GB Track Team

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stampedingviking said:
...you are chicken, have no balls and couldn't give a monkey's as to the integrity of the sport, you just kept your trap shut until now, when you could spout off on some insignificant internet forum...
this has to be the lamest post on ANY internet forum I have ever seen. Big man yourself, hiding behind a nom de plume. And personally insulting to boot. Moderators should take note.

From the PEZ article just posted by Avoriaz, I like this little gem:

...on his sojourns to the continent it took riders like Johan Museeuw...to get the better of him...."
Onya Darryl, I like hearing your observations, respect your achievements, and admire your outlook.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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stampedingviking said:
So, basically , what you are saying is that you are chicken, have no balls and couldn't give a monkey's as to the integrity of the sport, you just kept your trap shut until now, when you could spout off on some insignificant internet forum.

What a big man you are.
Wow, about roid rage...

What do you suggest DW should have done? Doing an interview in Cycling Weekly? Write a book? Shoot, Kimmage already did so.

Not getting a pro - ride in 1990 doesn't mean anything to you? Gilles Delion avant la lettre.
 
Feb 28, 2010
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Darryl Webster said:
Sorry dude, I know a lot more about Chris than you realise. What "hard evidence" would you like me to present?..pictures?. As with EVERY single case unless there's positive samples EVERY single case is circumstantial. That my dear friend is how this section of the forum works...we present the circumstantial, we discuss the POSSIBILITY and we all make our own minds up on the balance of PROBABILITY.
That I have had a former world champion ( that I trust) tell me about the enquiries made to him regards EPO directly by someone, very, very close to Chris in 91 is just that kind of CIRCUMSTANTIAL " evidence" and tied in with the leap in performance 91/92 , strange as it might seem to you, arouses my suspicion. If you don't like this kind of discussion might I suggest you steer clear of the clinic?...it does exactly what it sais on the tin..no less, no more. It is NOT a court of law.
Okay, but I think we're getting mixed up between circumstantial evidence, and hearsay evidence. A leap in performance is circumstantial evidence, and in a hearing, or trial both sides could present expert evidence as to whether this was or wasn't likely to be due to drugs. Your recollection of someone else's recollection of a conversation they had with someone close to Boardman is not circumstantial evidence, but is hearsay evidence and would have very little credibility in a hearing or trial. If the world champion in question presented the evidence that would be different. Anyway as you rightly say this `is NOT a court of law', and hence we run on a much lower burden of proof.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Hawkwood said:
Anyway as you rightly say this `is NOT a court of law', and hence we run on a much lower burden of proof.
Or actually no proof at all. If you ride pro, you dope. If you win, you are better at doping. If you get caught you are stupid. If you don't you are still doping, just clever about it
 
Dec 9, 2011
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stampedingviking said:
So, basically , what you are saying is that you are chicken, have no balls and couldn't give a monkey's as to the integrity of the sport, you just kept your trap shut until now, when you could spout off on some insignificant internet forum.

What a big man you are.
This post is a disgrace! I hope everyone reads it and sees you for the small minded coward that you are.
 
Jun 12, 2010
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Hawkwood said:
Your recollection of someone else's recollection of a conversation they had with someone close to Boardman is not circumstantial evidence, but is hearsay evidence and would have very little credibility in a hearing or trial. If the world champion in question presented the evidence that would be different.
My "recollection" is direct with the former world champ and was not an old conversation but one in recent months. I'm genuinely sorry I cant name the guy as that would breach his confidence.
The stuff about Boardman was part of a much longer chat during which he told me about the time when sharing a room , at the age of 21, with a well seasoned 32 year pro, the older guy made a feck up injecting "pot belge"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_Belge and hit a vein. This caused the guy to fit and he had to help him into a cold bath and take care of him in what could, potentially, have been a life threatening situation.
Its clear from my conversations his experiences in the pro scene have left some deep scars and contributed to a troubled life since.
He wasn't the first person to suggest to me Boardmans 91/92 leap wasn't all natural talent, two others had put it to me, one, a former pro in the 70,s with Peter Post,s Ti Raleigh team I consider a tad unreliable and rather embittered, the other a former BC national team coach from the period who I hold in very high regard.
Sadly, but understandably, no one I know would likely ever go on record, the law protects the pro scene as without overwhelming evidence, confessions , positive controls etc very little would or does ever stand legal scrutiny.
This and the fact many retired riders still make there living involved in the sport, may themselves have doped etc, is how " the omarta" works.
The "fans" themselves seem to be two camps..those who "know" its not all as it appears but still recognise the massive efforts and sacrifice that most pro riders make , drugs or no drugs and those who want to believe the script laid out for them by a complicit media and hold on to the non existent fantasy ideal of heroism and integrity which never much existed in any elite sport in any time in history.
Despite all I put, my empathy remains with the riders, caught between a rock and a hard place, pawns in a circus that has far more to do with commercial exploitation and marketing than it ever has to do with the ideals of sport. All, without fail, are men that had childhood dreams of doing it right but when faced with the reality had two choices. Many chose the dark side , many don't..those that don't mostly don't stay pro for long.
 
Jul 14, 2012
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AcademyCC said:
This post is a disgrace! I hope everyone reads it and sees you for the small minded coward that you are.
I did, I've posted some tripe in my time. But his post is embarrassing to even read, he's had a shocker!
 
Feb 28, 2010
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Darryl Webster said:
My "recollection" is direct with the former world champ and was not an old conversation but one in recent months. I'm genuinely sorry I cant name the guy as that would breach his confidence.
The stuff about Boardman was part of a much longer chat during which he told me about the time when sharing a room , at the age of 21, with a well seasoned 32 year pro, the older guy made a feck up injecting "pot belge"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_Belge and hit a vein. This caused the guy to fit and he had to help him into a cold bath and take care of him in what could, potentially, have been a life threatening situation.
Its clear from my conversations his experiences in the pro scene have left some deep scars and contributed to a troubled life since.
He wasn't the first person to suggest to me Boardmans 91/92 leap wasn't all natural talent, two others had put it to me, one, a former pro in the 70,s with Peter Post,s Ti Raleigh team I consider a tad unreliable and rather embittered, the other a former BC national team coach from the period who I hold in very high regard.
Sadly, but understandably, no one I know would likely ever go on record, the law protects the pro scene as without overwhelming evidence, confessions , positive controls etc very little would or does ever stand legal scrutiny.
This and the fact many retired riders still make there living involved in the sport, may themselves have doped etc, is how " the omarta" works.
The "fans" themselves seem to be two camps..those who "know" its not all as it appears but still recognise the massive efforts and sacrifice that most pro riders make , drugs or no drugs and those who want to believe the script laid out for them by a complicit media and hold on to the non existent fantasy ideal of heroism and integrity which never much existed in any elite sport in any time in history.
Despite all I put, my empathy remains with the riders, caught between a rock and a hard place, pawns in a circus that has far more to do with commercial exploitation and marketing than it ever has to do with the ideals of sport. All, without fail, are men that had childhood dreams of doing it right but when faced with the reality had two choices. Many chose the dark side , many don't..those that don't mostly don't stay pro for long.
Hi Daryl no I was just pointing out a technical point that your recollection of a conversation with the world champion who'd had a conversation with the person close to Boardman is hearsay no matter how accurate your recollection, it was not to call into question what you write. I know the ex-TI pro, he helped me with a CSE Biology project in about 1977, the subject nutrition, training and drugs in cycling! I trained and raced with Keith Boardman so I am a bit baised. I was looking at some old results lists recently and see were both in the same National Junior 25 championship back in the 70s, think I got to within about a minute of you, if I'd been able to maintain that relative performance during the rest of my career I would have been well chuffed!
 
Feb 23, 2011
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Darryl Webster said:
My "recollection" is direct with the former world champ and was not an old conversation but one in recent months. I'm genuinely sorry I cant name the guy as that would breach his confidence.
The stuff about Boardman was part of a much longer chat during which he told me about the time when sharing a room , at the age of 21, with a well seasoned 32 year pro, the older guy made a feck up injecting "pot belge"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_Belge and hit a vein. This caused the guy to fit and he had to help him into a cold bath and take care of him in what could, potentially, have been a life threatening situation.
Its clear from my conversations his experiences in the pro scene have left some deep scars and contributed to a troubled life since.
He wasn't the first person to suggest to me Boardmans 91/92 leap wasn't all natural talent, two others had put it to me, one, a former pro in the 70,s with Peter Post,s Ti Raleigh team I consider a tad unreliable and rather embittered, the other a former BC national team coach from the period who I hold in very high regard.
Sadly, but understandably, no one I know would likely ever go on record, the law protects the pro scene as without overwhelming evidence, confessions , positive controls etc very little would or does ever stand legal scrutiny.
This and the fact many retired riders still make there living involved in the sport, may themselves have doped etc, is how " the omarta" works.
The "fans" themselves seem to be two camps..those who "know" its not all as it appears but still recognise the massive efforts and sacrifice that most pro riders make , drugs or no drugs and those who want to believe the script laid out for them by a complicit media and hold on to the non existent fantasy ideal of heroism and integrity which never much existed in any elite sport in any time in history.
Despite all I put, my empathy remains with the riders, caught between a rock and a hard place, pawns in a circus that has far more to do with commercial exploitation and marketing than it ever has to do with the ideals of sport. All, without fail, are men that had childhood dreams of doing it right but when faced with the reality had two choices. Many chose the dark side , many don't..those that don't mostly don't stay pro for long.
The generation that I rode in produced the Wiggins, Millars and Wegelius generation although I was nowhere in that league. As most in the UK know, prior to the British Cycling regime you either did it alone in Belgium or France or if you were good enough you would get Rayner Funded. Then came along the World Class Performance Plan which morphed into what we have now. There were a handful of guys I know who got onto the WCPP and toughed it out for a couple of years before electing to go back to normal life but the stories I was told were pretty horrendous. While not making excuses for Millar his inititiation was the old school route to pro contract which I dont think did him any favours in terms of exposure to how races were "won".

My (strongly held) view has always been that the real focus of testing should be in that 2 years before and after securing a pro contract. In my opinion that is where the problems start.
 
Jun 12, 2010
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Hawkwood said:
Hi Daryl no I was just pointing out a technical point that your recollection of a conversation with the world champion who'd had a conversation with the person close to Boardman is hearsay no matter how accurate your recollection. I know the ex-TI pro, he helped me with a CSE Biology project in about 1977, the subject nutrition, training and drugs in cycling! I trained and raced with Keith Boardman so I am a bit baised. I was looking at some old results lists recently and see were both in the same National Junior 25 championship back in the 70s, think I got to within about a minute of you, if I'd been able to maintain that relevant performance during the rest of my career I would have been well chuffed!
Hi Hawkwood, yeh I realised that , I just wanted to elaborate a bit on were I stand.
I`d love to believe Chris was clean, I really would , he`s a nice guy ( bit boring but that's not a crime :) and In his circumstances I might have taken the same route in doping if indeed he did. I`d like to believe I,d not have done but then it was never suggested to me bar perhaps once at a track meet by an infamous Scotish souignier of Tony Doyle who, by suggesting that he could give me something to give me an instant boost when I told him I was having a rough meet...going like a bag of nails...might well have been to taste the cookie jar. I was extremely naive about drug use back then. My biggest error in life has been to project on to everyone my own degree of integrity and think the best of people until proved wrong. Even now I constantly fall foul of this.
I'm a strongly opinionated fella but like to research stuff before I cast judgement in public. Things are complex, doping s complex,. both in practice and personal ethics and the system that cause,s its use. These means both good ( most people ) and few bad ( a few ..Armstrong, Riis etc)) will dope. Doping doesn't make a person into a bad person more a personal choice in a complex situation governed by circumstance and dedication to integrity. We all have situations were we all compromise our integrity, lots in minor ways ,some in very big ways. The bigger the compromise is most often a balancing act of loss,s v gains. The loss,s are often huge in our biggest personal commitments to our personal integrity. The gains are greater than the loss,s for those that don't get caught and largely a bloody inconvenience and ( possible) pay cut for the few that do.
Its the just a case of rationalising who gets REALLY hurt and concluding "no one really...just there feelings cycling's not the only job a man can do, blah, blah, Blah. "
Is Chris such a man?...I don't know. I`d hope not.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Damien said:
Doping accusations without a shred of evidence are sour grapes and unfair. I am look though and everyone seems to think everyone is doping. Quite how you can enjoy sport if you think this puzzles me.
I dont think everyone is doping, Damien. I know a lot of very very good athletes do compete drug free. I see them all the time. Heck I do pretty well drug free. Even British ones can win some smaller races without dope. :p I'm sure Bradley would rip up those local 10 mile coffee shop TTs back home. :p

To suggest that Wiggins has been completely dope free however is something I cannot in a million years agree with you on!
 
Sep 23, 2011
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Darryl
Thanks for the insight.
A couple of general questions:
Given the culture these days compared to 20 years ago, if a souignier offered a young promising rider drugs now, wouldn't there be a high risk of that rider making a lot of noise about it? There was an obvious slippery slope in earlier days, could that still exist?
Secondly, you talk about the balance between gain and loss, but has the cost of being caught gone up? IMO if it is discovered out that there was significant doping on BC / Sky, I believe the people involved would have to emigrate. I don't think the public and press would forgive them. Ever.
 

the big ring

BANNED
Jul 28, 2009
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Morbius said:
Secondly, you talk about the balance between gain and loss, but has the cost of being caught gone up? IMO if it is discovered out that there was significant doping on BC / Sky, I believe the people involved would have to emigrate. I don't think the public and press would forgive them. Ever.
David Millar.
 
Jun 12, 2010
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Morbius said:
Darryl
Thanks for the insight.
A couple of general questions:
Given the culture these days compared to 20 years ago, if a souignier offered a young promising rider drugs now, wouldn't there be a high risk of that rider making a lot of noise about it? There was an obvious slippery slope in earlier days, could that still exist?
Secondly, you talk about the balance between gain and loss, but has the cost of being caught gone up? IMO if it is discovered out that there was significant doping on BC / Sky, I believe the people involved would have to emigrate. I don't think the public and press would forgive them. Ever.
I think getting into bed with Sky surely gives the answer?. "He who pays the piper plays his tune ". The Doctors, the DS,s the, sheer degree to which not just a pro team but the whole BC set up seems to be a Sky owned product.
British Cycling has sold its self to one of the most despised men on the planet.
You think he cares how results are achieved..but you KNOW he wants results and he,l reward well for them..don't and your out. Big stakes poker. Until he no longer values you, then he`l drop ya like a ton of bricks.. News Of The World anyone?...how many innocent people lost there jobs? He most certainly don't give a damn about public opinion of him , never has and never will, not anywhere be it Australia, the UK, America..its all business.

Given the nature of cycling's response to PEDS, particularly Oxygen vectors, detection rates being so poor, the detection labs releasing info about what they can detect..in other words change the mix guys...Elite cycling ( elite sport in general) is very much a case of as Orwell put it, "war without bullets"
“War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe,
as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people.
Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted
for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses."
by:
Major General Smedley Darlington Butler
 
Sep 23, 2011
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the big ring said:
David Millar.
Not the same
One repentent sinner is a lot different to a corrupt organisation, especially if that organisation became the centre of a national triumph.

Actually, Millar's case gives one example how there is a strong incentive to break any omerta. If one person gives a tearful confession saying how they were somehow forced to take drugs, that person would get all the forgiveness. The rest would be fed to the wolves.
 
Sep 23, 2011
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Darryl Webster said:
I think getting into bed with Sky surely gives the answer?. "He who pays the piper plays his tune ". The Doctors, the DS,s the, sheer degree to which not just a pro team but the whole BC set up seems to be a Sky owned product.
British Cycling has sold its self to one of the most despised men on the planet.
You think he cares how results are achieved..but you KNOW he wants results and he,l reward well for them..don't and your out. Big stakes poker. Until he no longer values you, then he`l drop ya like a ton of bricks.. News Of The World anyone?...how many innocent people lost there jobs? He most certainly don't give a damn about public opinion of him , never has and never will, not anywhere be it Australia, the UK, America..its all business.

Given the nature of cycling's response to PEDS, particularly Oxygen vectors, detection rates being so poor, the detection labs releasing info about what they can detect..in other words change the mix guys...Elite cycling ( elite sport in general) is very much a case of as Orwell put it, "war without bullets"
“War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe,
as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people.
Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted
for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses."
by:
Major General Smedley Darlington Butler
I don't disagree - but you haven't addressed my points at all
 
Jun 12, 2010
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Morbius said:
Not the same
One repentent sinner is a lot different to a corrupt organisation, especially if that organisation became the centre of a national triumph.

Actually, Millar's case gives one example how there is a strong incentive to break any omerta. If one person gives a tearful confession saying how they were somehow forced to take drugs, that person would get all the forgiveness. The rest would be fed to the wolves.
Its happened..his names Floyd Landis . And look at the material price he has paid. The Wolves are still wondering largely free.
 
Jun 12, 2010
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Morbius said:
I don't disagree - but you haven't addressed my points at all

Oops..sorry dude, I do ramble a bit :)..I suspect these days a lot more structure but certainly the access to doping has never been easier and the chances of getting caught have not really improved and access to complex information and blood analysis is not beyond anyone with a bit of cash and the internet.

The cost/ loss analysis is more complex. As for emigration..scandals soon blow over, last week scandal is old news top most people.
 
Sep 23, 2011
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Landis is a dreadful example - he was caught then denied for years, so is paying the price. I'm talking about the first person to openly admit guilt. Handled right this person would get a lot of sympathy.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Morbius said:
Landis is a dreadful example - he was caught then denied for years, so is paying the price. I'm talking about the first person to openly admit guilt. Handled right this person would get a lot of sympathy.
Like Hamilton giving his Olympic gold back?

About the brainwave of DW; BC/SKY/Murdock ----> FOX Network, aka the masters of indoctrination, they own the world wide press. Don't understand why an Aussie would sponsor a BC project though, kinda strange.
 
Morbius said:
Landis is a dreadful example - he was caught then denied for years, so is paying the price. I'm talking about the first person to openly admit guilt. Handled right this person would get a lot of sympathy.
Not from the UCI or most of monied cycling that's for sure.

From people that really, actually want cleaner athletics? Absolutely. But we aren't funding them with a Pro Team or a worldwide audience like the IOC.

Your intentions are good and the more the better!
 
Jun 8, 2010
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I wanna GB track bike!

BroDeal said:
I imagine what is putting people off is that BG has no intention of selling the bikes to anyone. That they are available is a fiction.

If not a single bike has been sold in two years then this is not a commercial product.
Sounded like a challenge to me... So, I sent an email to the folks at Uksports.gov.uk telling them I would like to buy a bike just like the Medal winners. I asked for specs and a price list. Here is the reply:

Many Thanks for your enquiry.

As you will appreciate we are currently very busy due to the London 2012 Olympic Games. We will be in touch with the details you have requested in due course.

Best Wishes,

Tom


Tom Baker
Commercial Officer
UK Sport


They don't have a price list handy? Ridiculous!
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Gnossos7 said:
Sounded like a challenge to me...

They don't have a price list handy? Ridiculous!
They're not going to make it easy as they don't want to actually sell you the bike. That much seems obvious. They want the bikes to be approved according to the regulations, not to be readily available.

They will obviously try and bore you into giving up. If you give up, then you can't say they wouldn't sell you a bike. It's a bit like any commercial organisation's "complaints" department. Such departments exist solely to make it very hard for you to make a formal complaint.

However, if you are persistent with such operations they reach the point where it is less hassle for them to give you what you want than to not give you what you want. Whilst they don't want to sell you a bike, they even more don't want a credible story in the media about you not being able to buy a bike.

Keep a detailed record every email, letter and phone call you make, and, of course, be prepared to actually buy the bike. If you get to the point where they say "It's yours for £15k" you'll look like a prize p*llock if you fold like a pack of cards.
 
Jun 12, 2010
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Like Hamilton giving his Olympic gold back?

About the brainwave of DW; BC/SKY/Murdock ----> FOX Network, aka the masters of indoctrination, they own the world wide press. Don't understand why an Aussie would sponsor a BC project though, kinda strange.
Murdock Isn't bothered about what nation, media corporations think in terms of continents / global market. The market is everyone.
A question worth pondering is were is this Sky/ BC/ UCI collaboration going?. All team sponsorships run there course..unless the intention is the ownership of the product.
There are soon to be 5 250 metre indoor tracks in the uk.....all to world championship "specification" ( there was a time when world champs were held on tracks of all sizes, indoors and out)..London ,Manchester,Newport, Derby and Edinburgh . Look on a map and see the even spread .
Its a potential "league" sport. For that to succeed heroes, villains, heroins need to be created and become household names. But first ya need the heroes.
Once you've created the product , ( look at event program changes that will have the widest appeal , drop the events that don't... make the events fast paced, glamorous and simple to understand.)...maybe introduce betting, Keirin racing is a gambling sport in Japan that has an audience of gamblers not sports lovers. I've been to a meeting and was astonished..was like going to the horses. Soon as a race was over it was betting slips in the air and off to place the next bet/ collect your winnings.
The heroes , villains and heroins will soon emerge, relationship storeys become publicly gossip , anyone step to far out of line, face don't fit is dispensable.
The road scene , particularly the GT,s and Monuments has a ready audience , a ready Heroes, Villains and Heroins situation, stories galore , intrigue , history and drama ,has attracted major tourism/ business interest as a marketing tool but failed in England to ever grip the public.
To achieve that Sky/BC/ UCI ( the business model) has to think big.
The TDF being the most obvious. The Olympic games also.
This is what it has achieved.

Now quite obviously some will think I'm wearing a tin foil hat here and indeed I might well be.
But the logics there and the fan base is changing rapidly and becoming much broader.
See how most every area of the sport stands to "benefit" from such proposals ?. Its a win, win, all round.
The only loser is the idealist.
 
Jun 12, 2010
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Morbius said:
Landis is a dreadful example - he was caught then denied for years, so is paying the price. I'm talking about the first person to openly admit guilt. Handled right this person would get a lot of sympathy.
Who,s gonna "handle it correctly"? a complicit media largely owned by the probably the biggest media mogul on the planet?
Sympathy aint gonna pay the persons bills or give them there career back.
 

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