Hampsten vs LeMond - 1991 thru 1994

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Having been around him and his family much of what you imply is complete shite. Really. He had an overbite as a teen and finally got braces...If you want to see evidence of HGH abuse you'd go right to the East German and Russian federation riders and examine cranial growth after puberty. Oh, hey...there's also Virenque.

point taken.
To your knowledge, when did HGH make its first inroads into the pro peloton?

As for Testa, Ochowicz, Heiden; that much is obvious but the association doesn't extend to all riders under their care including: Brian Walton, Roy Knickman who were scrupulously clean and didn't stick around that long. The rules definitely changed in the Lance era where the organization removed options. You were either on the bus or out of the bus.

Thanks, most interesting.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

That discouragement was as well in reference to pressure to perform, payment, education for a life after cycling and fun with your job / life. Not singly regarding doping. I just read those interviews in the last 2 weeks!

Hampsten actually comes over as a very wise and friendly guy with some interesting points in those interviews and articles. He strikes my as a typically social Green with his organic farmer projects, Linda being a healthy food cook etc.

That ain't really tells anything about him being a doper or not. If we make a difference between real big doping and “only“ medicine abuse with pills, cortsisone etc I tend to believe he might've been quite clean compared to other.

Also his more consistence decrease in performance with the rise of Epo usage at the early 90's looks more believable than the sudden fall down of Breukink and Lemond. But what does that even say in the end!? Yeah, nothing!-

Agree with the first two paragraphs of your post. Not so much with the other two.

If we make a difference between real big doping and “only“ medicine abuse with pills, cortsisone etc, I don't think we should be looking at GT winners. We know doping makes all the difference. And, believe me, it made all the difference in the 80s, too. So if you're looking for small time dopers, I would recommend you start looking at guys with a small palmares. Not the Hampstens or Lemonds of this world.

Now, Hampsten won the Giro in 1988. That was not only one of toughest Giros ever ridden (according to some the toughest), it was also a year that we know for fact blood transfusions were used in GTs. Blood transfusions were used before that in cycling as well. Yet, in interviews, Hampsten has never spoken of them. There's one interview where he says the only drugs used in the 80s were amphetamines and steroids, and that both didn't really help riders. That's a double lie right there.

Furthermore, Hampsten had some of his best results in in 1992 and 93. Remember that the year 1991 has been baptized by Lemond (and many others) as the year EPO really took a stronghold on the peloton.
Hampsten also bulked up noticeably in 1992, but I won't go there.

Hampsten's carreer-long collaboration with Max Testa also speaks for itself. There is a good reason why Testa is still in the game. And it's got nothing to do with saddle sore.
Throughout his carreer Hampsten lived and trained right there with Testa in Como and surroundings where we know for fact Motorola riders jacked up on EPO collectively in 1995.

On a tinfoil hat note:
I've been reading a bit about HGH these days.
Something I was previously unaware of is that in fact HGH was experimented with already in the late 70s and made a breakthrough in prosports in the early-mid 80s.
The interesting thing is that one side effect of the rise of HGH was athletes starting to suffer all kinds of problems with their jaws and teeth. Allegedly there was a sudden spike in the number of athletes wearing braces. Didn't Hampsten wear braces?

Hampsten had buck teeth (or whatever the dental term is) in 84 and 85...he was in the public domain and a lot of photos...heaven forbid an 'alleged doper' should have issues about their appearance and/or want to solve a dental problem....

I will add that to the 'mexican food' list

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Hampsten had buck teeth (or whatever the dental term is) in 84 and 85...he was in the public domain and a lot of photos...heaven forbid an 'alleged doper' should have issues about their appearance and/or want to solve a dental problem....

I will add that to the 'mexican food' list

Oldermanish just addressed this satisfactorily.
"alleged doper should have..." --> strawman.
I do wonder, do you accept Froome's and Yates' medical explanations just as readily as you do Hampsten's and Lemond's? You know you can't have the cake and eat it.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Hampsten had buck teeth (or whatever the dental term is) in 84 and 85...he was in the public domain and a lot of photos...heaven forbid an 'alleged doper' should have issues about their appearance and/or want to solve a dental problem....

I will add that to the 'mexican food' list

Oldermanish just addressed this satisfactorily.
"alleged doper should have..." --> strawman.
I do wonder, do you accept Froome's and Yates' medical explanations just as readily as you do Hampsten's and Lemond's? You know you can't have the cake and eat it.

strawman? different prism sniper that is all...different prism

Froome's condition as we all know was fabricated and was never mentioned until the transformation, indeed Sir Dave didn't even know after the Vuelta...Lemond did get shot and lemond does only have one kidney and moaned constantly at the time of his health conditions...oh and he was good

Yates doesn't seem to have mentioned his 'documented' asthma..Hampsten did have buck teeth...he didn't need to mention them...we could see them

 

[sniper]

Different prisms, one for Wiggins/Froome/Yates, another for Lemond/Hampsten/Bauer.

Sure, we can forget about the teeth. I conceded that already in my reply to Oldermanish.

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

Different prisms, one for Wiggins/Froome/Yates, another for Lemond/Hampsten/Bauer.

Sure, we can forget about the teeth. I conceded that already in my reply to Oldermanish.

I don't really have an opinion on Bauer or Yates (other than the usual asthma comments).....

Hampsten was a consistently good rider throughout his career as was Lemond...I have no problem with good riders going about their business of being good riders irrespective of the milieu they find themselves in. When I say good riders I mean riders who can compete at the front end of GTs.

Wiggins was a poor road rider, as was Froome...they both transformed to become world beating GT riders on a team set up with the specific aim of being clean and transparent in an era where being clean and transparent means something very different to what it did in the 80's

The natural order has been disturbed.....

 

[sniper]

Natural order was disturbed long ago.
It was a free for all doping fest in the 60s, 70s and 80s.
Most products still couldn't be tested for, and a variety of masking techniques emerged.
Blood doping wasn't illegal. Steroids were absolutely rampant across all disciplines. Dope was easily available, especially in California.
Guys like Dardik, Hagerman and Ariel openly dreamed of testing PEDs on adolescents in order to 'identify outstanding athletes'. Colonel Don Miller and USOC threw their weight behind the plans.
It's not brain surgery to figure out what happened there. IMO the whole OTC setup was about finding the best responders, the younger the better.
And they found themselves a couple.

 

[Oldermanish]

Re: Re:

To your knowledge, when did HGH make its first inroads into the pro peloton?

We were getting whiffs of pros using it in our neighborhood in '89, '90. Football players were onto it earlier but EPO changed things. EPO only worked if you had a companion training program and it was obvious who had that connection. We'd see USPS guys that struggled up climbs in our region the previous year sprint up the same grades. Also some Spago & Montgomery Subaru ex-Pats but amateurs generally steered away not knowing how to use it or just being averse to the idea. Making the choice to use/not use was a fairly hot topic with our developing juniors/espoirs at the US team level. Guys like Lance, Levi, Tyler were well known team projects. We had a large group of TTT and long team kids that dropped racing altogether rather than go that route. Still irritates me knowing most of them were much, much better than the 3 named above.
The pro performance differences were astounding from one year to the next during that period. Nuclear age experimentation, no doubt.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

There's more than enough to do the math on Lemond and Hampsten, but i would agree with Gillian that advising kids to stay out of the sport doesn't mean much either way.

There is? Please post it all so we can see it? Certainly if there's "more than enough", you should have ample proof of this at the ready to provide for us?

By contrast: Eddy Merckx had no qualms sending his son into procycling. Similarly, Phinney and Carpenter-Phinney, two 1984 medal winners both of whom were part of OTC setup from the very beginning (Phinney, like Lemond, under the guidance of Eddie B. already in 1978) encouraged their son Taylor to go into cycling, and had no qualms when he hooked up with Lance. And honestly, if you look at Davis and Connie's (sportive) history, it's fairly straightforward mathematics.

Hmm, Phinney is pretty clean, despite Wheelman claiming that Ochowicz was doping half/most/all of the 7/11 team back in the day.

Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe Greg didn't allow or want his son to compete in pro cycling?

The point being: sending your kids into procycling is not something a person would do if he/she'd seen the doping culture and were disgusted by that culture.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, Has Geoffrey LeMond(or any of Gregs other kids), been interested into becoming a pro cyclist? Last I checked, none have, so I'm curious as to where you're getting your info, from what source, please share?

Now, claiming they [i.e. the Phinneys, Merckx] hadn't seen the doping happening is close to impossible. (Only Lemond gets away with such a ludicrous claim.)

LOL! Liggett was/is as gullible and stupid as Eddy is. Eddy's an admitted PED user, and was "close friends" with Wonderboy, of course he's going to say that, most friends do that. I'm not sure what you're getting at here, explain? When has Davis Phinney ever said this, provide the info please(Not something some rider said, what HE said, and a credible source to get the info from).

Rather, I would argue they were perfectly embedded in the culture, and weren't at all disgusted by it; they most probably thought it was a fair part of the game. Sports science and all. Merely 'catching up' with the bloc-countries.

Who is the "they" you're referring to?

Anecdote:
Inga Thompson, someone who had said "thanks but no thanks" to Eddie B.'s blood boosting program and who was subsequently ousted by the same Eddie B., once wrote an editorial discouraging kids to go into cycling. Connie Carpenter-Phinney then wrote her a personal letter asking her to withdraw the editorial. Inga wrote back, saying, sorry, can't do. And she never heard from Connie again.

Inga's on FB(and she's a very nice lady BTW), you should go there and ask her about this, and then come back here and tell us what she said.

So again, if Hampsten had discouraged kids to go into cycling while he was still an active part of the peloton, I would personally have taken that as a strong statement.

He did this, when?

Anticipating the reaction "but Connie and Davis also refused blood doping". Well, I strongly doubt they ever did.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/greg-lemonds-fantasy-cycling-camp/
It's very simple: if you support clean sport, you wouldn't go anywhere near the "Father of American doping", as both Inga Thompson and Andy Bohlman have called Eddie.

AGAIN, I will ask you/whomever to please provide links/info that claims that Phinney doped at all. It must be CREDIBLE AND VERFIABLE, not something your best friends sisters, step uncle in laws, third cousin thrice removeds dog told you, something we can easily look up, that has credibility.

That said, I would still stress that the real damning evidence of their doping lies elsewhere, not so much in their interviews. The interviews merely complement the picture. Very much like Sky: the key evidence of doping lies not in their words; but their words do complement the picture.

Who are you speaking about here? and what said "real damning evidence of their doping" exists that we don't know about? where is it lying, where we can easily see it?

 

[sniper]

have no time now to reply to that in detail right now.
but i'm happy you bring eddy M. into the mix.
was a good friend of 7-eleven, too.
two clean guys together here:

and some background reading to go with that:

7-Eleven’s Eddy Merckx bikes
http://cycling-passion.com/2013/11/02/7-eleven-eddy-merckx-bikes/

btw, i didnt know that part from wheelmen. It sounds plausible.
edit: and please take note of Oldermanish' post re Testa, Heiden, Ochowicz.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

have no time now to reply to that in detail right now.
but i'm happy you bring eddy M. into the mix.
was a good friend of 7-eleven, too.
two clean guys together here:

and some background reading to go with that:

7-Eleven’s Eddy Merckx bikes
http://cycling-passion.com/2013/11/02/7-eleven-eddy-merckx-bikes/

btw, i didnt know that part from wheelmen. It sounds plausible.
edit: and please take note of Oldermanish' post re Testa, Heiden, Ochowicz.

What a surprise, you don't have the time to answer in any length. Please answer when you do have the time and be sure to include links for all of what I've asked as well, mmkay?

So.Merckx was friends with the 7/11 guys, what's your point?

 

[sniper]

no point.
just informing.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

no point.
just informing.

Already knew that. Tell us something we don't know...

Have you found the time to answer ALL of my questions yet?

Also, You mentioned Inga Thompson earlier, I'm curious to read what you have to say about her and if she was/wasn't doping?

Please answer.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

Natural order was disturbed long ago.
It was a free for all doping fest in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

But I thought in prior threads, you kept insinuating and insisting that "LeMond introduced the peloton to doping", now you're denying it or discrediting your own statements, which is it? Either LeMond "introduced the peloton to doping" or it was a "free for all doping wise in the 60a/70a/80s, which is it, pick one?

 

[Nick C.]

Re: Re:

Natural order was disturbed long ago.
It was a free for all doping fest in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

But I thought in prior threads, you kept insinuating and insisting that "LeMond introduced the peloton to doping", now you're denying it or discrediting your own statements, which is it? Either LeMond "introduced the peloton to doping" or it was a "free for all doping wise in the 60a/70a/80s, which is it, pick one?

I think it was "Lemond introduced EPO" not doping. Besides most people on here (one would hope) have a passing familiarity with Henri Pelissier and "les forclats de la roiute."

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

have no time now to reply to that in detail right now.
but i'm happy you bring eddy M. into the mix.
was a good friend of 7-eleven, too.
two clean guys together here:

and some background reading to go with that:

7-Eleven’s Eddy Merckx bikes
http://cycling-passion.com/2013/11/02/7-eleven-eddy-merckx-bikes/

btw, i didnt know that part from wheelmen. It sounds plausible.
edit: and please take note of Oldermanish' post re Testa, Heiden, Ochowicz.

bike manufacturer wants to sell more bikes to large american market......

 

[sniper]

agreed.

 

[inga thompson]

Sniper, I was alerted that you were chatting about me. Any questions? Inga

 

[sniper]

Re:

Sniper, I was alerted that you were chatting about me. Any questions? Inga

Hi Inga,
Great to have you chime in, much appreciated.

To the extent that 'chatting' carries any negative connotations, I'm not sure if it's the right choice of words here.
I've made a couple of references to your pieces from 2012 and 2014 (I think both were published on the Velonews website) and have great respect and appreciation for both these pieces.

As far as I can tell, you are one of the very few people with a history in (pro)cycling who's tried to go beyond the obligatory anti-doping PR talk and has tried to actually shed some light on what was going on behind the scene. The things you say in those two pieces strike me as very sincere. More to the point: it's the kind of sound I would expect to hear from someone who is genuinely antidoping. A sound I hear rarely.

Well, I would have several questions for you, but to start one more general question out of curiosity: at present, do you still have some kind of ties to (pro)cycling? Do you still follow it from up close? What's your take on the peloton of today?

When I first read your story about Eddie B. ca. a week ago, it happened to coincide with the news about British Cycling's Shane Sutton mobbing/ousting a female cyclist who one way or the other didn't meet his standards. Although the Sutton story isn't doping related, one thought that occurred to me is: Sutton and Eddie B.--- two of a kind. While that is probably an oversimplification, I'm curious if the Sutton story is something you can relate to from your experiences with Eddie? (Of course, you also noted that you hardly spoke to Eddie in person. But still, you seemed to be quite convinced that it was him who was pulling the strings in the background to get you to quit the team)

Again, much appreciate you chiming in.

(edit: For the record, I'm not the first to refer to your excellent interview from 2014. It's been posted up previously by some other posters. If you want to find those earlier instances, you can simply enter your name in the search box of the Clinic's start screen, and it will take you to those posts)

 

[Irondan]

Re:

Sniper, I was alerted that you were chatting about me. Any questions? Inga

Welcome to the forum Inga!

I hope you can fill in some blanks there might be in this thread during this era, feel free to chime in whenever you see fit.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

Sniper, I was alerted that you were chatting about me. Any questions? Inga

Holy moly! Enjoyed watching you ride, thanks for coming here and engaging us. Welcome Ms. Thompson

Look forward to hearing some great stories from you, should you be willing to share any.

 

[inga thompson]

I haven't read extensively thru the threads. While racing with 7-Eleven, it was so hard to not be suspicious of why is a Dr. traveling with the team. The Women's Team was most always not included in any training camps or get togethers unless it was the beginning of the year, meeting the 7-Eleven executives in Texas. I don't have a lot to add because of this dynamic. The only ones I feel comfortable speaking about are my own personal experiences, the rest, for me, is hearsay. I did get a big smile today, seeing Longo's husband is facing prison time for buying EPO. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jeannie-longos-husband-faces-prison-for-epo-purchases/ Saying something while I was racing would be viewed as 'sour grapes' on my part. Yet, the evidence of how she dominated us, specifically me, overnight, made it overwhelming 'proof' for me. I know the Longo thing is off track for this thread, but it is my area of experiences.

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

I haven't read extensively thru the threads. While racing with 7-Eleven, it was so hard to not be suspicious of why is a Dr. traveling with the team. The Women's Team was most always not included in any training camps or get togethers unless it was the beginning of the year, meeting the 7-Eleven executives in Texas. I don't have a lot to add because of this dynamic. The only ones I feel comfortable speaking about are my own personal experiences, the rest, for me, is hearsay. I did get a big smile today, seeing Longo's husband is facing prison time for buying EPO. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jeannie-longos-husband-faces-prison-for-epo-purchases/ Saying something while I was racing would be viewed as 'sour grapes' on my part. Yet, the evidence of how she dominated us, specifically me, overnight, made it overwhelming 'proof' for me. I know the Longo thing is off track for this thread, but it is my area of experiences.

I would also like to welcome Inga and I too remember you racing, always distinctive with the long braided ponytail, dominating the Nationals in Utah in 91 riding for Reno against the big US teams. Still have that edition of Winning magazine.

The only thing I would ask of Inga is that she answer questions in the public forum, not private messages. Certain posters here have a record of distorting and twisting information for their own purposes. I would like to see answers unfiltered so we can make up our own minds and ask follow up questions.

 

[inga thompson]

No one has asked me anything privately.

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

No one has asked me anything privately.

Inga, sorry, that was probably phrased incorrectly. It should probably read as lets keep any discussion in the public forum.

Easy question to start. What do you consider your greatest achievement in cycling.

And as this is the clinic.

Your career stradled the era from pre EPO to the EPO era. Did you personally notice a difference in cycling or what changes did you witness or hear about during that period?