Grand Depart 2017 in Germany?

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

Good length, but surely Düsseldorf has nicer things to offer than a fairground?

Edit: anyway, I seriously hope that most big riders go to the Giro that year. Please.

Because of the 100th edition or whatever they are celebrating next year? Yeah, wont happen, besides it will make for a more boring TdF, the Giro doesnt need all the best riders to make it attractive

 

[Brullnux]

Ik, but it would be a nice sign of respect, and cool to see Quintana vs Nibali vs Froome vs Aru (vs Contador? One can always hope) in Nibali's and Aru's home turf.

 

[phanatic]

A prologue is a nice way to start, followed by a classics homage stage like Dusseldorf-Liege-Bastogne-Trier, cutting through the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg along the way.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

Don'r see any problems with Grand Departs outside France, Yorkshire was good, big crowds a chance for people to see live the worlds biggest bike race which they would not have otherwise, but this is CN forums and you will always get moaners

It's not a matter of moaning or not moaning. Pull routes from the past 10 years and see how entire French regions have been completely ignored, while their inhabitants, a.k.a. the tax payers are paying for Police/Gendarmerie salaries. Outsoide starts should be an exception, not a rule as it has pretty much become. A finish in Sestriere, a stage in Belgium or Spain, OK. Not 3-4 days in GB. Or Germany.

 

[Christian]

Re:

Düsseldorf would be cool. Could be a good intro to the race with something like:

1) Düsseldorf prologue
2) Köln - Frankfurt (mostly flattish in the Rhine basin, maybe Mammolshainer Berg around 25km out)
3) Mainz - Trier (hilly stage in Rhine-Moselle area)
4) Trier, Saarbrücken or Luxembourg-Ville - somewhere in France (if Saarbrücken, we might be lucky and get something like Gérardmer)

Lots of nice scenery and hills in the Hunsrück medium mountain range as well. Possibility to go towards Aachen and into Belgium and the plateau of Hohes Venn (Eupen, Malmédy)

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Düsseldorf is now officially a candidate for the Grand Départ.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

Good length, but surely Düsseldorf has nicer things to offer than a fairground?

Edit: anyway, I seriously hope that most big riders go to the Giro that year. Please.

Because of the 100th edition or whatever they are celebrating next year? Yeah, wont happen, besides it will make for a more boring TdF, the Giro doesnt need all the best riders to make it attractive

Bit late to the party, but it's only the 99th edition.


(At least according to Wikipedia)

 

[staubsauger]

Re: Re:

Good length, but surely Düsseldorf has nicer things to offer than a fairground?

Edit: anyway, I seriously hope that most big riders go to the Giro that year. Please.

Because of the 100th edition or whatever they are celebrating next year? Yeah, wont happen, besides it will make for a more boring TdF, the Giro doesnt need all the best riders to make it attractive

If RCS throws in enough epic cols certainly Nibali, Aru, Landa, Quintana maybe even Contador and one Frenchie all gonna be there.

That said, I think Düsseldorf better should've gone for a Giro start with a nice sprinters prolog along the Düsseldorfer Kö!

But these are just my 2 cents'

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

Good length, but surely Düsseldorf has nicer things to offer than a fairground?

Edit: anyway, I seriously hope that most big riders go to the Giro that year. Please.

Because of the 100th edition or whatever they are celebrating next year? Yeah, wont happen, besides it will make for a more boring TdF, the Giro doesnt need all the best riders to make it attractive

Bit late to the party, but it's only the 99th edition.


(At least according to Wikipedia)

2017 is the 100th Giro. 2016 is the 99th. Düsseldorf is in 2017 (allegedly).

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Re:

Düsseldorf would be cool. Could be a good intro to the race with something like:

1) Düsseldorf prologue
2) Köln - Frankfurt (mostly flattish in the Rhine basin, maybe Mammolshainer Berg around 25km out)
3) Mainz - Trier (hilly stage in Rhine-Moselle area)
4) Trier, Saarbrücken or Luxembourg-Ville - somewhere in France (if Saarbrücken, we might be lucky and get something like Gérardmer)

OR
3) Frankfurt, Offenbach, Darmstadt - Heidelberg (stage including Königstuhl near the finish for an early intermediate stage)
4) Karlsruhe - somewhere in France (probably somewhere like Nancy, as if they do Königstuhl they probably won't want to do much in the Vosges)

Köln > Nürburgring as second stage on Sunday would be nice. But of course this is not very attractive, they will do everything to favor the german riders. So we will see a sprint for sure. And Nürburgring is bankrupt. Race design wise, I would go for the Green Hell of course.

 

[Steven Roots]

Like Tonton, thats really not for me.

I can live with some rare starts on a foreign country, and regular stage finishes in cities close to the border, but now, we're way past this point.
3 starts of the last 4 were done out of France, (Liège, Leeds, Utrecht), with another one in 2017, that just sucks for the fans forgotten in several regions in France. Just because they're not willing to throw cash away, they wont see the Tour...

And just to make things worse, i have nothing against the city itself, but Dusseldorf ?
Its more than 270km from Longwy and the border. Considering thats its also the year of the 100th Giro, we'll have at least 3 stages outside of France...


Poitou-Charentes did not see the Tour since 2007. GB and Netherlands both hosted the start of the race twice since that very same year...

 

[Broken_Leg]

the tax payers are paying for Police/Gendarmerie salaries

Are you sure ? I heard that they were "on loan" to ASO who took all the costs
(but since I can't remember where I heard it I may be mistaken ... all the more as I cannot see how they keep police powers while under loan to a private firm)

I can live with some rare starts on a foreign country, and regular stage finishes in cities close to the border, but now, we're way past this point.

Yup, it put all the more an emphasis on a foreign Grand Depart when these remain a rarity, for a given occasion (UK in 2012 because of the Olympic Games for example).

At least, we still have the arrival in Paris.
I fear it will soon be at Marne la Vallee when Disneyland will make a higher bid than Paris ...

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

Good length, but surely Düsseldorf has nicer things to offer than a fairground?

Edit: anyway, I seriously hope that most big riders go to the Giro that year. Please.

Because of the 100th edition or whatever they are celebrating next year? Yeah, wont happen, besides it will make for a more boring TdF, the Giro doesnt need all the best riders to make it attractive

Bit late to the party, but it's only the 99th edition.


(At least according to Wikipedia)

2017 is the 100th Giro. 2016 is the 99th. Düsseldorf is in 2017 (allegedly).

Well... I bolded the bit that might have caused the confusion, Valv.Piti wrote 'next year'.

 

[Brullnux]

Ah right. Missed that bit. Then you're correct

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Good news for Bora if this does happen. It would mean that their invite would be pretty much guaranteed.

 

[Broken_Leg]

And now the 2018 Grand Depart is rumored to be in Denmark ....


Let's wait for the 2021 Tour.
I will start in Singapore and have 19 stages outside of France - but hey, i's still TdF, stage 20 is Alpe d'Huez (3 times) and stage 21 on Champs Elysee ...

 

[Valv.Piti]

Its only 3 stages, tho. Its not that bad..... and I would lie if I said i wasnt biased since I come from Denmark, so I obviously welcome that fact that Denmark is bidding on the Grand Depart, but I agree with the consensus that the rule should be it should start in France rather than the exception. That said, Denmark has some incredibly shitty cycling terrain where pretty much only the Vejle-area is capable of splitting things up (apart from crosswinds, obviously). And if Denmark gets it, there WILL be a stage in finishing in Vejle, known from Post Denmark where they do Kiddesvej 4 times on a little, but pretty explosive circuit. I couldnt imagine they will do a circuit to climb it multiple times, but there are also some other pretty spicy, albeit very short climbs in the area. Think of the finishing climb of the stage Nibali won in 2014 in England and divide the length with 2.

So, one stage in København at Sjælland (the half-island where København is situated at), one going from Sjælland to Jylland over Storebælt (that will be a mighty sight, so thats at least a plus) and Lillebælt and one finishing in Vejle would be my guess. The first stage being a Prologue in inner København, second probably almost completely flat and the last one decently hilly with a sharp finale for the likes of Sagan and Matthews.

 

[Broken_Leg]

Its only 3 stages, tho. Its not that bad..... and I would lie if I said i wasnt biased since I come from Denmark

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against this city for a Depart or against Denmark, and I do not fear for the quality of the racing (2014 in England was quite good).
It's the repetition of starts outside of France to the highest bid which is disagreable.

From 2010 to now 2018 (if the rumor is true), there have been only 2 starts in France (2013 & 2016).

 

[lemon cheese cake]

Its only 3 stages, tho. Its not that bad..... and I would lie if I said i wasnt biased since I come from Denmark

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against this city for a Depart or against Denmark, and I do not fear for the quality of the racing (2014 in England was quite good).
It's the repetition of starts outside of France to the highest bid which is disagreable.

From 2010 to now 2018 (if the rumor is true), there have been only 2 starts in France (2013 & 2016).

And in 2011. They started in Vendee then.

 

[Broken_Leg]

You're right, I missed 2011.

That would still be six out of nine starts outside of France.

 

[RedheadDane]

I'd be lying if I said that I wouldn't absolutely love for the Tour to start in Denmark one day, but, yeah, 2018 would probably be too soon. But 2020-somethings, with all the previous stars of course being in France, perhaps some of the less frequently visited areas; a return to Corsica would be cool.
As for the route; honestly I'm not so keen on Copenhagen getting it, they always get the big stuff - well, almost always - would be nice to show the rest of the World that Denmark is more than Copenhagen.

One thing I'm wondering is if it would be possible to make some sort of cooperation with Germany so that instead of having 2-3 stages in Denmark and then a long transfer to France, they could start in Denmark and pass through Germany on their way back to France, with a couple of more 'regular-sized' transfers on the way.
An idea could be starting in the southern part of Jutland, perhaps with a prologue/short ITT up Kiddesvej, because; why not?
Then a stage close to the border in the marshes of Southwest Jutland with the race passing into Germany and continuing along the North Sea.
Finally a stage starting somewhat down in the middle-part of Germany and crossing back into France. However, I'm slightly geographically challenged here, so they might have to go through Luxembourg as well, but sure "we" could get them in on it as well.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Afraid I think that could only be done with some seriously long transfers; Germany is simply too big to do in one or one and a half stages from Schleswig-Holstein to the French border; Åbenrå to Hamburg all on the Autobahn is a full stage length, Bremen to Dortmund is a pan flat 240km+ on non-Autobahn traffic, then you'd have to transfer across the Ruhrgebiet to Köln to get somewhere you could reasonably get into France from - and even then, it'd be 240km by fastest route, go through Luxembourg and only touch the last 5km or so in France to finish somewhere like Thionville. I can't imagine the Danes being too keen to spend all that money on the Grand Départ then only to get a prologue or TTT and then a stage start and the first 50km or so of a flat stage. That's notwithstanding that the Köln-Thionville route would have to bypass almost all the hills en route to get to a UCI-approvable length. Afraid from Denmark, maybe one stage finish in Germany (like the 2009 Vuelta's Dutch start with stage 4 ending in Liège... but if they did that an Öresund Bridge-crossing stage finishing in Malmö would be WAY cooler) but other than that it's almost certainly going to have to be the conventional way of early rest days and transfers back to France.

A perhaps realistic scenario for a not too brutally awful few days might be:

1) København - København (prologue, preferably, but ASO would probably choose a TTT)
2) ? - Vejle (annoyingly ASO doesn't like circuits, and the one they use in the Danmark Rundt is probably too short for a TDF péloton, but a few laps on a hilly circuit here would be ideal)
3) Vejle/Herning/Horsens (somewhere like that) - Århus with a few smaller hills mid stage. Alternatively, Åbenrå - Hamburg with a few bits exposed to the wind in Schleswig-Holstein and the Waseberg

Another option ASO might consider given their current tendency would be to make the København stage a road stage, possibly circuits of the (truly awful) 2011 Worlds circuit, or doing a double-cross of the bridge to detour into Sweden just because they can, then have a short-to-mid-length TT or TTT on stage 4 after returning to France, which with a short air transfer from Hamburg or Århus to somewhere in northern France could be done in the evening of day 4 to eliminate the need for an extra or early rest day.

Most importantly, however, is that they need to learn from the 2012 Giro. That Danish start was an abomination, truly woeful and one of the worst introductions to a GT since Britain's first stage of the Tour de France, going back and forth on a closed stretch of dual carriageway back in 1974. Maybe those run-ins they chose are fine in the Danmark Rundt, with 16 teams of 8 riders, most of whom are familiar with racing in the hard fast and flat conditions of Danish racing, but for 22 teams of 9 including some climber's teams with some flyweight riders to protect, it was a recipe for disaster, and what we got was three stages of boring racing where we waited for the sprint, then didn't even get a half decent sprint because half the sprinters were sprawled out on the floor (oh, hi, Ferrari). Denmark can offer better racing than that.

 

[Valv.Piti]

It was more or less confirmed that it would start out with a prologue in København and a finish in Vejle. As I said, DK has horrible terrain, but the first one being a prologue and another one being decently hilly, its like any other Grand Depart really with a flat sprinter stage in between.

 

[RedheadDane]

Another idea could be something like this:

Team Presentation in Århus.

Stage 1:
RR from Århus to the Vejle area, with enough hills along the way to make the more attack-minded riders go "I can totally win this stage! "

Stage 2:
ITT up Kiddesvej.
Yes, I want an ITT up Kiddesvej! Think it would make for a pretty great spectator-experience.

Stage 3:
Zig-zagging around in the area, again using as many hills as humanly possible, perhaps crossing a bit over to the more western parts of Jutland - which would include a severe lack of hills, but might result in some crosswind.
Finish in/near Billund with a plane waiting to take the riders to Northern France, possibly avoiding an extra "rest day".

Of course when taking about the possibility of avoiding an extra/early rest day we also need to bear in mind that the rest of the race Caravan needs to get to France as well. Wouldn't help much if the riders were in France but everyone else were somewhere on the Autobahn.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

It's a done deal.

Düsseldorf will host Grand Départ of 2017 Tour de France

ASO confirms first German start in 30 years

Tour organisers ASO confirmed Düsseldorf as the host city on Tuesday morning, and details of the opening stages of the 2017 Tour are set to be revealed at press conferences in Paris and Düsseldorf on January 14.