Gripper grasping at straws

[blackcat]

To catch dopers and allow clean athletes compete.

this (my posts) are just the devils advocate. I am not the Armstrong apoligist Arbiter is, nor the intern in Austin.

Clean athletes are allowed to compete. Just they will never be up the pointy end in a selective race like classics, GC GTs, GT sprints, Worlds, chronos at Worlds and GTs.

if there is only one doped athlete caught for every one hundred, is this feasible? a tenet of justice is universality.

just because you cannot catch the ^99, (double negative) THIS IS NOT a reason, or the reason, to dismantle anti-doping regulations. so this may seem contradictory to the points I was positing, with the underlying critique.

what does a clean athlete want in this atmosphere. what do the clean athletes that turned their back on the sport think, and hypothetically want?

 

[sniper]

Progress!


Yes & no.
Agree that being a higher earner is an advantage to fight a case brought by UCI - so they would only persue if absolutley sure, which is nearly impossible.

I would think that at this stage what a Doc can do to bypass flagging the BP is limited, regardless of resources, so it means that everyone has throttled back.
If thats the case, then clean(ish/er) riders can now do quite well.

Yep, but there's still the Sky problem. Sky aren'T clean, and they're doing quite well.
There is also the Spanish problem. The Spanish were doing quite well at the end of 2012. Not clean either.

Another problem: the mentality hasn't changed much. In the past few weeks, who from the peloton has come forward to make a strong anti-doping statement? Very few. Kittle comes to mind.
Most are turning a blind eye to UCI corruption, and simply wanna move on as if nothing happened.
Bad signs.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

this (my posts) are just the devils advocate. I am not the Armstrong apoligist Arbiter is, nor the intern in Austin.

Clean athletes are allowed to compete. Just they will never be up the pointy end in a selective race like classics, GC GTs, GT sprints, Worlds, chronos at Worlds and GTs.

if there is only one doped athlete caught for every one hundred, is this feasible? a tenet of justice is universality.

just because you cannot catch the ^99, (double negative) THIS IS NOT a reason, or the reason, to dismantle anti-doping regulations. so this may seem contradictory to the points I was positing, with the underlying critique.

what does a clean athlete want in this atmosphere. what do the clean athletes that turned their back on the sport think, and hypothetically want?

Thats a really good question.

A lot of clean athletes turned their back on the (Pro side) of the sport, because they felt they could not compete or felt under pressure to dope.

For most Pros their own ambitions goes when the put pen to contract - they are now employees, their livelihood dependent on doing a role.
So, "most riders" I believe just want an opportunity to do their job and earn some money in a job they enjoy.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yep, but there's still the Sky problem. Sky aren'T clean, and they're doing quite well.
There is also the Spanish problem. The Spanish were doing quite well at the end of 2012. Not clean either.

I don't trust Sky, but regarding Spanish riders doing well at the end of the year, that happens every year because they are doing the Vuelta.

Another problem: the mentality hasn't changed much. In the past few weeks, who from the peloton has come forward to make a strong anti-doping statement? Very few. Kittle comes to mind.
Most are turning a blind eye to UCI corruption, and simply wanna move on as if nothing happened.
Bad signs.

Sure, but a statement is just that, a statement. It shows little for the mentality. What can an individual rider possibly achieve beyond PR?

And moreso, it is not the mentality of the riders that is my barometer, it is in the management and administrators. Progress is slow here (always is with administrators) but they are under big pressure. Times are changin.

 

[Ferminal]

Ferminal, I don't understand the first part of your post. Where does Contador come into this? and what race are you talking about.

In fact I don't really get most of your post. Maybe I am just being thick here.

Blanco was 12 minutes down in the 2000 Giro. If we are to hypothesize that someone of similar ability could win a GT today, doesn't it make sense to compare that to the best GT rider today? So a 2008-2012 Contador would have to be 10 minutes behind Garzelli in the 2000 Giro, which I just don't see.

Second point is that riders who we think are veritably clean from the last decade were not necessarily the best athletes if everyone was clean. We don't know what a Basso or Heras would have done clean but there's a strong chance they would have been better than the best "known clean" rider of that period.

 

[sniper]

I don't trust Sky, but regarding Spanish riders doing well at the end of the year, that happens every year because they are doing the Vuelta.

I assume you've read the news re: josé luis martinez? brief summary:

En los dos últimos años a Martínez se le veía diariamente en la Vuelta a España, carrera con cuya organización colaboraba en tareas de <CF1001>chaperón<CF1000> con los inspectores antidopaje. El chaperón es la persona que acompaña a los deportistas seleccionados para el control de dopaje desde el momento en que terminan su competición para controlar todos sus movimientos antes de acudir a orinar a la estación de control. http://deportes.elpais.com/deportes/2013/01/22/actualidad/1358885232_040034.html

I know you want to believe, and so do I, but please, Doc, don't allow the "cycling is so much cleaner now"-message to settle in.

The day that this message settles as a consensus, that'll be the day when we've officially missed the next opportunity to save cycling.

 

[pmcg76]

Blanco was 12 minutes down in the 2000 Giro. If we are to hypothesize that someone of similar ability could win a GT today, doesn't it make sense to compare that to the best GT rider today? So a 2008-2012 Contador would have to be 10 minutes behind Garzelli in the 2000 Giro, which I just don't see.

Second point is that riders who we think are veritably clean from the last decade were not necessarily the best athletes if everyone was clean. We don't know what a Basso or Heras would have done clean but there's a strong chance they would have been better than the best "known clean" rider of that period.

Ok, now I see what you are saying. But if Contador had been at the Giro this year, do you not think he might still have been the winner by a few minutes. Like everything its hard to estimate with different rider's, routes etc.

Would Hysdejal have been a contender for the win at the Vuelta for example, I really don't think so. There are many on here who would argue that no way should a clean rider be within 12 minutes of riders on EPO over a three week race.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I assume you've read the news re: josé luis martinez? brief summary:


I know you want to believe, and so do I, but please, Doc, don't allow the "cycling is so much cleaner now"-message to settle in.

The day that this message settles as a consensus, that'll be the day when we've officially missed the next opportunity to save cycling.

This is why i called you an extremist - at no point did I or would I say cycling "is so much cleaner" or would I let that message settle in.

Why do you continue to mischaracterize what people say? How is you making stuff up going to in your words, "save cycling"?

I view your continued attempts to misrepresent things as equally harmful to progress as those who say the opposite.

 

[sniper]

This is why i called you an extremist - at no point did I or would I say cycling "is so much cleaner" or would I let that message settle in.

Why do you continue to mischaracterize what people say? How is you making stuff up going to in your words, "save cycling"?

I view your continued attempts to misrepresent things as equally harmful to progress as those who say the opposite.

I know. you're in here for the facts, not for the assumptions, and that's good.

note: at no point did I say you said cycling "is so much cleaner"
vaughters said it. not you, and i didn't say you did.
so i wasn't misrepresenting, at least not in this case.

just wanna make sure that mantra is not sucking you in.

 

[Benotti69]

It is the extremists who lead the revolution and bring about change, whether for better or worse.

Others are nothing more than emperor's new clothes.

 

[Nick777]

Cadel used to brag he was the only Australian with a Ferrari engine......

Still trying to confirm some info for you about Evans - I didn't end up going away in November with the source, due to a family member getting sick.

According to a someone who should know, Cadel was clean when he lead the Giro in 2002. I have heard that he mightn't be as clean (in the past few years) as I'd hoped though.