SY: It is boring compared to other races, like the Giro or Vuelta, where there is a lot less at stake. Teams don’t bring their A-team [to Giro or Vuelta], because the A-teams need to be at the Tour. That’s what really matters, is the Tour. So Sky brings the A-team to the Tour. What can you do?

For every team, every DS, every owner, its the Tour that matters.
For a guy like Froome to even do the Vuelta is something special. Froome will be back next year with an amazing team for both these Tours. If Sky have learned one thing from this Vuelta is that the "Double" is doable.

And the team not being good has several reasons. Benat Inxuasti, Nico Roche, Landa all being sick. Kwiato looked strong. At Sky, it is not just about the Tour. Sure, thats their no. 1 goal but they have other objectives as well. They won a monument, came second at another. Landa was strong at the Giro before he pulled out.

Sky is nowhere near what Lance's team was, and even if it was, who are we to question?

 

[DanielSong39]

Re: Re:

back to the time trial - even Ned Boulting remarked that on taking his helmet off - Froomes hair was completely dry. How is that possible ? there is no way in that heat and after that TT your hair can be bone dry.

new marginal gain

air conditioning in helmet :surprised:

well you wouldnt sweat if you are riding a doped bike - not much effort needed.

That's also part of the sport - and hey, at least it helped provide some entertainment in stage 20!

I'm guessing he got about 50 watts from the bike - probably translates to 1-2 minutes over the time trial.

 

[ahsoe]

Hi there

First post from a danish cycling fan. Great and interesting forum I must say.

I know much of what I am writing here has been covered in length already.

I don't mind doping as such, as long as it is a more or less level playing field. (The Tour of 07 with Rasmussen and Contador battling up each mountain was for me the most exciting race I can remember in recent years. Even though they most likely both were doped. Rasmussen was for sure anyway. The Schleck-Contador duels were also very good.)
In the best of all worlds, there weren't any doping, but this is unfortunately not realistic.

I dislike Froome as an athlete and will never accept or believe him and Team Sky in general in cycling. And all this newfound goodguy, applauding your opponents will not win me over, sorry.
I mean it is a good thing. Sportsmanship is always good to see. But it will not convince me.

-His major transformation pre/post Vuelta 2011. I haven't seen anything like that before. For me annoyingly suspicious.
-Looking like a skeleton or kz-prisoner Froome is able to outclimb the best climbers with relative ease while at the same time crushing the specialists in timetrials
-In this years Vuelta he can stay on pretty much the same level throughout the three weeks after having done the Tour and Olympics. And battle for the win. I find that very unlikely.
-The Mount Ventoux 2013 is to date the single most jaw-dropping ridiculous performance I have seen in cycling. Breaking in the corners... Please!
-Illness, Bilhazaria as an explanation to the sudden transformation
-I do not recall who said it or if it was even Sky. But it has been suggested, that the lack of multiple attacks/accelerations on mountain stages is a sign that cycling is cleaner yet Froome makes 5-6-7 savage accelerations when attacking up a mountain.
-He comes accross as tactically not very good. I would like to see him and Sky without the radios and Power-meters.
-'Sky and Froome have been tested more than most athletes' as a sign that they are clean. Lance was also tested much and Bjarne Riis never tested positive
-His style on a bicycle, sitting accelerations with legs going like drumsticks and elbows everywhere (not really relevant for the discussion, I know)
-They are riding just as fast as previously doped riders
-Wiggins' fantastic 2012 season followed by more or less nothing compared to that year.
-Team Sky's brutal dominance coinciding with the emergence of weight-loss drugs like AICAR and GW-1516 (and probably others). In that vein (haha) emaciated Horner wining the 2013 Vuelta at 41 of age.
-Their stated mission, to show, that you can compete with a clean team and their zero-tolerance politic compared to the staff they have had employed
-Their statement: 'We train better and pay more attention to detail than our competitors. And therefore receive marginal gains.' That is just arrogant and condescending towards the competitors in my opinion. As well as unlikely.
-Their continued insistance that 'we are oh so clean'
-First it was Wiggins, then Froome. Third Ritchie Porte, fourth Geraint Thomas. Next up Peter Kennaugh and Ian Boswell. Sky has an amazing ability to optimize performance of riders and turn classic riders into GC-competitors. With a very small rate of failure. They seem to follow a two-year scedule starting with a statement: 'I want to explore my GC-potential'.
-Their lieutenants and this year a large part of their Tour squad are stronger or just as strong as the other teams captains in the mountains. Completely kills any exciting racing.
-The complete lack of positive doping tests in recent years are for me very very suspicious.

I am looking forward to knowing what they are doing, that are making them so succesful. But it will probably be a while before we know.

Until then I will cheer for the likes of Contador, Quintana, Chaves, Nibali etc. who are probably also doping, but are not talking much about it, just riding their bike.
They are, at least for me, much more likable.

Best regards

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Nobody is clean. Period.

Sky's Vuelta team are so bad they're doing a decent job looking like they're clean.

If this year has shown anything its that Sky pay mere lip service to anyone who doesn't feature in July. Not that that's anything new. And it mirrors Lance's USPS setup with his 'inner-circle' and everyone else.

Sky are so good and meticulous in their training with their technology and their marginal gains that the one-time great white hope of British cycling, Petey Kennaugh, was flapping off the back of the lead group for ages til he popped, in yesterdays stage. Their whole team (bar CF) should have been ejected, along with many others, for missing a stage time cut by A LOT. They have been pathetic in this race. Whatever 'program' the July boys are on, the boys of September aren't seeing much of that.

I saw someone ask about Alex Peters on twitter this week. I had wondered the same. Bright young, emerging talent. Have they destroyed him too? What of Owain Doull next year, one wonders. They cut Roche loose, despite being in the form of his life. Despite his vast TdeF experience he was still overlooked, and it was eventually decided he was surplus to requirements. There's a back-story there that we don't know the half of.

But, this is all ok. Just like the excuses that get rolled out for the GB track team about how they need to peak every 4 years cos funding, etc, I'm sure Sky will claim its all about July. Just like US Postal did.

This post is so wrong in a lot of different ways.
Check this out: Interview of Sean Yates. http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/07/tour-de-france/power-in-numbers-keeps-froome-in-yellow_415621

The Meat:
VN: Even you think it’s boring?
SY: It is boring compared to other races, like the Giro or Vuelta, where there is a lot less at stake. Teams don’t bring their A-team [to Giro or Vuelta], because the A-teams need to be at the Tour. That’s what really matters, is the Tour. So Sky brings the A-team to the Tour. What can you do?

For every team, every DS, every owner, its the Tour that matters.
For a guy like Froome to even do the Vuelta is something special. Froome will be back next year with an amazing team for both these Tours. If Sky have learned one thing from this Vuelta is that the "Double" is doable.

And the team not being good has several reasons. Benat Inxuasti, Nico Roche, Landa all being sick. Kwiato looked strong. At Sky, it is not just about the Tour. Sure, thats their no. 1 goal but they have other objectives as well. They won a monument, came second at another. Landa was strong at the Giro before he pulled out.

Sky is nowhere near what Lance's team was, and even if it was, who are we to question?

That tells us so much. So much.