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Giro d'Italia Giro d‘Italia 2024 Stage 15, Manerba del Garda-Livigno (Mottolino), 222 km

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I agree with you that Pogi is one of the most aggressive riders in the peloton; that he has both made brave moves and showman-moves (compliment!) regularly.

And I hope your defence of riders racing tactically sound also extends to the other Slovenian mountain sprinter.

I don't know if you're confusing me with someone else (history certainly says that you don't) but I don't recall having been that critical of Roglic whom I really like too.

But I understand if people think he rides too defensively at times. I might have chipped in, I don't particularly recall that.

Pogi often talks about wanting to put on a show, that is an undeniable difference between him and Roglic :)
 
Because the riders made the race and the smart-ass posters said nothing was going to happen.

Now they have to apply smart-ass semantics to uphold their judgment of the course which led to a pretty epic stage.
If you had actually engaged in an object-level discussion of expectations for the stage instead of only moaning about others' comments, we could have found out if we disagreed or not about what could possibly happen.
 
And once again I feel sorry for the second. After all Quintana has been through, winning the queen stage would have been a statement. He still made a small victory sign, because he's shown he still has it. He'll have another try next week.

Pogacar showed no mercy for anyone. His team did just enough to bring him within three minutes. As soon as he accelerated with 13 km to go there was only one possible outcome. Instead of just defending the pink jersey he wants to win the Giro in a big fashion. This is the stage that will be remembered as one of his big exploits. He's truly beginning to look like a pink cannibal.
 
If you had actually engaged in an object-level discussion of expectations for the stage instead of only moaning about others' comments,

That wouldn't really be interesting to me but when 20-odd posters cry and whine about what an awful stage this 222 kilometre tappone was going to be (mind you, many of the same people who also bemoan the fact that races are getting shorter and shorter), I get as exasperated as when I watch Alaphilippe initiate a silly 2-man attack 130 kilometres out on a punchy stage with no chance of success.

I realise it's easy for me to win such an argument and I realise a 2 kilometre wall at the end of such a stage is not the best idea to entice early action but it's still depressing to me that so many people are so pessimistic about the sport they devote so much time to. And I also realise that if UAE had been a bit stronger, you probably would have ended up being right.

But you didn't.
 
He still attacked from far out a lot of times (especially in 2022), sadly Rick closed his eyes every time that happened.

Last year, it was closer for a long time, and it looked like he could win by taking small chunks whereas it was always unlikely he would succeed in dropping Vingegaard from far out.

But alas, Rick is always playing clever and chastising riders for stupid tactics, yet when Pogi (always) races tactically cleverly, he shall be chastised for not attacking. Goalposts will always be moved, and Pogi can never win.
Pogi does lots of things. Riding 'tactically' ain't one of them. Don't need tactics when you can you just disappear into the distance at a moments notice. & that's why we love/hate* him



*delete as applicable
 
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The "problem" is that this version of Thomas is not the Thomas of previous years, and it's something normal, he is 37/38 right?
Based on what though? I guess his age gives reason to think he might be on the decline, but there are counterexamples to this. Valverde was argubly having the best season of his career aged 37 (before crashing out of the Tour). He then proceeded to become world champion aged 38 and finish 2nd in the Vuelta aged 39, which was his best result in a GT since when he was 32.

Argubly Thomas' level is not as high as when he won the Tour, but it seems to have remained pretty consistent over the last few years. Look at his results in the 2019 Tour and tell me he is doing significantly worse than that in this Giro. Similarly I don't see much evidence of Thomas being worse than in the 2022 Tour and the 2023 Giro.

The competition is clearly rubbish, but I don't think it's hisorically bad. Martinez is a great rider who has never pieced together a good GT, but looking at his gc results in smaller races and at isolated climbing performances in GTs it should not be shocking that he is a podium contender once he performs like that consistently over 3 weeks. O'Connor finished 4th in the TdF a few years ago. Bardet has multiple TdF podiums and was perhaps the favorite to win the Giro two years ago at the time he had to abandon. Tiberi and Arensman simply aren't big names because of how young they still are. And even then, am I supposed to be shocked at a gc field so weak Arensman can sit in 6th? Because that's literally where he finished last years Giro.

People naming all the riders who could podium this race have a point, but the Giro field being significantly weaker than the Tour field is simply not that unusual. This has been mentioned before but in 2015 Andrey f*cking Amador finished in fourth with Tromimov only dropping out of the top 5 in the last two mountain stages. And nobody is looking back at that Giro using it as a big slight against the riders on the podium.
 
I don't know if you're confusing me with someone else (history certainly says that you don't) but I don't recall having been that critical of Roglic whom I really like too.

But I understand if people think he rides too defensively at times. I might have chipped in, I don't particularly recall that.

Pogi often talks about wanting to put on a show, that is an undeniable difference between him and Roglic :)
Roglic is less about the talk than almost any rider. We can't be sure if he is being cryptic, dense or misleading about projections of form or tactics. Most other riders respond in cliches, alone.
Gotta like some variety.
 
Based on what though? I guess his age gives reason to think he might be on the decline, but there are counterexamples to this. Valverde was argubly having the best season of his career aged 37 (before crashing out of the Tour). He then proceeded to become world champion aged 38 and finish 2nd in the Vuelta aged 39, which was his best result in a GT since when he was 32.

Argubly Thomas' level is not as high as when he won the Tour, but it seems to have remained pretty consistent over the last few years. Look at his results in the 2019 Tour and tell me he is doing significantly worse than that in this Giro. Similarly I don't see much evidence of Thomas being worse than in the 2022 Tour and the 2023 Giro.

The competition is clearly rubbish, but I don't think it's hisorically bad. Martinez is a great rider who has never pieced together a good GT, but looking at his gc results in smaller races and at isolated climbing performances in GTs it should not be shocking that he is a podium contender once he performs like that consistently over 3 weeks. O'Connor finished 4th in the TdF a few years ago. Bardet has multiple TdF podiums and was perhaps the favorite to win the Giro two years ago at the time he had to abandon. Tiberi and Arensman simply aren't big names because of how young they still are. And even then, am I supposed to be shocked at a gc field so weak Arensman can sit in 6th? Because that's literally where he finished last years Giro.

People naming all the riders who could podium this race have a point, but the Giro field being significantly weaker than the Tour field is simply not that unusual. This has been mentioned before but in 2015 Andrey f*cking Amador finished in fourth with Tromimov only dropping out of the top 5 in the last two mountain stages. And nobody is looking back at that Giro using it as a big slight against the riders on the podium.
Looking at his perfomances in the mountains and in time trials he appear to have declined this year, compared to last year. It wouldn't matter anyways, Pogacar beat every version if Thomas.

I guess the strongest Thomas i saw was the Thomas of the Tour 2022, not the Thomas of the Tour 2018, even if he won that Tour.
 
Based on what though? I guess his age gives reason to think he might be on the decline, but there are counterexamples to this. Valverde was argubly having the best season of his career aged 37 (before crashing out of the Tour). He then proceeded to become world champion aged 38 and finish 2nd in the Vuelta aged 39, which was his best result in a GT since when he was 32.

Argubly Thomas' level is not as high as when he won the Tour, but it seems to have remained pretty consistent over the last few years. Look at his results in the 2019 Tour and tell me he is doing significantly worse than that in this Giro. Similarly I don't see much evidence of Thomas being worse than in the 2022 Tour and the 2023 Giro.

The competition is clearly rubbish, but I don't think it's hisorically bad. Martinez is a great rider who has never pieced together a good GT, but looking at his gc results in smaller races and at isolated climbing performances in GTs it should not be shocking that he is a podium contender once he performs like that consistently over 3 weeks. O'Connor finished 4th in the TdF a few years ago. Bardet has multiple TdF podiums and was perhaps the favorite to win the Giro two years ago at the time he had to abandon. Tiberi and Arensman simply aren't big names because of how young they still are. And even then, am I supposed to be shocked at a gc field so weak Arensman can sit in 6th? Because that's literally where he finished last years Giro.

People naming all the riders who could podium this race have a point, but the Giro field being significantly weaker than the Tour field is simply not that unusual. This has been mentioned before but in 2015 Andrey f*cking Amador finished in fourth with Tromimov only dropping out of the top 5 in the last two mountain stages. And nobody is looking back at that Giro using it as a big slight against the riders on the podium.
Thomas getting cleaned by Arensman in the ITTs is a pretty fair indicator his level isnt even what it was last year. And especially compared to 2022 when he was responding to attacks and consistently dropping everyone else, and got very close in the ITT he was much better than now

Martinez I see as as a 2.5th tier guy having his 2020 Porte Tour. He was pretty good that 2021 Giro.

Bardet just hasnt strung together a good GT for many years now and he basically still cant decise if hes a stage hunter or not. Hes just not strong competition here.

And as for 2015 Giro, Landa was a nobody but he came in and threw some *** punches. The direct equivalent here, Lipowitz, got sent home in week 1. And Aru, while having his wak moments, won the Vuelta that same year. If you look at the field now you dont expect any of them to top 5 the Vuelta apart from Pogacar
 
I don't know if you're confusing me with someone else (history certainly says that you don't) but I don't recall having been that critical of Roglic whom I really like too.

But I understand if people think he rides too defensively at times. I might have chipped in, I don't particularly recall that.

Pogi often talks about wanting to put on a show, that is an undeniable difference between him and Roglic :)
You know what, you are completely right. I went back to where I had a hunch of such complaints, and they only came from other posters with a *** avatar.