Hamilton's Comments on Ferrari

[Granville57]

Paging Dr. Ferrari

http://books.google.com/books?id=M8UDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=eddy+merckx+ferrari+lance&source=bl&ots=bgf2epNrt7&sig=1sBUsM3-YhDblZDkXkbtQ7_ch2I&hl=en&ei=dCvdTeaNC4yivgPVzvylDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=eddy%20merckx%20ferrari%20lance&f=false

For the past two decades, when cycling’s greatest racers have needed that last bit of speed to turn themselves into legends, they’ve called for Michele Ferrari, who is either the sport’s most brilliant and innovative scientist or one of cycling's most insidious doping experts—or, more troubling, both.

Oh, and wasn't it Eddy Merckx that introduced Lance to the good doctor?

 

[Hugh Januss]

http://books.google.com/books?id=M8UDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=eddy+merckx+ferrari+lance&source=bl&ots=bgf2epNrt7&sig=1sBUsM3-YhDblZDkXkbtQ7_ch2I&hl=en&ei=dCvdTeaNC4yivgPVzvylDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=eddy%20merckx%20ferrari%20lance&f=false


Oh, and wasn't it Eddy Merckx that introduced Lance to the good doctor?

Yes, but Eddy just got training schedules and diet recommendations, and tests, yeah the tests too..........

 

[MarkvW]

Yes, but Eddy just got training schedules and diet recommendations, and tests, yeah the tests too..........

... and then there's the Conconi connection.

 

[Suedehead]

On #2: IMHO any athlete wants to know who the leaders in the training/conditioning fields are because they want to reach their full potential. It is my understanding that Ferrari was an expert in sport science (the part without doping). His history in the development of training programmes for professional cyclists and testing techniques for human performance goes back to the early 1980's, including helping Moser beat the hour record. In those days, most likely done without delving too deeply, if at all, into doping. The point being, and to answer #2, he has the expertise to provide very helpful training information.

Interesting. The most famous example of what blood doping can really do. Do you think Conconi handled the blood doping part and heamatologist Ferrari was in charge of intervals?

My guess is that when on a full program you need to now how hard you can train and when and what to get the best result, training and drugs go hand in hand. If you try the training part of the full program without the drugs you will get injured or burnt out.

 

[Big Doopie]

Oh, but you're wrong. Ferrari is a brilliant cycling coach as well. If all he did was work with dope, he'd be out of business real quick.
Go to http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=front and read up on some of his articles and see for yourself. Some of them are very, very good, dope or no dope.

no. you are wrong.

53x12 is a facade... like carmichael being the coach. 53x12 was only put up when the connection with armstrong was made. to make ferrari look like a cycling coach rather than a doping doctor.

nothing on 53x12 is groundbreaking and could not be written by a myriad of coaches.

ferrari knows how to manipulate blood to gain unfair advantage.

that is all.

 

[red_flanders]

no. you are wrong.

53x12 is a facade... like carmichael being the coach. 53x12 was only put up when the connection with armstrong was made. to make ferrari look like a cycling coach rather than a doping doctor.

nothing on 53x12 is groundbreaking and could not be written by a myriad of coaches.

ferrari knows how to manipulate blood to gain unfair advantage.

that is all.

Too many riders who've worked with him in the past have said differently in too many ways for me to buy that he's nothing more to it than that.

The manipulation of blood values is only useful in the context of one's training regimen and power outputs. Just jacking one's HCT is a fairly unsophisticated application, and it's guys like Ferrari who brought the combo of doping and training to a science. That's why he's so damn valuable.

He'd be a lot less infamous if he were just a dope pusher.

 

[hektoren]

Too many riders who've worked with him in the past have said differently in too many ways for me to buy that he's nothing more to it than that.

The manipulation of blood values is only useful in the context of one's training regimen and power outputs. Just jacking one's HCT is a fairly unsophisticated application, and it's guys like Ferrari who brought the combo of doping and training to a science. That's why he's so damn valuable.

He'd be a lot less infamous if he were just a dope pusher.

Exactly. Ferrari is a most unfortunate mix of a brilliant doc, brilliant trainer and a deeply amoral person.

 

[biking_lawyer]

Exactly. Ferrari is a most unfortunate mix of a brilliant doc, brilliant trainer and a deeply amoral person.

Most brilliant docs/scientists are. Their job is to apply available human knowledge and techniques to solve a problem/achieve a result, not wax philosophical over the moral implications of the consequences of their actions. From my observations, it appears that at the beginning, doping was just one more "tool" in the box that was used in conjunction with other training/diet techniques to achieve best human potential. This was not really a problem until the effectiveness of the drugs made them overshadow the other "tools". At the beginning, maybe a freak of nature/trainaholic can still compete....

but I think what we are seeing is more and more athletes admitting that without the drugs, they have no chance of competing. And that is the true travesty here, not the money, corruption, or deception: its that soul crushing moment when the starry eyed young athlete realizes that in order to continue doing what he has trained his whole life for and for what he loves best, that he has to violate his most basic principles and sell his soul.

But, then again, I guess that is how it is is any profession. The ones who "succeed" are the ones who are "all in" and who have blinders on to anything but winning and crushing the competition.

 

[D-Queued]

All I got out of the Ferrari comments was that:

Hamilton was a satisfied customer, as compared to his experience with Fuentes or anyone else.

Dave.

 

[Big Doopie]

Too many riders who've worked with him in the past have said differently in too many ways for me to buy that he's nothing more to it than that.

The manipulation of blood values is only useful in the context of one's training regimen and power outputs. Just jacking one's HCT is a fairly unsophisticated application, and it's guys like Ferrari who brought the combo of doping and training to a science. That's why he's so damn valuable.

He'd be a lot less infamous if he were just a dope pusher.

i think you misunderstand me.

ferrari's training centers around his ability to manipulate rider's parameters during training and racing. i never said that he was not valuable or not the preeminent expert in that field.

my point is, without blood manipulation, we would likely not have heard of ferrari, or at least not in the field of cycling.

everything he has achieved is due to blood manipulation. he came into cycling with moser's hour record and moser's blood doping. next we heard of him is during the arrival of epo and gewiss. next armstrong, etc...nothing that he has done in cycling is separate from blood doping his riders. his "coaching" depends solely on his riders blood doping.

therefore i would argue he is simply not a true cycling coach.

 

[Anti-doping]

very simple.

because in both situations he is doing what benefits him most.

it benefitted him most to lie when doping (he even says that "with a little luck" he would still be racing).

similarly -- and arguably more so -- he benefits now from telling the truth to the grand jury. lying now would be disastrous and bring prosecution. in fact, he has absolutely no reason/motivation to lie now.

so if you use any bit of common sense you would realize that you are simply wrong.

but common sense is not what you are concerned with as clearly you are simply trying to flame. consider this my last response to any of your posts.

Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs concerning a perceived threat towards oneself.

Wish you the best.

 

[Granville57]

Wish you the best.

That's very sweet and considerate of you. Commendable.
Best wishes all around.

 

[lean mean &green]

no. you are wrong.

53x12 is a facade... like carmichael being the coach. 53x12 was only put up when the connection with armstrong was made. to make ferrari look like a cycling coach rather than a doping doctor.

nothing on 53x12 is groundbreaking and could not be written by a myriad of coaches.

ferrari knows how to manipulate blood to gain unfair advantage.

that is all.

partly agree. 53x12 is mostly stuff you cover by sophomore year as a kinesiology undergrad. useful info but nothing brilliant. one or two articles are in fact stinkers tho too.

53x12 really tells us nothing tho because if he knows how to he isn't exactly going to broadcast how he coordinates periodization, red blood manipulations, and enhances anabolic drive to create cycling superhumans. that's "if" in fact he's way out in front of others in his attempts to do this. i think ferrari is just picking up where conconi left off and really just refining their earlier techniques to fit under todays testing standards. no genius in my opinion, a bright guy with a ton more experience than most to draw upon is all. a real genius would make a name for themselves legitimately.

i think there's more to the ferrari story than just doping/training advice too. he's known to brag about being able to predict the winner of an event because he knew how much assistance riders were getting. if you were mostly motivated by greed and had a high level of confidence in a sporting result what would you do? i think he'd let it ride

...and may have gotten himself into much hotter water as a result.

 

[alvynmcq]

Ferrari is a genius, when was the last time a Ferrari customer tested positive for a product everyone knew that they could test for?

Vino doesn't count as they target tested him and got lucky that he used someone elses blood.

I think the distinction some people are trying to make is between Ferrari who coaches athletes and monitors power profiles etc. to make sure his programs are working and other doping docs like Fuentes who are just dope doctors.

 

[Anti-doping]

odell, you are coming across a bit strong for a newcomer. Have we met? You've presented some questions, allow people to answer.

I hate Armstrong, so cause of that it's kind of forbidden to believe that Hamilton continues to not telling the truth?

Allow people to not believe a word from Tyler.

 

[lean mean &green]

Ferrari is a genius, when was the last time a Ferrari customer tested positive for a product everyone knew that they could test for?

quite a few people seem to have figured out how to avoid detection. i don't think it requires genius.

EDIT: not to mention gunderson seems to have been detected once or twice

 

[pmcg76]

quite a few people seem to have figured out how to avoid detection. i don't think it requires genius.

EDIT: not to mention gunderson seems to have been detected once or twice

That was because he didnt listen to Ferrari in regards to new tests I think, would need to check back thru the Kimmage-Landis interview.

 

[alvynmcq]

quite a few people seem to have figured out how to avoid detection. i don't think it requires genius.

EDIT: not to mention gunderson seems to have been detected once or twice

Plenty of doping coaches know how to avoid detection but I think Ferrari is at the top of the game, his client list pretty much says it all and he has had a lot of success with his athletes. I think there might be something in the fact that Ferrari's network is probably more effective and wide reaching than any other dope doctors as well.

 

[Granville57]

That was because he didnt listen to Ferrari in regards to new tests I think, would need to check back thru the Kimmage-Landis interview.

After a quick check, I didn't find it in the Kimmage interview (it may be there), but part of Floyd's initial email release.

Mr Armstrong was not witness to the extraction but he and I had lengthy discussions about it on our training rides during which time he also explained to me the evolution of EPO testing and how transfusions were now necessary due to the inconvenience of the new test. He also divulged to me at that time that in the first year that the EPO test was used he had been told by Mr Ferrari, who had access to the new test, that he should not use EPO anymore but he did not believe Mr Farrari and continued to use it.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-05-20/sports/29437514_1_closet-allong-epo-mails

I've always been troubled by this passage.
Lance went AGAINST Ferrari's advice concerning the new test?
That would seem to indicate that Lance was supremely confident that he had the testers in his back pocket. However, it also seems to imply that Ferrari was perhaps unaware of the extent of Lance's reach. Did Lance keep everything that compartmentalized? It would make sense that he would, I just assumed that he and Ferrari were in cahoots through & through.

Having no fear of the testing process is one thing.
Not BELIEVING Ferrari? Quite another.

There's just no loyalty in the world anymore.

 

[Race Radio]

Ferrari is a genius, when was the last time a Ferrari customer tested positive for a product everyone knew that they could test for?

Vino doesn't count as they target tested him and got lucky that he used someone elses blood.

I think the distinction some people are trying to make is between Ferrari who coaches athletes and monitors power profiles etc. to make sure his programs are working and other doping docs like Fuentes who are just dope doctors.

Vino, Sinkewitz, Armstrong,

 

[lean mean &green]

Plenty of doping coaches know how to avoid detection but I think Ferrari is at the top of the game, his client list pretty much says it all and he has had a lot of success with his athletes. I think there might be something in the fact that Ferrari's network is probably more effective and wide reaching than any other dope doctors as well.

landis went rogue and won the tour in 06. borrowed a few ideas from michele and was on his way without anything close to constant feedback. he described his regimen and it sounded surprisingly uncomplicated to me and it would have needed to be since he was mostly on his own. furthermore, riders transfer and secrets are poorly kept. time passes and innovations become standard operating procedure 2 or 3 seasons later. i think top riders go to ferrari partly for the same reason you pay quadruple for a pinnarello vs an obscure mail order brand - reputation. whether that frameset with the name you've never heard of on ebay is any good or not it doesn't seem worth the gamble.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Interesting. The most famous example of what blood doping can really do. Do you think Conconi handled the blood doping part and heamatologist Ferrari was in charge of intervals?

My guess is that when on a full program you need to now how hard you can train and when and what to get the best result, training and drugs go hand in hand. If you try the training part of the full program without the drugs you will get injured or burnt out.

I did not say Ferrari was never involved with PEDs in his training programmes. That would be rediculous. I'm talking about the Docs expertise in training and sports science (the application of scientific principles and techniques with the aim of improving sporting performance) apart from doping. And to make that point is why I referred to the 1980's. I'm not saying in Ferrari's case that drugs and training do not go hand in hand at all. In his case they do, especially the last 20 years. But I'm not sure it was always that way with Ferrari 30 years ago or whenever he gots his sports meds training... I mean what PEDs were available 30 years ago that Ferrari used in his programmes?

So, in his case I also think he must be a pretty sharp sports meds person. Do you think otherwise?

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

BTW, here are Dr. Ferrari's credentials:

In 1978 he graduated in Medicine and Surgery at the University of Ferrara, discussing an experimental thesis about the valuation of the anaerobic threshold in running.

In 1981 he specialized in Sport Medicine at the University of Rome.

These are posted on his website (53x12.com): About Dr. Michele Ferrari and 53x12.com

 

[Suedehead]

I did not say Ferrari was never involved with PEDs in his training programmes. That would be rediculous. I'm talking about the Docs expertise in training and sports science (the application of scientific principles and techniques with the aim of improving sporting performance) apart from doping. And to make that point is why I referred to the 1980's. I'm not saying in Ferrari's case that drugs and training do not go hand in hand at all. In his case they do, especially the last 20 years. But I'm not sure it was always that way with Ferrari 30 years ago or whenever he gots his sports meds training... I mean what PEDs were available 30 years ago that Ferrari used in his programmes?

So, in his case I also think he must be a pretty sharp sports meds person. Do you think otherwise?

In short, no.
I must confess I really don't know Ferraris early story. Did he become a doctor because of interest in physiology/performance side of things? Was he a promising athlete? I am sure he knows all aspects of what it takes to be a world class athlete, I am sure he has studied the soviet periodization masters. But I guess that by 1984 Moser and his trainers knew how to train and how to peak and Conconi and his team brought another type of knowledge to brake the record, and somebody brought in the disc wheels. That's why I thought your example was peculiar. The blood and the bike guys was the key to success. By 84, I guess, all parts in the full program was there (not epo therefor blood-doping) and Italy provided lab rats to bring it all together.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

In short, no.
I must confess I really don't know Ferraris early story. Did he become a doctor because of interest in physiology/performance side of things? Was he a promising athlete? I am sure he knows all aspects of what it takes to be a world class athlete, I am sure he has studied the soviet periodization masters. But I guess that by 1984 Moser and his trainers knew how to train and how to peak and Conconi and his team brought another type of knowledge to brake the record, and somebody brought in the disc wheels. That's why I thought your example was peculiar. The blood and the bike guys was the key to success. By 84, I guess, all parts in the full program was there (not epo therefor blood-doping) and Italy provided lab rats to bring it all together.

Well, his website has some information about him, but not about what you asked in particular about his athletic background. Apparently he was a cyclist and a runner, although I don't know to what level he attained. Below is a short piece from part 1 of a 2 part interview that CN did with Ferrari. You can view the entire interview if you like at: An Interview With Dr. Michele Ferrari, part one

Cyclingnews: You've been a specialist in sports preparation for more than 20 years. What's your point of view on today's cycling?

Dr Michele Ferrari: I started to work in professional cycling in 1983-84 with Francesco Moser. I was one of many people on his sports preparation team for the World Hour Record, and after that, Moser asked me to become team doctor for his Gis Tuc-Lu team for the 1984 season. I enthusiastically accepted Moser's invitation, especially as I'd been a cyclist myself as well as 20 years as a runner and I really liked and was interested in the sport.

The CN interview has a lot of other historically interesting information in it (e.g. how well prepared riders were then compared to today). It's worth a read just from that standpoint.

Cheers.