Gilbert V Cancellara - who is the best one day rider of this generation?

[The Hitch]

I think if you asked people who said Canc is the best, who would win rvv and pr if Canc wasnt there, most would say Boonen. So in that sense nothing has changed.

 

[El Pistolero]

I think someone who has won 7 Monuments, beat Cancellara in 5 of those and won the WC deserves to be in this poll

 

[The Hitch]

I think someone who has won 7 Monuments, beat Cancellara in 5 of those and won the WC deserves to be in this poll

Yes he does, though you are better off arguing that he deserves to be in because hes better than Gilbert who only has 3 monuments at 2 races

 

[El Pistolero]

He's 2 years younger, he'll get his wins this season. His races are yet to come.

Gilbert also deserves to be in this poll. If you can't see that...

 

[The Hitch]

Gilbert also deserves to be in this poll. If you can't see that...

I never said he shouldnt.

All 3 deserve to be in the poll.

 

[El Pistolero]

I think if you asked people who said Canc is the best, who would win rvv and pr if Canc wasnt there, most would say Boonen. So in that sense nothing has changed.

Cancellara failed to win Roubaix last year without Boonen in it. It's not easy to win when you're marked.

 

[The Hitch]

Cancellara failed to win Roubaix last year without Boonen in it. It's not easy to win when you're marked.

Right but the idea is that Boonen wouldnt have won either, so nothing would have changed.

 

[mr. tibbs]

Right but the idea is that Boonen wouldnt have won either, so nothing would have changed.

Boonen in the final 50km of PR 2011 would have changed the race. Boonen would have followed and ridden with Cancellara when he first attacked, and they would have brought JVS back. There would have been no crying about Hushovd not helping.

 

[Boy_Downunder]

Very interesting read. I think that a few subjective terms in the question need to be clarified before the real crux of the argument can be tackled. However, feel free to ignore this post if you are not interested in pedantics and simply want to push the stock of your favourite cyclist. The three terms I am referring are: best; 'one day' and generation.

The former is the central focus of the argument, so I will leave that aside for the moment.

I agree with common belief that 'one day' races do not include time-trials. It refers to one day classics, most importantly (but not exclusively) the Five Monuments; Olympics and World RR Champs (The Big 7).

The definition of a generation is highly subjective. It must be determined both where the time period begun and finished. First of all, does this debate include cyclist's future 'one day' chances? Or is this 'generation' assumed to be over, and we are debating who is the best classics rider of the past generation? I believe the phrasing of the question "who is" is distinctly different from "who will be" thus we only include results which have actually occured, not the possibility of future chances. However, side-notes can be made highlighting the chance a cyclist could 'overtake' another in the coming years. This does raise problems however, because the Northern Classics of 2012 (which favour Boonen and Cancellara) have occured whilst those which favour Gilbert have not. Thus, giving the first two riders more opportunity of success in this 'generation'.

The next question, is when did the generation begin. If we assume that it finished today, or whenever you are posting, then I don't believe it could have started in 2009. Generations typically last longer than three or four years. Simply put, I believe the current 'generation' begun in 2005. Both generally in cycling (with the ProTour & Lance's last Tour) and specifically to these debate (Boonen & Gilbert achieved relatively significant classics success and Cancellara went into PR 2005 as a favourite until his crash).

Thus, I would conclude the generation in question is from 2005 until today.

Therefore, we can debate the real point of this argument - who is the best. Whilst I agree with stated three riders as the main candidates, it is important to remember even within the specified time period, Bettini won the Worlds twice and two Monuments and finished in the top-4 of Monuments a further three times.

Boonen, Cancellara, and Gilbert has made the podium in just as many of the Big 7 races as each other - 4. Whilst Boonen has done it 11 times, Cancellara 10 and Gilbert 8. Boonen and Cancellara have won 3 different Big 7 races, Gilbert has won 2. Boonen has won them 7 times, Cancellara 4 and Gilbert 3. Whilst, all 3 riders have won a lot of slightly less significant 'one day' races during this period. Gilbert other exploits are the most impressive with Fleche and Amstel, whilst not considered Monuments seem only marginally less difficult to win than LBL. The same cannot be said for Gent and E3.

All 3 have significant 'other' reasons. For example, Boonen and Cancellara non-classic success asks if they had focused more on the Big 7, and less on the Tour de France how would they have fared? Second, Gilbert's youth and being midway through 2012 means that the statistics, and outcome, could be different in only a months time.

In short, by sheer quantity - Tom Boonen by a whisker over Cancellara. However, if Boonen manages to win San Remo next year then he will cement his place has the greatest classics rider of his generation.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Boonen, Boonen, Boonen

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Boonen has been the best, mybe not the strongest, but the best

 

[Froome19]

Yeh Boonen should have been included
But it is too late now....

 

[Parrulo]

Yeh Boonen should have been included
But it is too late now....

iirc you had a pretty strong opinion that boonen was past it . . .

 

[Froome19]

iirc you had a pretty strong opinion that boonen was past it . . .

Indeed

 

[Caruut]

We can still discuss who is better from the two of them.

 

[Forunculo]

We can still discuss who is better from the two of them.

Cancellara

 

[El Pistolero]

We can still discuss who is better from the two of them.

Ronde van Vlaanderen: 2005, 2006, 2012.
Paris-Roubaix: 2005, 2008, 2009, 2012.
World championship road race: 2005.
Gent-Wevelgem: 2004, 2011, 2012.
E3 Harelbeke: 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2012.
Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne: 2007, 2009.
Dwars door Vlaanderen: 2007.
Belgian Championship road race: 2009

Versus:

Paris-Roubaix: 2006, 2010.
Ronde van Vlaanderen: 2010.
Milano-San Remo: 2008.
E3 Harelbeke: 2010, 2011.
Monte Paschi Strade Bianche: 2008, 2012.

===

Clear winner for me.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

races like dwars door vlaanderen, kbk, and the belgian road championship should not be on that list however

1 san remo is worth more than 5 kbk victories

 

[El Pistolero]

races like dwars door vlaanderen, kbk, and the belgian road championship should not be on that list however

1 san remo is worth more than 5 kbk victories

I'm including all their one day race victories except Cancellara's Suisse road race wins cause I don't give a **** about those.

Strade Bianche shouldn't be on it as well then by the way.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

belgian road champs don't count either... come on, see even last year when gilbert won there's still cammaerts, hovelynck, polazzi etc in the top 10

i take no national championship seriously actually

 

[theyoungest]

belgian road champs don't count either... come on, see even last year when gilbert won there's still cammaerts, hovelynck, polazzi etc in the top 10

i take no national championship seriously actually

You don't? Don't you think Pim Ligthart is the best cyclist of our country? Ahead of Bram Tankink and Reinier Honig

 

[Wallace]

I'm including all their one day race victories except Cancellara's Suisse road race wins cause I don't give a **** about those.

Strade Bianche shouldn't be on it as well then by the way.

Sometimes on these forums I feel like my son's kindergarden teacher, telling everyone "they're both great, they're just great in different ways." Fabian C. has always prided himself on being an all-arounder, so you can't assess his greatness without including his four World's ITT wins & Olympic ITT win, along with his victories at Tirreno–Adriatico and the Tour de Suisse. He's even talked about trying for LBL. Boonen is a specialist in the Belgian cobbles: he's tried for MSR, but you never really get the feeling that his heart's in it--not nearly the way every fiber of his being is concentrated for Flanders and P-R. Cancellara might be changing his objectives as he gets older, and might be more focused on these races, but for the bulk of his career he's had a much larger sense of the racing season. Boonen will be remembered as the greatest cobbled rider of our time, Cancellara at the greatest ITT rider and a dominant classics rider. They're both amazing to watch. Now, would anyone like some graham crackers before their nap?

 

[El Pistolero]

Okay then, but what about FC's four World's ITT wins & Olympic ITT?

When one says one day riders they mean classic races and not time trials. Otherwise we could turn this thread into "who's the best time trial specialist?"

A one day race is where multiple people are battling it out against each other at the same time: not always does the strongest win. In a time trial the strongest usually wins because there's little tactic involved. Why do you think a road race title is much more valuable than the time trial title?

Michael Rogers isn't a one day rider now is he?

 

[Flamin]

Ronde van Vlaanderen: 2005, 2006, 2012.
Paris-Roubaix: 2005, 2008, 2009, 2012.
World championship road race: 2005.
Gent-Wevelgem: 2004, 2011, 2012.
E3 Harelbeke: 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2012.
Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne: 2007, 2009.
Dwars door Vlaanderen: 2007.
Belgian Championship road race: 2009

Versus:

Paris-Roubaix: 2006, 2010.
Ronde van Vlaanderen: 2010.
Milano-San Remo: 2008.
E3 Harelbeke: 2010, 2011.
Monte Paschi Strade Bianche: 2008, 2012.

===

Clear winner for me.

Main conclusion I draw from this list is that Boonen is a better sprinter than Cancellara.

 

[El Pistolero]

Boonen won 2 Roubaix's solo and also one Flanders. Same as Cancellara

A sprint is a better weapon than having time trial skills, that's what makes Boonen better than Cancellara. Besides, in 2008 it was very clear who was the strongest man of the race. Sprint or not...