Functional Threshold HR (FTHR)

[Indurain]

I am 40yrs old and my Max HR is 184. Based a past race I worked my FTHR out to be 165 (20mins at about 174bpm avg x .95). However today I entered a club race that went for 57mins 30sec. The first 14mins of race my AVG HR was abt 160 (I was feeling good still). However for the rest of the race (43mins) the AVG was about 172 to 174. (I was in a 2man break away).

For the 57mins 30sec my AVG HR was 170 (92% of my max). This is all based on my Garmin report (with a premium HR strap which I believe to be accurate).

Does this mean my Functional Threshold HR or Lactate Threshold (The HR I can hold for a 1hr Timetrial) is abt 170. (92% of max). I admit I went way into the red for this race and probably couldn't reproduce the effort every week. I also came into the race relatively fresh.

I don't own a Power Meter yet, but I notice in the 2nd half my Power was starting to lag (abt 1km'h to 2km'h slower than 1st half). I was riding at the limit from 14min mark on. Even though my AVG HR stayed consistent my Power didn't. Given that I couldn't sustain the power, does this basically make this data (ie. basing intevals on my FTHR) useless.

I'm not really up to date with the scientific approach to my data, but is this basically in line with most other competitive cyclist ie. having a FTHR at about 92% of max (assuming I got my figures right).

 

[oldborn]

Well we can not live without numbers today, do Merckx has HR monitor?

Anyway, if we ask 10 coaches we gonna have 10 different answers. I am a fan of treshold HR term as something where our hart rate borders between the aerobic anergy supplies and anerobic es. without going into red.

FTHR term and definition you know. When power or HR pass FT, fatigue will be here much sooner, but power just below FT can be maintained considerably longer.

On a perceived exertion scale of 1 to 10 you FTHR at about 7 or 8. It s common with fit athletes for their FTHR to be in the range of 80 to 85 % of their VO2Max, simple as that.
Those values FTP changes during the season especially if you train hard.
You ask Q about how yours power goes down but your FTHR remain stady.

We are talking now about power to HR ratio, your form level are going down regardless your HR. You should not train to change FTHR, cos it will never drop to much if you are fit.

Yours last Q, i use to determine mine FTHR (beside 1hour/20 min all out) as something which is somewhere arround 80-84% of maximum effort capacity, or somewhere arround of 85% of mine MHR.
Off course, it goes ups and down but at least we have something to look (without Powermeter), but not to be our goal.
Hope this help!

 

[Tapeworm]

And herein lies the problem with HR. It can vary greatly without corresponding to power output. Your HR could be 10 or 20 beats higher than "normal" but the power output could be the same or even lower. If you don't have a power meter use RPE as a guide if you think the HR is off.

Whilst HR is not meaningless it isn't a reliable metric for performance.

 

[brianf7]

In summer the HR differs a lot in heat so dont read too much into HR while racing in heat get the thresholds pinned down in a lab with VO2 max test.

Power will give you better readings.
But in a race you just hang in so dont need HR anyway forget it and get your head down and bum up. If you have to work in a break make sure its down hill.

 

[oldborn]

If you have to work in a break make sure its down hill.

It will work every single time!

 

[usedtobefast]

i think if you know what your max is, and where you are fitness wise, your
HR is the best indicator of how well you are going. it is the ultimate dictator
of your bodies function. you can train to power, but what is your heart doing?
if it's above or below normal, then you are overtrained maybe. sure Eddie did not need a HRM or Powermeter, but he would have used one if they had been available.

 

[Tapeworm]

...your HR is the best indicator of how well you are going. it is the ultimate dictator of your bodies function. you can train to power, but what is your heart doing?...

No, it's not. The heart responds to the body's demands, not the other way around. You may think you have reached your "max hr" but fact of the matter is the heart can beat a LOT more than you can make it with exercise. There are a variety of reasons why your HR may vary from "normal". It may be an indication of fitness, fatigue, dehydration, nerves (race anxiety), stimulants (caffeine), fear (for those who like downhilling for example).

This may or may not have any bearing on performance.

 

[Indurain]

No, it's not. The heart responds to the body's demands, not the other way around. You may think you have reached your "max hr" but fact of the matter is the heart can beat a LOT more than you can make it with exercise. There are a variety of reasons why your HR may vary from "normal". It may be an indication of fitness, fatigue, dehydration, nerves (race anxiety), fear (for those who like downhilling for example).

This may or may not have any bearing on performance.

And the fact that I pretty much had all of these minus the caffeine. My Heart must have been way out.

I'm guessing I should take a less scientific approach to my training and use RPE until I get a Power Meter (hurry up Garmin Vector!!!). Just estimate effort for intervals, etc. I have already started reading 'Training and racing with a Power Meter'. Great book.

thanks for the replies

 

[usedtobefast]

No, it's not. The heart responds to the body's demands, not the other way around. You may think you have reached your "max hr" but fact of the matter is the heart can beat a LOT more than you can make it with exercise. There are a variety of reasons why your HR may vary from "normal". It may be an indication of fitness, fatigue, dehydration, nerves (race anxiety), stimulants (caffeine), fear (for those who like downhilling for example).

This may or may not have any bearing on performance.

it is the delivery of oxygen that make all of that possible. the heart does that.
not the other way around.

 

[Tapeworm]

Delivery of oxygen during threshold efforts is not the limiter, ie: the cardiovascular can deliver more oxygen to the working muscles than they can actually use. At VO2max it may be a deciding factor.

So at threshold you can breathe more, your heart can beat faster but you won't go any faster simply because at a cellular level no more can be used.

 

[usedtobefast]

Delivery of oxygen during threshold efforts is not the limiter, ie: the cardiovascular can deliver more oxygen to the working muscles than they can actually use. At VO2max it may be a deciding factor.

So at threshold you can breathe more, your heart can beat faster but you won't go any faster simply because at a cellular level no more can be used.

so how would you improve the cellular uptake of oxygen? all options on the table.

 

[Tapeworm]

Train more. In short.

When you train aerobically a lot of resulting adaptations take place. Neovascularistion, increased mitochondrial density, capillarisation, increased blood volume etc. There will also be cardiovascular improvements, sometimes in the form of cardiac output. So whilst we may get "fitter" our HR may not change that much due to increased demands. If you're HR determined effort then how would you explain an HR of 170 and not even be turning a pedal? (for reference: when you're hurlting down a mountain trial and you brakes seem to be failing, that's how.)

This is not to say HR cannot be used for training or should be ignored. It's just that it is highly variable and sometimes totally unrelated to effort and that should be taken into account. So if your HR is "at max" and RPE is a 12 on the Borg scale then I say keep on trucking.

 

[Indurain]

This is not to say HR cannot be used for training or should be ignored. It's just that it is highly variable and sometimes totally unrelated to effort and that should be taken into account. So if your HR is "at max" and RPE is a 12 on the Borg scale then I say keep on trucking.

Good point. I remember in one of the TdF's when Stuart O'Grady had to keep dropping back to the Dr's car as his HR was about 220. However, his effort wasn't compatible with such a HR. They never did find the problem.

 

[Polyarmour]

Good point. I remember in one of the TdF's when Stuart O'Grady had to keep dropping back to the Dr's car as his HR was about 220. However, his effort wasn't compatible with such a HR. They never did find the problem.

Maybe he'd been out out on a bender the night before with Andy Shleck? ;-)

 

[oldborn]

Train more. In short.

When you train aerobically a lot of resulting adaptations take place. Neovascularistion, increased mitochondrial density, capillarisation, increased blood volume etc. There will also be cardiovascular improvements, sometimes in the form of cardiac output. So whilst we may get "fitter" our HR may not change that much due to increased demands. If you're HR determined effort then how would you explain an HR of 170 and not even be turning a pedal? (for reference: when you're hurlting down a mountain trial and you brakes seem to be failing, that's how.)

This is not to say HR cannot be used for training or should be ignored. It's just that it is highly variable and sometimes totally unrelated to effort and that should be taken into account. So if your HR is "at max" and RPE is a 12 on the Borg scale then I say keep on trucking.

I agree with you which is strange, but most important thing on how to improve cellular uptake of oxygen is this.

Red blood cells are principal means of delivering oxygen through hemoglobin to our body tissue via blood.

So how we can improve RBC count and increase oxygen delivery to our cells? Normal physiological increases in the RBC count occurs at high altitudes (East German athletes knows better) or after strenuous physical training.

 

[usedtobefast]

Train more. In short.

When you train aerobically a lot of resulting adaptations take place. Neovascularistion, increased mitochondrial density, capillarisation, increased blood volume etc. There will also be cardiovascular improvements, sometimes in the form of cardiac output. So whilst we may get "fitter" our HR may not change that much due to increased demands. If you're HR determined effort then how would you explain an HR of 170 and not even be turning a pedal? (for reference: when you're hurlting down a mountain trial and you brakes seem to be failing, that's how.)

This is not to say HR cannot be used for training or should be ignored. It's just that it is highly variable and sometimes totally unrelated to effort and that should be taken into account. So if your HR is "at max" and RPE is a 12 on the Borg scale then I say keep on trucking.

that much i know. i thought you had more infromation...

 

[oldborn]

that much i know. i thought you had more infromation...

He never has a more information, never

 

[Tapeworm]

Don't make me get out pubmed studies.

Or I'll get coachfergie to start posting.

 

[oldborn]

Don't make me get out pubmed studies.

Or I'll get coachfergie to start posting.

Oh yeah useless studies and definitions

You will not beleive me, but i found Fergie on some Oz, Kiwi cycling forum, he has more than 400000 posts there mainly mumbling about power and strenght and huge audience as well. But he will never return here, never

He is a great coach as well

 

[usedtobefast]

so lets hear it then. clubmed/pubmed...or just plain old meds