Giro d'Italia Stage 19: Brescia - Aprica (195km)

[High Cotton]

According to the cyclingnews report "Scarponi gifted stage win by Liquigas leader duo".

Really ?? I'm not disputing there may well have been an agreement that Liqugas wouldn't contest the stage win if Scarponi worked with them but to say it was gifted suggests that he wouldn't have won a straight sprint - in which case I was watching a different race

Maybe he would have, but the fact that neither Basso nor Nibali contested the finish makes it seem that much more likely that there was an agreement...unless I'm missing your point...

 

[Barrus]

That is the problem, this is the main forum for racing which every visitor comes to 1st. It sends the message to every visitor to this forum that we accept doping and support those who have been convicted of it.

I post here despite this rule as a form of protest, the rule has given up on fighting for a clean sport and I don't like it. If I get banned for posting my views so be it I will not conform to a set of rules that allow dopers to be praised.

Than there is nothing more for me to do than to put you on ignore and report you. I myself am not a fan of doping and the majority of my posts are in the clinic, I am often discussing this very topic. BUT here in this section of the forum, I only come to discuss the races, tactics and other things associated with this.

About today: Great race, truly this year is the best Grand Tour I've ever seen. Arroyo descend was breathtaking. Only a shame the group of 5 didn't work together near the end, it seemed like the stage to L'Aquila when nobody wanted to work for the other. It is really this which lost all of these people the giro, if they had worked together, I believe they would have catched Basso, Nibali and Scarponi, or at least would have finished within a minute. From what I saw only Arroyo really gave it his all, the others only occasionally helped. On the Mortirolo Evans once again gave in to, what I believe to be, his greatest weakness, trying to follow a better climber no matter what the costs until he completely blows, it is probably to late, but if he learned to ride his own tempo he would get better results on the climbs I believe.

But really the young guys surprised me once again, Porte Kiserlovksi, Mollema and Kruijswijk all coming in together at only 5 minutes or so, really good riding from them, probably a good notion of the future mountain men and perhaps the future GC men. I would never have expected Rabo to do it this good at the Giro, 3 riders in the top 20, amazing

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Maybe he would have, but the fact that neither Basso nor Nibali contested the finish makes it seem that much more likely that there was an agreement...unless I'm missing your point...

My point is you can't gift a stage win if you weren't going to win it anyway

 

[tgsgirl]

My point is you can't gift a stage win if you weren't going to win it anyway

My point is unless you have a time machine and/or a functioning crystal ball, you can't know for sure he would've won it.

 

[Mellow Velo]

to all of those saying cadel is not good enough: that's silly. cadel is plenty good enough. he just needs a team, 30-50 more flat tt kms and to stop losing time on bullshyte stages and situations.

'Cept bullshyte stages and situations are part 'n' parcel of GT's.

Once again he has proven himself able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

The poor man's Raymond Poulidor.

 

[Pancreas]

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but I think Nibali could have won the giro today.

If he made a descent like he can, he would have gained +- 2.5 minutes on Sastre, Arroyo, Evans and Basso (he would have definately dropped back in the descent).

I think he might have kept that lead and even increased it on the final climb, so that would surely put him in front of Basso. Considering tomorrows stage and the TT, he could deal with Arroyo too.

It's logical of course that Liquigas played the card Basso, but it does give you stuff to think about...

 

[Eyeballs Out]

My point is unless you have a time machine and/or a functioning crystal ball, you can't know for sure he would've won it.

Well to state it as a gift (at least in my understanding of the term) is saying for certain he wouldn't have whereas I would say it was 80% likely he would have

Valverde to Szymd on Ventoux is gifting a stage, this wasn't IMO

 

[High Cotton]

My point is you can't gift a stage win if you weren't going to win it anyway

...and my point was that you don't know that they wouldn't have. They look like the never even contested his surge, which is in-line with them gifting him the stage, so I don't know how you can say they weren't going to win it anyways???

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Than there is nothing more for me to do than to put you on ignore and report you. I myself am not a fan of doping and the majority of my posts are in the clinic, I am often discussing this very topic. BUT here in this section of the forum, I only come to discuss the races, tactics and other things associated with this.

I sometimes wonder, what we, as human beings could be capable of if we all were as smart as we are at some moments ALL THE TIME.

The reason the thread (and yes I know this thread is about to become completely dormant) is clogged up with back and forth are not the troll's postings, it is everyone's response that is the fecking problem.

If you people would J U S T S T O P R E S P O N D I N G to trolls they wouldn't post nearly as much and the thread wouldn't be derailed and clogged.

In short: The troll doesn't derail the thread. YOU DO !!!

Some of you respond compulsively and then bemoan what a problem the troll is. I am bemoaning what a problem YOU ARE. Stupid.

 

[Barrus]

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but I think Nibali could have won the giro today.

If he made a descent like he can, he would have gained +- 2.5 minutes on Sastre, Arroyo, Evans and Basso (he would have definately dropped back in the descent).

I think he might have kept that lead and even increased it on the final climb, so that would surely put him in front of Basso. Considering tomorrows stage and the TT, he could deal with Arroyo too.

It's logical of course that Liquigas played the card Basso, but it does give you stuff to think about...

I think without Basso he would never have gotten such a lead on the mortirolo and would never have gained on the way to Aprica after the descend, he would have been massacred on the last part had he been alone

 

[tgsgirl]

Well to state it as a gift (at least in my understanding of the term) is saying for certain he wouldn't have whereas I would say it was 80% likely he would have

Then we have a different interpretation of the term "to give". Mine just includes people giving things, without any further speculation about what could've, might've happened.

I'll include a smiley to indicate that this is a friendly message:

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Than there is nothing more for me to do than to put you on ignore and report you. I myself am not a fan of doping and the majority of my posts are in the clinic, I am often discussing this very topic. BUT here in this section of the forum, I only come to discuss the races, tactics and other things associated with this.

I sometimes wonder, what we, as human beings could be capable of if we all were as smart as we are at some moments ALL THE TIME.

The reason the thread (and yes I know this thread is about to become completely dormant) is clogged up with back and forth are not the troll's postings, it is everyone's response that is the fecking problem.

If you people would

J U S T .
S T O P .
R E S P O N D I N G .

to trolls they wouldn't post nearly as much and the thread wouldn't be derailed and clogged.

In short: The troll doesn't derail the thread. YOU DO !!!

Some of you respond compulsively and then bemoan what a problem the troll is. I am bemoaning what a problem YOU ARE. Stupid.

No, Barrus, I am not mad at you personally, I am just mad at anyone who responds a single time to these clowns. You give them exactly what they want.

 

[High Cotton]

YOU ARE. Stupid.

No you are!


...oh wait.

 

[Barrus]

No, Barrus, I am not mad at you personally, I am just mad at anyone who responds a single time to these clowns. You give them exactly what they want.

Yeah, I know, something compulsive of me, I'm a bit to stubborn to really shut up, have the same problem in real life, really something I should work on. But did you really need to say it twice?

Wait you did say it twice, didn't you, or am I starting to see things?

 

[ScottyMuser]

Well to state it as a gift (at least in my understanding of the term) is saying for certain he wouldn't have whereas I would say it was 80% likely he would have

Valverde to Szymd on Ventoux is gifting a stage, this wasn't IMO

No, that is definitely not the usual definition of the term gifting. THe use of the word on here usually (and in this context) purely means that x rider(s) allowed y rider to win. Full stop. Doesn't matter if he could have, should have or would have. It#s like claiming a present is something a person definitely wouldn't/couldn't have got it for themself. ANY time when rider(s) don't compete for the win/place and allow another rider to get it is gifting - ot doesn't even matter if he is the fastest sprinter there, if the others don't actually compete then its a gift.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Yeah, I know, something compulsive of me, I'm a bit to stubborn to really shut up, have the same problem in real life, really something I should work on. But did you really need to say it twice?

Everytime I re-edited, it posted a whole new post, for a minute there were 3 posts, then there was 2 for a while until I discovered I hadn't deleted all the unedited ones.

I prolly coulda posted it 50 times in 50 separate posts and not create the havoc that one juvenile jack@ss was able to create.

I think we need to start putting a temporary ban (like an hour) on anyone who responds to a known troll. I can forgive the fact that the first 3 or 4 posts sometimes aren't so obvious, but after that....b!tchslaps for evryone, on me.

 

[Francois the Postman]

I think without Basso he would never have gotten such a lead on the mortirolo and would never have gained on the way to Aprica after the descend, he would have been massacred on the last part had he been alone

Who says he would be alone? No-one says take Basso out of the picture. Basso wouldn't have been here without Nibali either. So why is the argument that Nibali wouldn't have been here without Basso? Who says he would have been without?

It is the direction of support, not the presence, that is the focus of the discussion.

I think the point argued is that Nibali with Basso's help might have been better for Liquigas than Basso with Nibali's help.

2min30's worth better over the Giro so far? Yes, I think so.

To me, it appears that Nibali held back a lot more for the sake of Basso then the reverse. I wish we would have seen what had happened here if Nibali was allowed to go on the descend.

But we will never know.

 

[Barrus]

Who says he would be alone? No-one says take Basso out of the picture. Basso would,'t have been here without Nibali either. So why is it an argument that Nibali wouldn't have been here without Basso?

I think the point argued is that Nibali with Basso's help might have been better for Liquigas than Basso with Nibali's help.

2min30's worth better over the Giro so far? Yes, I think so.

To me, it appears that Nibali held back a lot more for the sake of Basso then the reverse. I wish we would have seen what had happened here if Nibali was allowed to go on the descend.

But we will never know.

I'm am more concerned with the last part of the race, if he would have done the descend all out he would have been alone for the last few kilometres. I think in that case he would never have retained that lead, without the help of Scarponi and Basso, especially if you saw that Basso really gave it his all in the last few kilometres

 

[HL2037]

Ah, it seemed to me that Nibali was hanging on for dear life on the last climb. But who knows. Anyway, I think Liquigas have played their cards very well taking full advantage of the fact that they have two great climbers, one of which is also a great descender.

 

[Francois the Postman]

I'm am more concerned with the last part of the race, if he would have done the descend all out he would have been alone for the last few kilometres. I think in that case he would never have retained that lead, without the help of Scarponi and Basso, especially if you saw that Basso really gave it his all in the last few kilometres

He might have lost some ground against Basso and Scarponi, but he would have started from an advantage too. The interesting question is if he would have lost time against the folk behind the front 3. Nibali lost a lot of time going down. People were closing the gap rapidly, and it was Basso who was the limiting factor in that front group. If Nibali had gone down as he has shown he is capable of doing, I doubt if any of the riders behind them would have gotten closer to him, Arroyo maybe the only one, and not much I presume. So it matters not one bit what Basso and Scarponi did. The real question is if the group behind them would have made a net gain or loss.

I think Nibali would have been able to tackle the last climb and keep ahead of Basso and Scarponi, although the gap at the top would have been smaller than it would have been at the base.

Now Nibali already lost a lot of time going down. Time he had to regain going up just to get back to where he was. Sure, Basso and Scarponi made the climb easier for him.

In total he would have gained time compared to where he is at now. And this isn't the only stage where I think he lost time by having to support Basso. I can't think of a single one where he won time because of Basso, and a couple where he burned himself out for Basso (which is also a additional reason he ain't as fresh now as he could have been - this is him riding in support!). So I was wondering what would have happened if they had decided after the mud bath (or during) that Nibali was the one they would ride for.

Szmyd and Basso to support Nibali throughout. I think Liquigas would have been in a better spot than the good one they are now. Speculation, that's all.

 

[luckyboy]

That was a pretty entertaining stage. Amazing descending by Arroyo in particular. I thought after the TT that there was no way Evans'd win, and there's no chance now. That group really died on that last climb. I think David Harmon was being a bit optimistic offering Evans up for rider of the day.

Also, Nibali for 2nd Though it doesn't look as likely now he will do as well in the Tour as I had hoped..

 

[Angliru]

He's worked out that the inscenant beeping noise wasn't his heart rate monitor going into the red, just that he'd left his phone in his pocket and ACF was sending him text mesages every three seconds.

LOL!! ACF you have to admit that one was funny!

 

[maltiv]

Ultimately I think it's a shame that the group behind didn't work better. Arroyo deserved to keep that jersey after doing some absolutely excellent downhilling. Also a bit sad that the GC is closed up before the last two stages.

 

[dgodave]

Ultimately I think it's a shame that the group behind didn't work better. Arroyo deserved to keep that jersey after doing some absolutely excellent downhilling. Also a bit sad that the GC is closed up before the last two stages.

Agreed. I wanted a coordinated chase to the max...
.

 

[Cobblestones]

Ultimately I think it's a shame that the group behind didn't work better. Arroyo deserved to keep that jersey after doing some absolutely excellent downhilling. Also a bit sad that the GC is closed up before the last two stages.

I wondered about that, too, but maybe everybody in there was simply cooked. I think Arroyo tried to drop them but couldn't, same with Vino at one point. Evans was probably in the red and Sastre just not in any good form this Giro. I think everyone in there tried to recover, no one was able to lead and do decent pulls.