Gravel sectors in road racing

[Davesta]

@Salvarani

Sure you can compare them. This are all elite modern sports. In this regard gravel is in my opinion considered to be off-road.

@Pirazziattacks

I always laugh at people that buy an expensive road bike and after go off-road with it. Stupidest thing one can do really.

Why is that stupid? Riding gravel on a road bike is fun!

 

[RedheadDane]

I voted for "Specialist races" option. For "General races" i feel that gravel has no place there. Road bikes are not made for gravel. You shouldn't in my opinion prove anything on gravel. To be considered an overall good road cyclist. The road offers enough excitement by itself.

So, you're saying that a stage like stage 7 of the 2010 Giro should never have happened?

 

[CyclistAbi]

That wasnt the question.

The answer should leave no doubt.

Why is that stupid? Riding gravel on a road bike is fun!

Maybe i shouldn't say stupid. Lets try to be inclusive. Beyond that feel free to do that if you find it fun. There can be a special competitive discipline just for that. Just don't expect the whole peloton to do the same. To lets say prove some moot point to somebody. As we could add 10km TT section to a downhill MTB race. It likely would be fun. But that TT section wold have little to do with downhill MTB. On the plus side we would know which MTB champ can TT. Beyond that it would likely be of little value to do it like that.

So, you're saying that a stage like stage 7 of the 2010 Giro should never have happened?

That's so 2010s.

 

[Bonimenier]

I'm not the biggest proponent of gravel sectors in stage races, but I have to admit that it usually does give an exciting race. If there are gravel sectors, they need to be somewhat decent though as the sectors in the Giro for example, and not that ridiculous looking as it did in Valencia.

 

[jmdirt]

This.

Although "gimmick" gravel stages like "super" PDBF -- and gimmick stages in general, ie double Ventoux -- ought to be abolished. There are enough real roads in Europe for a thousand years of GTs.

Back in the day before wide road tires, I used to ride lots of gravel/dirt roads on 23s at 110 psi. It was a challenge to find traction and avoid pinch flats etc. So I appreciate the occasional gravel or dirt section, as well as the new, improved Paris-Tours and Tro Bro Leon. Those are the kinds or roads/paths I ride once in a while.

We had a few fun races around here with TOUGH gravel sections. I was able to get 23s down to 90 psi before I just mentally couldn't go any lower. I would love to do one of those races now with tubeless 28s at 80 psi (races don't exist anymore, plus I haven't turned a pedal in anger in 9 years). One time I did the gravel section on my mountain bike the day before the race and it was amazing.

 

[jmdirt]

Indeed there are a lot of gravel roads in the world. Just like a lot of other terrains people ride bikes on. In comparison F1 nor MotoGP have gravel sections. Elite pro road cycling in some general term hence should not hold on to some relic of the past. The equipment and cyclist in general is/are not made for it anymore.

P.S. Saying it is a right thing Evenepoel lost a race. Due to the gravel section. It's basically wrong that he lost a race in such way. Nothing memorable in it for him or GC lead.

Seem from that comparison I agree with you, I'd hate to see a gravel sections in Moto GP. Maybe Pro road racing in Pedal GP?

 

[Axel Hangleck]

@Salvarani

Sure you can compare them. This are all elite modern sports. In this regard gravel is in my opinion considered to be off-road.

@Pirazziattacks

I always laugh at people that buy an expensive road bike and after go off-road with it. Stupidest thing one can do really.

Why?? Most road bikes can now fit 30mm tyres (if not more) You can ride light off road on them now no problem at all.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Why?? Most road bikes can now fit 30mm tyres (if not more) You can ride light off road on them now no problem at all.

Why? If you want to do gravel just use equipment for gravel. The right tool for the job.

P.S. Road bike will sue you for neglect and will win.

 

[Davesta]

Why? If you want to do gravel just use equipment for gravel. The right tool for the job.

P.S. Road bike will sue you for neglect and will win.

The right tool for the job presumably being a road bike, given they were used on gravel for about hundred years before gravel bikes were "invented" (or 70 years before MTBs)...

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Davesta

It's 2022 now and not 1922.

In F1 there used to be a stick shift. I personally don't care all that much if a road cyclist can handle gravel or not. That is it's nice to see a good road cyclist to handle off-road terrains in lets say their free time. But seeing them at work and for me that is just fooling around.

I much more enjoy watching the pros at off-road. And i don't consider the whole peloton riding through a short gravel section on a stage race to be of a pro level.

As for the image you posted. Sure. Lets have that in 2022. On some specialized races. Where there is more gravel then road sections. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[CyclistAbi]

In 2022 most pro road cyclists don't train on gravel anymore. Hence we can say the peloton as a whole is amateur on this level. For being a good road cyclist in 2022 you need to be great at other things. Such as TT and climbing.

Now if anybody is claiming that is easy. Try it. Try to be good at TT and climbing.

 

[Bonimenier]

In 2022 most pro road cyclists don't train on gravel anymore. Hence we can say the peloton as a whole is amateur on this level. For being a good road cyclist in 2022 you need to be great at other things. Such as TT and climbing.

Now if anybody is claiming that is easy. Try it. Try to be good at TT and climbing.

Actually, in 2022 there are a lot more pros training on gravel occasionally than a dozen years ago.

 

[saunaking]

I voted #2 but the more I think about it I believe its ok to have them in stage racing sometimes as well.
Really what I would want to avoid is luck playing an overly large part in the outcome of a stage race.
Strade is a great race - but it is based on gravel. It would be a stupid gimmik IMO to add gravel to LBL for example.
This spanish race coming up in a few days is promoting itself based on gravel sectors - this is fine too - some race nobody cares about trying to matter using gravel.

In tours & GTs, try and avoid sectors with too extreme gravel - this weekend might have been one of those, but i havent seen the road up close so i dunno.
Finnestre and the 2010 giro stage are too great to keep out of gt racing.
Super PDBF feels gimmiky, but ok

 

[RedheadDane]

I like specialised races like Strade Bianche and Tro-Bro-Leon.
I like the occasional inclusion in stage races (just like I like the occasional inclusion of cobbles)

I think the following two factors should be considered when deciding whether a road - and roads with gravel or cobbles are roads - are suitable:

1: Originally designed for - and used by - wheeled vehicles wider than a donkey. So, no goat tracks. However, they don't have to still be used for anything other than the occasional - or yearly - bike race, as long as the other factor is fulfilled...

2: Properly maintained. Aren't the pavées of P-R basically only used for the race these days? But they're being maintaned, and are therefore good. Besides; a properly maintained gravel road is probably safer than an asphalt road filled with holes. So asphalt isn't always safer than gravel; it's all about the condition of the specific road.

For example; that thing they tried to do for the opening stage of the Vuelta a few years back: No... that's not a road. That's a beach!

As for punctures... well... guess we shouldn't have races in Denmark when it rains either, because of the flint in our roads. And... that would severely limit our chances for races.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Voted #2 for the main reason that i don't trust organizers to include them in stage races in a way that i find fitting. While i like gravel and offroad sections, as they bring something unpredictable to the race, i don't like the fact of a GC rider possibly losing minutes due to a mechanical or a puncture, with little to no time to set things straight.

While losing time due to not being able to ride in echelons, on cobbles or gravel due to poor bikehandling etc is one thing, it is a different matter when you lose a 1 to 3 week race, that takes weeks, months, sometimes years to prepare (especially knowing GC riders often miss out years worth of GT's due to injuries and crashes to begin with) because the organizer thought it would be fun to include a gravel section, while there is a perfectly viable alternative road, in a place cars can not pass by to offer assistance, and with only a few km to go there is no way to make up for lost time.

Valverde and Ayuso both lost time due to a mechanical last week. Doesn't matter much, neither was going to win the GC anymore, and VCV... who cares. Sure.

Now let's imagine it takes Bernal until 2024 before he comes back in a way or form that enables him to compete for a GT win. He's had to overcome multiple nasty injuries, has to work to come back to a decent form for two years. He's back. He's doing great. He's the first rider in years to throw the gauntlet at Pogacar's feet. He's distanced Pogacar on the penultimate climb, he's got 70 seconds with only 3k to go and the next stage is a deciding 15km ITT. The gravel section is up next, he flats, but because there are riders from the early break stretched out behind him, his team car can't pass to offer assistance. He has to climb 2 more kilometers on a flat rear tire. Pogacar is closing in. Bernal loses the stage and the Tour. Would you still vote to include them in stage races?

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Now let's imagine it takes Bernal until 2024 before he comes back in a way or form that enables him to compete for a GT win. He's had to overcome multiple nasty injuries, has to work to come back to a decent form for two years. He's back. He's doing great. He's the first rider in years to throw the gauntlet at Pogacar's feet. He's distanced Pogacar on the penultimate climb, he's got 70 seconds with only 3k to go and the next stage is a deciding 15km ITT. The gravel section is up next, he flats, but because there are riders from the early break stretched out behind him, his team car can't pass to offer assistance. He has to climb 2 more kilometers on a flat rear tire. Pogacar is closing in. Bernal loses the stage and the Tour. Would you still vote to include them in stage races?

If you need such a specific, hypothetical situation to underline your point, maybe you should consider how good the point you're making is. Especially considering the amount of GC favourites who see their challenge end due to other variables they have no control over, like crashes on flat stages.

Here's an overview of GTs with unpaved sections and cobbles from 2010 onwards:

Giro:

• Montalcino stage and Kronplatz stage in 2010
• Orvieto stage, final ramp on the Gardeccia stage, and Finestre stage in 2011
• Finestre stage in 2015
• Arezzo stage in 2016
• Finestre stage in 2018
• Montalcino stage in 2021

Tour:

• Arenberg stage in 2010
• Arenberg stage in 2014
• Cambrai stage in 2015
• Roubaix stage in 2018
• Brussels stage and SPdBF final ramp in 2019
• Glières stage in 2020

Vuelta:

• Les Praeres final ramp in 2018
• Cortals d'Encamp stage in 2019

To my knowledge, that's 13 stages with unpaved sectors and 5 cobbled stages in the past 12 years. A grand total of zero of those saw punctures that had any impact on who ended up winning the GC. So the empirics don't suggest it's a big risk either.

Oh, and I would still vote to include them. The excellence of the Finestre stages alone outweighs the disaster that would be a Tour being decided that way. The same goes for the Montalcino stages. And then we haven't even touched upon some other excellent days of racing on cobbles or unpaved roads.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

If you need such a specific, hypothetical situation to underline your point, maybe you should consider how good the point you're making is. Especially considering the amount of GC favourites who see their challenge end due to other variables they have no control over, like crashes on flat stages.

Here's an overview of GTs with unpaved sections and cobbles from 2010 onwards:

Giro:

• Montalcino stage in 2010
• Orvieto stage, final ramp on the Gardeccia stage, and Finestre stage in 2011
• Finestre stage in 2015
• Arezzo stage in 2016
• Finestre stage in 2018
• Montalcino stage in 2021

Tour:

• Arenberg stage in 2010
• Arenberg stage in 2014
• Cambrai stage in 2015
• Roubaix stage in 2018
• Brussels stage and SPdBF final ramp in 2019
• Glières stage in 2020

Vuelta:

• Les Praeres final ramp in 2018
• Cortals d'Encamp stage in 2019

To my knowledge, that's 12 stages with unpaved sectors and 5 cobbled stages in the past 12 years. A grand total of zero of those saw punctures that had any impact on who ended up winning the GC. So the empirics don't suggest it's a big risk either.

I just listed two riders, who prior to the race were seen as GC riders, had a mechanical and lost considerable time. Ayuso was still with the main group at the start of the sector, but he lost 4 minutes by the time he reached the finish. This was in a 2k sector in the same race. That shows my hypothetical isn't at all that unlikely. Valverde might actually have climbed on the podium without his flat.

In Strade Bianche there is a multitude of punctures compared to other classics. You are also acting as if cobbles and gravel are the same thing. They are not. Chances of flatting on cobbles is to my knowledge (and experience) a lot smaller per average km. Would be interesting to see some data about that.

You are also ignoring "not trusting organizers to include them in a fitting way". That doesn't mean they can not be included in a fitting way, or have not been in the past. But that they could easily be included in a way that i personally would not like as they could potentially influence GC. Like it did in Valencia.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

I just listed two riders, who prior to the race were seen as GC riders, had a mechanical and lost considerable time. Ayuso was still with the main group at the start of the sector, but he lost 4 minutes by the time he reached the finish. This was in a 2k sector in the same race. That shows my hypothetical isn't at all that unlikely. Valverde might actually have climbed on the podium without his flat.

In Strade Bianche there is a multitude of punctures compared to other classics. You are also acting as if cobbles and gravel are the same thing. They are not. Chances of flatting on cobbles is to my knowledge (and experience) a lot smaller per average km. Would be interesting to see some data about that.

You are also ignoring "not trusting organizers to include them in a fitting way". That doesn't mean they can not be included in a fitting way, or have not been in the past. But that they could easily be included in a way that i personally would not like as they could potentially influence GC. Like it did in Valencia.

I already stated my opposition to unpaved sections included solely for gimmick purposes and/or with rocks that are too large/sharp upthread and that I therefore didn't agree with Friday's finish in Valencia. Those kinds of unpaved sections could at least partially be filtered out with the correct regulations in place.

However, I do think that a GT would be less likely to have used that kind of sector as the level of scrutiny they're under is far greater. Moreover, had it been a Vuelta stage that finished there, teams involved in the GC battle would make sure they had enough mechanics with spare tires and/or bikes along the road on the unpaved section to prevent a long wait for the team car - that is, if the organiser wasn't already providing this. That didn't happen now, because, like you said, Valencia is far less important, so it wasn't worth the financial and logistical effort for teams to do so.

So even without any regulations barring that kind of sector being included in a GT, I don't think the Valencia stage constitutes proof that there's an excessive risk of a GT being decided by a flat if unpaved sections are included.

 

[tobydawq]

Who is the authority on what is a gimmick and not?

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Who is the authority on what is a gimmick and not?

Nobody is, obviously, but I'm not going to type out the following every time instead of 'gimmicky unpaved section':

An unpaved section whose exclusion from the race would not materially worsen the logistics, nor the characteristics of the race.

I know full well that that definition is impossible to quantify and therefore doesn't mean exactly the same to me as it might to other people, but I think it should be pretty obvious why that means I don't like Super Planche des Belles Filles or the Valencia finish...

 

[Netserk]

Who is the authority on what is a gimmick and not?

You are, so tell me where the line is.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Nobody is, obviously, but I'm not going to type out the following every time instead of 'gimmicky unpaved section':

An unpaved section whose exclusion from the race would not materially worsen the logistics, nor the characteristics of the race.

I know full well that that definition is impossible to quantify and therefore doesn't mean exactly the same to me as it might to other people, but I think it should be pretty obvious why that means I don't like Super Planche des Belles Filles or the Valencia finish...

And yet we'had those finishes recently which proves my point that we can't trust organizers with it. Hence my opinion and choice for option #2: not in stageraces.

 

[senna6541]

Love "off road" racing, but I voted for only special races like SB. I've never ridden on real cobbles, but they look a helluva lot more treacherous than gravel or dirt roads. Don't think there is much doubt that PR last fall was the most brutal pro bike race (and hence hardest bike race) in a long, long, time.

 

[Bonimenier]

If you need such a specific, hypothetical situation to underline your point, maybe you should consider how good the point you're making is. Especially considering the amount of GC favourites who see their challenge end due to other variables they have no control over, like crashes on flat stages.

Here's an overview of GTs with unpaved sections and cobbles from 2010 onwards:

Giro:

• Montalcino stage and Kronplatz stage in 2010
• Orvieto stage, final ramp on the Gardeccia stage, and Finestre stage in 2011
• Finestre stage in 2015
• Arezzo stage in 2016
• Finestre stage in 2018
• Montalcino stage in 2021

Tour:

• Arenberg stage in 2010
• Arenberg stage in 2014
• Cambrai stage in 2015
• Roubaix stage in 2018
• Brussels stage and SPdBF final ramp in 2019
• Glières stage in 2020

Vuelta:

• Les Praeres final ramp in 2018
• Cortals d'Encamp stage in 2019

To my knowledge, that's 13 stages with unpaved sectors and 5 cobbled stages in the past 12 years. A grand total of zero of those saw punctures that had any impact on who ended up winning the GC. So the empirics don't suggest it's a big risk either.

Oh, and I would still vote to include them. The excellence of the Finestre stages alone outweighs the disaster that would be a Tour being decided that way. The same goes for the Montalcino stages. And then we haven't even touched upon some other excellent days of racing on cobbles or unpaved roads.

Last week alone 2 potential GC winners in 2 different stage races lost their chance to win the overall race on gravel. In Valencia. Valverde wasn't likely to win, but if you see how high he finishes with a puncture he definitely could have come 2nd in GC. In Saudi Bagioli crashes on the gravel because of a massive stone and loses 20 minutes. Looking at how he performed later in the race, he definitely had a big chance to win GC.

So yeah, it is quite a big risk. The risk is just lower in GTs, because they are much better organized. The organisation will make sure the sectors don't look as atrocious as they do in some lower tier stage races.

 

[tobydawq]

You are, so tell me where the line is.

Nothing is a gimmick.

Maybe the way they started the short Tour stage in 2018 with the Formula 1 inspired grid formation but otherwise, nothing.

Okay, I just thought of one more: Kammerslusen that they used in PDR some years ago was pretty stupid.