Grand Tour comparisons?

[ice&fire]

Both cyclingcols and climbbybike have formulas that compute a climb difficulty figure. Both include a factor that varies with the square of the slope. APM is probably similar in that aspect. Extra factors may account by the fact that doubling the slope does not exactly result in four times the coefficient.

 

[Danskebjerge]

Re:

Yeah, Tour de France is definitely the easiest route most years. Which makes sense, because France is a much flatter country than Spain and Italy - where even the 'flat' stages can be pretty hilly.

No matter how you read the data, it seems the Vuelta has the easiest route. The Giro seems to have the toughest route, just edging out the Tour.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Re:

Anyway, about the comparison of the Grand Tours, while the Vuelta is the runt of the GT litter, being significantly younger and only really establishing itself and stepping out of its "tailor the course to the star we want to import" rut with the development of the skiing industry and the later political transition in the 70s, each race has its own things that make it a unique challenge compared to the other two.

GIRO:
TOUR:
VUELTA:

This is an excellent post that sums it up better than I could have said. I think you really hit it.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

I can't remember one year when the Tour had the hardest route, and it's no doubt responsible for most of the easiest GT parcourses in the last years. Maybe the 2007 and 2008 Vuelta can be included in there as well?

It's like you don't read a few posts above.

But if you do have an actual measure by which the Tour is "no doubt" responsible for most of the easiest parcours in the last years maybe you can share it with us?

2009. 2012. This year's abomination. Flat stages in the Tour are usually way easier than in the Giro and the Vuelta too. And I don't see any posts that make me change my mind.

I'd say thats its generally the other way around. You don't have the same amount of nervousness and tension in the Giro and the Vuelta, especially not first week flat stages.

 

[Brullnux]

Flat tour stages are often properly flat. They are almost always ridden hard though.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Yeah, Tour de France is definitely the easiest route most years. Which makes sense, because France is a much flatter country than Spain and Italy - where even the 'flat' stages can be pretty hilly.

No matter how you read the data, it seems the Vuelta has the easiest route. The Giro seems to have the toughest route, just edging out the Tour.

What data? Do you mean just the table of the 15 hardest climbs? Because that obviously doesn't take into account the huge number of smaller and unclassified climbs that you get in the Vuelta (and to a lesser extent the Giro), but which are much rarer in the Tour. There's no doubt the Tour has the least climbing overall and has the easiest profiles on average.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I can't remember one year when the Tour had the hardest route, and it's no doubt responsible for most of the easiest GT parcourses in the last years. Maybe the 2007 and 2008 Vuelta can be included in there as well?

It's like you don't read a few posts above.

But if you do have an actual measure by which the Tour is "no doubt" responsible for most of the easiest parcours in the last years maybe you can share it with us?

2009. 2012. This year's abomination. Flat stages in the Tour are usually way easier than in the Giro and the Vuelta too. And I don't see any posts that make me change my mind.

I'd say thats its generally the other way around. You don't have the same amount of nervousness and tension in the Giro and the Vuelta, especially not first week flat stages.

I think this is the distinction between tough in terms of the demands of the stage, and tough because of the way its raced. There's no doubt that an identical profile stage is generally raced in the Tour than the other two GTs. But I think, objectively, the pan flat 'sprint stages' in the Tour require less watts, a steadier power effort and lower energy usage than the hillier 'sprint stages' of the Giro or Vuelta.

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

Yeah, Tour de France is definitely the easiest route most years. Which makes sense, because France is a much flatter country than Spain and Italy - where even the 'flat' stages can be pretty hilly.

No matter how you read the data, it seems the Vuelta has the easiest route. The Giro seems to have the toughest route, just edging out the Tour.

What data? Do you mean just the table of the 15 hardest climbs? Because that obviously doesn't take into account the huge number of smaller and unclassified climbs that you get in the Vuelta (and to a lesser extent the Giro), but which are much rarer in the Tour. There's no doubt the Tour has the least climbing overall and has the easiest profiles on average.

Seems like a lot of stereotyping based on nothing as usual.

Maybe you should direct me to that huge number of mythical uncategorized climbs in the 2012 vuelta that made up for the lack of actual high mountains.

Go ahead, take your time.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Yeah, Tour de France is definitely the easiest route most years. Which makes sense, because France is a much flatter country than Spain and Italy - where even the 'flat' stages can be pretty hilly.

No matter how you read the data, it seems the Vuelta has the easiest route. The Giro seems to have the toughest route, just edging out the Tour.

What data? Do you mean just the table of the 15 hardest climbs? Because that obviously doesn't take into account the huge number of smaller and unclassified climbs that you get in the Vuelta (and to a lesser extent the Giro), but which are much rarer in the Tour. There's no doubt the Tour has the least climbing overall and has the easiest profiles on average.

Seems like a lot of stereotyping based on nothing as usual.

Maybe you should direct me to that huge number of mythical uncategorized climbs in the 2012 vuelta that made up for the lack of actual high mountains.

Go ahead, take your time.

Do your own research; even a basic understanding of European geography would be a start.

Spain is one of the most mountainous countries in Europe. Perhaps you don't get that sitting in your armchair watching races in TV, but if you picked up a bike and rode around the areas these races go to, you would quickly realize this.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Of course the 2012 Vuelta's smaller climbs don't make up for the lack of actual difficult climbs. That year the Tour and Vuelta had opposite problems - the Tour had plenty of real mountains but quite a few placed in such a way that they had no impactful, the Vuelta decided to make every climb have an impact, therefore eschewed mid-stage climbs almost entirely.

The Tour has five mountain categories, the Giro and Vuelta only four, so unless they're super early in the race when it starts in places like the Netherlands in the Giro, or the few really small climbs that get cat.3 in the Vuelta (even though they often give cat.1 way too easily), a lot of Tour cat.4 climbs don't get categorization in the other GTs (and indeed if they occur in the second half of the Tour often climbs that would have been cat.4 early in the race to incentivize a battle for the polka dots will just be ignored once the major mountains are taking place).

Anyway, with the Vuelta you get some very random stages. This flat stage includes 5km @ 8% uncategorized before the comienza puerto sign on the cat.3 climb:

Or how about this profile? Plenty of smaller climbs uncategorized here.

Or how's about the 2015 Giro and its stages to Sestri Levante and Imola?

Maybe not flat stages, but that's a LOT of uncategorized climbing.