Frs?

[sashimono]

The manufacturer of FRS claims a 3.9% increase in VO2 max.

Doesn't that count as performance enhancement and if so why isn't the active ingredient (Quercetin) banned?

 

[RhodriM]

Is it dangerous?

I'd have though that just being 'performance enhancing' isn't enough to get something banned... what about beetroot? Or food for that matter.

 

[Animal]

The manufacturer of FRS claims a 3.9% increase in VO2 max.

Doesn't that count as performance enhancement and if so why isn't the active ingredient (Quercetin) banned?

Cos you get it from apples?

 

[scribe]

Is it dangerous?

I'd have though that just being 'performance enhancing' isn't enough to get something banned... what about beetroot? Or food for that matter.

That is an interesting thought and worthy of discussion. I'd like anything 'artificial' to be banned if it enhances performance. Gotta be difficult to define and distinguish artificial from natural.

 

[mercycle]

I'd have though that just being 'performance enhancing' isn't enough to get something banned... what about beetroot? Or food for that matter.

Therein lies the rub. Lots of the sporting laws written are too generic: "any performance enhancing substance or method".

Worded as such, one could make the argument that food is banned or at least "food not in season locally". Extra sleep too; no more afternoon naps. Artificial vs Natural: pseduoephedrine would be banned, but the natural substances that contain it would not.

The flip side of the coin is: "Substance X is not specifically called out in the law, so it must be legal".

How many apples would one have to eat to gain a 3.9% increase in VO2max and would you have any time off the toilet to take advantage of it?

 

[krebs303]

Popular Supplement Quercetin Does Not Enhance Athletic Performance

ScienceDaily (Sep. 4, 2009) — The antioxidant quercetin is increasingly being marketed as a supplement that boosts athletic performance, but a new University of Georgia study finds that it is no better than a placebo.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090903110820.htm

 

[mercycle]

But if a placebo improves ones performance, simply because "you believe it will", isn't it effective?

Which begs the question, if a placebo leads to improved performance, shouldn't it be banned?

 

[RhodriM]

But if a placebo improves ones performance, simply because "you believe it will", isn't it effective?

Which begs the question, if a placebo leads to improved performance, shouldn't it be banned?

Ha. I'd love cycling if training and eating properly were banned as perfomance enhancing too. I'd be awesome.

 

[Cobber]

The manufacturer of FRS claims a 3.9% increase in VO2 max.

Doesn't that count as performance enhancement and if so why isn't the active ingredient (Quercetin) banned?

The claim by the manufacturer is probably not validated by any scientific study There is probably a little asterix next to this statement pointing to a footnote that says as much. "Supplements" are not regulated the same way as foods and medicines. There is no FDA regulation of these products, and thus they can claim whatever they like.

 

[flyor64]

ScienceDaily (Sep. 4, 2009) — The antioxidant quercetin is increasingly being marketed as a supplement that boosts athletic performance, but a new University of Georgia study finds that it is no better than a placebo.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090903110820.htm

Interesting read. I've been trying the stuff and can't tell one way or another if it's helped. It certainly didn't help when my left quad cramped bad in my last race

Slightly OT but I noticed that Coca Cola funded that study. I've always wondered why there is or isn't a conflict of interest in those situations.

 

[JayZee]

Slightly OT but I noticed that Coca Cola funded that study. I've always wondered why there is or isn't a conflict of interest in those situations.

There is a conflict of interest. But that can be said for a large percentage of the supplement studies out there. It is also true of many of the studies supporting your favorite sports drink. Most of the early studies on electrolyte replacement were funded by Gatorade. Go figure.

 

[Cobblestones]

Ha. I'd love cycling if training and eating properly were banned as perfomance enhancing too. I'd be awesome.

I thought eating properly was banned already. Look at the chicken if you want proof.

 

[mercycle]

Most of the early studies on electrolyte replacement were funded by Gatorade.

Taken at face value, this is not necessarily a bad thing; Gatorade would have a relevant interest in failures of their product along with the successes. As long as there were no influence by Gatorade to produce successful results, the conflict of interest can be mitigated.

Arm's Length is the applicable theory here. Gatorade funds a study on the efficacy of it's product, but instead of paying the testers directly, a third party receives the money. Testers apply to this third party, one is chosen at random. Tester never knows who paid for the study, Gatorade never knows who the testers are, the third party just acts as a broker for the deal.

Perfect? No, but certainly better than Gatorade going directly to testers.

 

[flyor64]

Taken at face value, this is not necessarily a bad thing; Gatorade would have a relevant interest in failures of their product along with the successes. As long as there were no influence by Gatorade to produce successful results, the conflict of interest can be mitigated.

Arm's Length is the applicable theory here. Gatorade funds a study on the efficacy of it's product, but instead of paying the testers directly, a third party receives the money. Testers apply to this third party, one is chosen at random. Tester never knows who paid for the study, Gatorade never knows who the testers are, the third party just acts as a broker for the deal.

Perfect? No, but certainly better than Gatorade going directly to testers.

Very informative, thank you.

It leads me to wonder if Coca Cola followed this procedure in funding this study. Given that they own an energy drink brand or 20...I wonder if it was is in their interest to disprove the FRS performance gain claims...or the other way around?

I know the studay was not directly related to FRS but they seem to be at the forefront of pushing this particular antioxidant as an energy booster/VO2 max increaser...sorta doohickey.

 

[Race Radio]

ScienceDaily (Sep. 4, 2009) — The antioxidant quercetin is increasingly being marketed as a supplement that boosts athletic performance, but a new University of Georgia study finds that it is no better than a placebo.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090903110820.htm

What?! FRs is a fraud?

next thing you know somebody is going to say Chris Carmichael is not a good coach.

 

[Anonymous]

What?! FRs is a fraud?

next thing you know somebody is going to say Chris Carmichael is not a good coach.

At least FRS has an appropriate spokeshole, errr spokesperson.

 

[Cloxxki]

Ha. I'd love cycling if training and eating properly were banned as perfomance enhancing too. I'd be awesome.

I'd beat you all with those rules!

 

[Beech Mtn]

No discussion of FRS would be complete without the Big Landowski's take on the matter:

http://www.truesport.com/rzone/articles/article.asp?recid=831

 

[mercycle]

Sorry, I want to clarify my previous post:

I don't know if Gatorade/CocaCola actually followed this procedure, I was trying to present a hypothetical manner in which they could have funded a study to avoid a conflict of interest.

It was more "how I would do it if I wanted to see if my product actually worked".

 

[JayZee]

Very informative, thank you.

It leads me to wonder if Coca Cola followed this procedure in funding this study. Given that they own an energy drink brand or 20...I wonder if it was is in their interest to disprove the FRS performance gain claims...or the other way around?

I know the studay was not directly related to FRS but they seem to be at the forefront of pushing this particular antioxidant as an energy booster/VO2 max increaser...sorta doohickey.

For an interesting take on the marketing/science behind sports drinks read the section on Exercise and Dehydration:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/01/featured-series-on-science-of-sport.html

I am not suggesting that there is always a direct conflict of interest, but where science is key component of marketing there is always a danger of conflict.

As others have pointed out, in the USA supplement claims are not regulated in the same way medications are regulated. The primary enforcer of supplement claims often ends up being the FTC, which goes after false advertising claims. However, if you have a study that supports your claim then you have a defense when the FTC comes a knockin.

 

[montagna lunga]

But if a placebo improves ones performance, simply because "you believe it will", isn't it effective?

Which begs the question, if a placebo leads to improved performance, shouldn't it be banned?

Time to ban "expectation"

fracking Moe Ronnic culture we've become

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

Time to ban "expectation"

fracking Moe Ronnic culture we've become

Welcome to The Clinic. We've been expecting you.

 

[BroDeal]

I plan on marketing a new product. I'll call it PlacEPO. I'll get a few riders who achieved their results with real EPO to endorse it and make a mint from freds and the feeble minded. After a year I'll come out with a new formulation, put it in a black plastic bottle, and call it PlacEPO Carbon.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

I plan on marketing a new product. I'll call it PlacEPO. I'll get a few riders who achieved their results with real EPO to endorse it and make a mint from freds and the feeble minded. After a year I'll come out with a new formulation, put it in a black plastic bottle, and call it PlacEPO Carbon.

I think this says it all..

 

[pataphysician]

I plan on marketing a new product. I'll call it PlacEPO. I'll get a few riders who achieved their results with real EPO to endorse it and make a mint from freds and the feeble minded. After a year I'll come out with a new formulation, put it in a black plastic bottle, and call it PlacEPO Carbon.

It would also be interesting to see a team set up a placebo doping program. The team doctor could inject the riders with saline while telling them that it was the newest undetectable product. the riders would feel charged and pass all of their tests.