Funny statment by Vaughters refuting Kohl

[BigBoat]

"I think with the passage of time, the passport system will be shown to have a great effect on the sport. I believe 100% the Tour can be won by a clean rider. If I had serious doubts about this, I would have no interest in continuing in this line of work, that is certain.

"There's no point in running a clean team if you feel its impossible to win in that context. It is not. Period."

Jonathon... you know there really is no point in running a clean team if your goal is to ride the Tour, and make BIG MONEY!

You mean Jonathon "clean" as in blood doping your riders with their OWN frozen red cells that were stored in the right solution so they dont have to IV dose epo to stimulate rectics and test positive like Kolom who finishes behind your riders in many races. LOL

Or be like Svein Tulf on your team... who's 'clean' Who used his "tent" (which in no study has show to raise hematocrit at all in any control group) to get his crit up "past the 50% limit." bla bla bla Tulf... You mean the Dynepo (human epo) you jacked to win all your big races with. LOL!

 

[BroDeal]

It is things like this that have caused me to lose faith in Vaughters. He knows how much benefit doping provides. He has all but admitted that he was jacked to the moon when he set the record on Ventoux. He has effective said that it answered questions he had about how good he could be on a full program.

I do not see how he could be legit and make a statement that the Tour can be won clean. I have criticized him in the past for being unwilling to do anything other than allude to what was going on at Postal, but this latest statement takes the biscuit.

 

[BigBoat]

Be clean for the Tour Vaughters and get nobody to the finish! Oh but the Tiaa-Cref program was "clean" LOL.

 

[Stani Kléber]

He has all but admitted that he was jacked to the moon when he set the record on Ventoux. He has effective said that it answered questions he had about how good he could be on a full program.

Vaughters operated as a rider in a different era than he operates as a manager.

I've got many, many team managers I'd like to question first before JV.

By all means debate what he says but he's one of the relatively good guys in the sport: Garmin-Slipstream is an outfit where a rider can ride clean and thrive.

 

[RdBiker]

Vaughters operated as a rider in a different era than he operates as a manager.

I've got many, many team managers I'd like to question first before JV.

By all means debate what he says but he's one of the relatively good guys in the sport: Garmin-Slipstream is an outfit where a rider can ride clean and thrive.

Or then he's the worst of them all: vocally pretending to the sponsors and the public to be running a clean team while arranging blood bags in his fridge.

 

[elapid]

VandeVelde. 'Nuff said. Talk about donkeys and race horses.

 

[BroDeal]

By all means debate what he says but he's one of the relatively good guys in the sport: Garmin-Slipstream is an outfit where a rider can ride clean and thrive.

He says he is one of the good guys. I do not tend to trust people based on their own self-serving statements.

If he were really interested in striking a blow against doping then he would hire Jaksche and announce that he will hire Kohl after his ban ends.

 

[Anonymous]

He says he is one of the good guys. I do not tend to trust people based on their own self-serving statements.

If he were really interested in striking a blow against doping then he would hire Jaksche and announce that he will hire Kohl after his ban ends.

And then give specific detail about his own doping practices instead of just hinting at it.

 

[Returnofthewolf]

VandeVelde. 'Nuff said. Talk about donkeys and race horses.

Oh yeah, cause VdV is a donkey ...GMFB.

Ya think maybe the racing cleaned up a bit relative to the past? Please point me to a specific performance of his that was NOT physiologically possible clean.

If bright collective minds make a 'thinktank', then this forum is a septictank.

 

[elapid]

Oh yeah, cause VdV is a donkey ...GMFB.

Ya think maybe the racing cleaned up a bit relative to the past? Please point me to a specific performance of his that was NOT physiologically possible clean.

If bright collective minds make a 'thinktank', then this forum is a septictank.

Welcome to the septic tank. Yes, many of us are cynics, me included. Many of us believe statements such as Kohl's that most riders are doping, particularly the top 10. VandeVelde performance in the 2008 TdF was well beyond anything he had previously achieved. Top 5 and way better than any other performance he has ever done - the cynical me no longer regards exceptional performances so innocently.

 

[Returnofthewolf]

Ha, solid. Sorry to be a DlCK, but somebodys gotta do it.

I certainly understand the cynicism, but the bottom line is the performances need to be looked at and judged objectively.

 

[Anonymous]

Ha, solid. Sorry to be a DlCK, but somebodys gotta do it.

I certainly understand the cynicism, but the bottom line is the performances need to be looked at and judged objectively.

The problem is that because of doping and the continuing information that points to its rampant acceptance in cycling, objectivity is the last thing one can use to determine the indicative nature of a performance.

For most people, I believe this statement is true: It is much worse than you think.

 

[tifosa]

Vaughters has publicly implied that, while riding for Postal he touched the "hot sauce". Now as D.S., his words are akin to the parent telling his kids "do as I say, not as I did." The question is, how incorrigible are the "kids" on his team?

Again, I have hope for his anti-doping stance:
a small dose of hope mixed with a healthy dose of cynicism.

 

[elapid]

Ha, solid. Sorry to be a DlCK, but somebodys gotta do it.

I certainly understand the cynicism, but the bottom line is the performances need to be looked at and judged objectively.

Hey, no problems. I am usually quite objective. I also prefer, if possible, to enjoy cycling and consider results and performances are real until proven otherwise. I know this most likely not to be true, but I would rather not ruin the illusion. In fact, Landis's stage 17 in the 2006 TdF is still one of my most favourite stages to watch when I am stuck on the trainer despite knowing how it was achieved. I must of gotten up on the wrong side of the bed this morning because I was rather harsh with a number of my posts today and grumpy at work!

 

[Snake8]

For most people, I believe this statement is true: It is much worse than you think.

As is this statement, again for most people: I don't care.

The thing some of you who feel all self righteous about doping fail to understand is that there are a lot of people who just do not care about doping as much as you. You remind me of bible thumpers, every issue becomes doping. Vaughters comes out for clean cycling and promotes it actively - but its not enough for you, he needs to confess all his prior misdeeds!

Are these standards you hold yourselves to? You have no hidden secrets that if you told them would end your career, but you threw them out there because it is what some geeks on a message board felt was the 'right' thing to do?

Give me a break. Develop some nuance to your arguments if you hope to persuade rather than beating everything to death with your hammers.

 

[Anonymous]

As is this statement, again for most people: I don't care.

The thing some of you who feel all self righteous about doping fail to understand is that there are a lot of people who just do not care about doping as much as you. You remind me of bible thumpers, every issue becomes doping. Vaughters comes out for clean cycling and promotes it actively - but its not enough for you, he needs to confess all his prior misdeeds!

Are these standards you hold yourselves to? You have no hidden secrets that if you told them would end your career, but you threw them out there because it is what some geeks on a message board felt was the 'right' thing to do?

Give me a break. Develop some nuance to your arguments if you hope to persuade rather than beating everything to death with your hammers.

Mirror shortage in your home, huh? Well, I am sure the economy will turn around and things will get better for you one day. I'd send you one, but I am betting I am just being optimistic in thinking you will ever see the irony of your post. Dang.

 

[BigBoat]

A few months ago the trainer Hunter Allen was stoopid enought to reveal Gustov Larsson's doped files (486 bloody watts for 31 minutes in the TT) and he finished behind a jacked Zabriskie who probably had similar if not more power. Zabriskie had over 6.5 watts per kilo for that TT to beat Larsson and his FTP was probably not far off 6.3 watts per kilo.

A clean talented man would struggle just to hold that 486 bloody watts for 5 minutes. Guys, Vaughters does NOT promote clean racing. He's a liar!

 

[drfunk000]

Educated or uneducated opinion?

A few months ago the trainer Hunter Allen was stoopid enought to reveal Gustov Larsson's doped files (486 bloody watts for 31 minutes in the TT) and he finished behind a jacked Zabriskie who probably had similar if not more power. Zabriskie had over 6.5 watts per kilo for that TT to beat Larsson and his FTP was probably not far off 6.3 watts per kilo.

A clean talented man would struggle just to hold that 486 bloody watts for 5 minutes. Guys, Vaughters does NOT promote clean racing. He's a liar!

According to the article, Gustav Larsson is 80 kilos - which would put the performance at about 6 W/kg. If you believe Dr. Coggan's power profiling spreadsheet this is not all that surprising.

Also, no way for you to calculate Zabriskie's watts unless you know his drag numbers. Care to share those with us?

http://www.velonews.com/article/88344/gustav-larsson-s-third-place-power-data-from-the-solvang

 

[craig1985]

Evidence BigBoat?

 

[Eldrack]

I wouldn't call Larssons power in that instance particularly suspicious. The big problem you have with judging peoples power in time trials is you'd need to stick them in a wind tunnel and calculate their drag coefficient to know anything. For example Zabriskie could have been putting out less power than Larsson, if he's more aerodynamic he'd still go faster on the flat and he's lighter so he'll go faster on the climb as well.

I'm not sure if Dr. Coggan bases his power charts on what is needed to succeed in the current environment or what he thinks is physiologically possible but Larssons W/Kg in this instance does set alarm bells ringing. It's when you see people pushing 6.5 W/kg for an hour up climbs after a long day in the saddle that you need to kick up a fuss.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I'm not even sure what to think of JV anymore. I remember seeing him at a local race when he was with the TIAA-Cref kids. I talked to some of them, and I thought he was doing a noble thing then, and the clean message might stick on them.

The team he runs now, and the events he competes in now, are much, much bigger than anything TIAA-Cref did. It's a very different world he's competing in, with a very different team.

Their Giro performances did look cleaner, but I honestly don't know.

 

[BroDeal]

We might as well add Millar's gem to this:

David Millar of Team Garmin-Slipstream echoed these sentiments. "If he doesn't want to come back to the sport like I have done, it's because he is nothing without doping," the Scotsman said. "You have to be a real a...hole to cover the new generation in dirt, saying it's not clean! The older generations deserve to be criticised, but not the new one which works hard and has a lot of talent - contrary to Kohl."

And I was gullible enough to believe that Millar had actually turned the corner. When will I learn? In this world cynicism pays off every time.

 

[BigBoat]

There's NO WAY in hell that any of Vaughter's top riders are clean... What a joke. LOL

Clean riders would struggle to keep up and the only time they could draft would be on flat stages and they would not even be able to pull at all... You'd be lucky to finish a Grand Tour clean and let alone a top 50 (which Fingon and Lemond more than did.)

WHAT AN ***!!! Vaughters has been to lie and make all these people believe him. Its sickening and I hope one of his riders is involved in a major blood bank scandal like that HumanPlasma in Vienna.

 

[BigBoat]

OH and Hunter was an idiot to say Gustov weighs 80 kilos (even if he weiged 100 kilos he'd never ever get to 486 bloody watts for 30 minutes cleanly.)

He's probably like 74 kg max for those stage races. 80 would make most guys "a tank."

 

[BikeCentric]

It is things like this that have caused me to lose faith in Vaughters. He knows how much benefit doping provides. He has all but admitted that he was jacked to the moon when he set the record on Ventoux. He has effective said that it answered questions he had about how good he could be on a full program.

I do not see how he could be legit and make a statement that the Tour can be won clean. I have criticized him in the past for being unwilling to do anything other than allude to what was going on at Postal, but this latest statement takes the biscuit.

Agreed. Sad but true. Cynicism reigns supreme in the crazy netherworld of pro cycling.

I mean this is common sense - if you are climbing Mt. Ventoux next to a guy that has equal ability of you, except he's jacked on a blood booster, he is going to have 20% more sustainable threshold power. He's going to drop you up that mountain, plain and simple. Vaughters knows this because HE PERSONALLY DID EPO TO WIN THE TT UP VENTOUX IN THE DAUPHINE AND HE ADMITTED THIS. And then he never won again when he went clean. Now he tells us a rider can win the Tour clean. Sure, I agree, IF AND ONLY IF THEY ARE ALL CLEAN.