Hall of Shame in Doping | Inaugural Edition

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Re: Re:

Cookster15 said:
roundabout said:
Cookster15 said:
roundabout said:
Cookster15 said:
Forget Pantani you are barking up the wrong tree a victim of the times not a villain.

For doping hall of shame surely we need to nominate Bjarne Riis. Showed up as a monster with veins popping out of his head in 1996. Mr 60%. Sent Indurain into retirement. So obvious.
So Riis Mr 60% is a villain and a monster, while Pantani with his mere 58% is a victim.
Well yes. Riis is still alive isn't he?
Would he be a victim in your eyes if he wasn't? From your pantomime villain description of him, I am guessing probably not.
What Pantani showed in 1998 and 1999 we already saw from 1994. The Riis that turned up in 1996 was new. Obvious from the first ITT when he put 30 seconds into Indurain.
What we already saw in 1994 was Pantani with hematocrit of over 50% (54,5% -during and then 58% the day after the Giro)
 
Re: Re:

roundabout said:
Cookster15 said:
Calm down. This is opinion not life or death. Fine, then quote the evidence. Play the ball not than man. Thanks.
Wow, you have the nerve to ask me to quote the evidence?

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/pantapro/capo/capo.html

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/lista/pantani/pantani.html
Do you have English versions? But why couldn't you do that at the beginning? Why do you need to be prodded several times? This is an opinion forum not university. Better to figuratively speaking throw your arms around in the air as it quite typical here particularly with high post count posters. :(
 
Re: Re:

Cookster15 said:
roundabout said:
Cookster15 said:
Calm down. This is opinion not life or death. Fine, then quote the evidence. Play the ball not than man. Thanks.
Wow, you have the nerve to ask me to quote the evidence?

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/pantapro/capo/capo.html

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/lista/pantani/pantani.html
Do you have English versions? But why couldn't you do that at the beginning? Why do you need to be prodded several times? This is an opinion forum not university. Better to figuratively speaking throw your arms around in the air as it quite typical here particularly with high post count posters. :(
Edit: I did a Google translation. Okay, this is good and I see your point of view. But all you had to do was respectfully post that first time. Not difficult. "Nerve" :Question: Why is it a nerve to ask a question? It was an honest request.
 
Re: Re:

Cookster15 said:
roundabout said:
Cookster15 said:
Calm down. This is opinion not life or death. Fine, then quote the evidence. Play the ball not than man. Thanks.
Wow, you have the nerve to ask me to quote the evidence?

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/pantapro/capo/capo.html

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/lista/pantani/pantani.html
Do you have English versions? But why couldn't you do that at the beginning? Why do you need to be prodded several times? This is an opinion forum not university. Better to figuratively speaking throw your arms around in the air as it quite typical here particularly with high post count posters. :(
Hi Cookster,

I would recommend reading The Death of Marco Pantani by Matt Rendell. It goes into forensic detail about his doping.
 
WRT Pantani, the big difference presented here seems to be between those who believe doping had no major impact on his performance, and those who believe all his performance was down to doping. Anyone who seeks to occupy the middle ground gets shot by both sides.
 
Re: Re:

Parker said:
Cookster15 said:
roundabout said:
Cookster15 said:
Calm down. This is opinion not life or death. Fine, then quote the evidence. Play the ball not than man. Thanks.
Wow, you have the nerve to ask me to quote the evidence?

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/pantapro/capo/capo.html

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/lista/pantani/pantani.html
Do you have English versions? But why couldn't you do that at the beginning? Why do you need to be prodded several times? This is an opinion forum not university. Better to figuratively speaking throw your arms around in the air as it quite typical here particularly with high post count posters. :(
Hi Cookster,

I would recommend reading The Death of Marco Pantani by Matt Rendell. It goes into forensic detail about his doping.
Is there an English version and is it available in the states?
 
Re: Re:

86TDFWinner said:
Parker said:
Cookster15 said:
roundabout said:
Cookster15 said:
Calm down. This is opinion not life or death. Fine, then quote the evidence. Play the ball not than man. Thanks.
Wow, you have the nerve to ask me to quote the evidence?

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/pantapro/capo/capo.html

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/lista/pantani/pantani.html
Do you have English versions? But why couldn't you do that at the beginning? Why do you need to be prodded several times? This is an opinion forum not university. Better to figuratively speaking throw your arms around in the air as it quite typical here particularly with high post count posters. :(
Hi Cookster,

I would recommend reading The Death of Marco Pantani by Matt Rendell. It goes into forensic detail about his doping.
Is there an English version and is it available in the states?
The Rendell book is English and on Amazon so I am sure you can get it delivered to you in the states. Roundabout linked Italian stories no doubt they cover similar ground as the book but I'd trust Rendell more.
 
Re:

fmk_RoI said:
WRT Pantani, the big difference presented here seems to be between those who believe doping had no major impact on his performance, and those who believe all his performance was down to doping. Anyone who seeks to occupy the middle ground gets shot by both sides.
I don't see how that makes a difference whatsoever. Hypothetical essays about how a race would've looked like if the riders competed without drugs are pointless. I don't think a mediocre athlete doping is significantly more deplorable than a talented athlete doping. They still each made their own choices.
 
Re: Re:

spalco said:
fmk_RoI said:
WRT Pantani, the big difference presented here seems to be between those who believe doping had no major impact on his performance, and those who believe all his performance was down to doping. Anyone who seeks to occupy the middle ground gets shot by both sides.
I don't see how that makes a difference whatsoever. Hypothetical essays about how a race would've looked like if the riders competed without drugs are pointless. I don't think a mediocre athlete doping is significantly more deplorable than a talented athlete doping. They still each made their own choices.
I fear you have not understood what I actually posted. Certainly I haven't a clue what you're trying to say.
 
I just don't see any room for "middle ground" in this discussion. Either someone was doping or not. Some fans of particular riders seem to be excusing their doping because of their supposed natural talent and how unfair it is that supposedly lesser riders beat them by being better "responders" - Pantani is an example, Ullrich, Contador I guess.

And I think this distinction is meaningless. What exactly was it that you were trying to say?
 
Re:

spalco said:
I just don't see any room for "middle ground" in this discussion.
There is loads of room for middle ground. Not all performance improvements are down to doping, that ought to be obvious to all. You can improve. The difficulty comes in saying where the improvement comes from. Some here want to say no one has any natural talent, that everything is doping, others go just as crazy but at the opposite extreme, imagine that doping made no real difference.
 

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