Has the wind changed?

[thehog]

Not another thread I know but…

Noticing the statements that are coming out of Stapleton, Hincapie, Levi, and Vaughters collective mouths this morning is appears the new line is “you cannot judge what happened in the past on now” and “Lance Armstrong doesn’t define the sport today”.

It appears they all know what’s about to come this week. We are going to see detailed evidence if not more information on what happened at USPS and that the members of those teams were involved in. We’ll also get the details on Levi, Lim and Bruyneel.

It appears by complying it gets you off the hook in terms of a doping suspension or criminal punishment.

I have to say its all over for Armstrong and I think thats a good thing for the sport. We can now move on and get back to real cycling.

 

[Anonymous]

hog, I love ya man, but please quit prognosticating. You saying something is going to happen is the kiss of death to that particular event ever happening.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Isn't this the Mark McGwire defense? 'I'm not here to talk about the past'?

 

[Anonymous]

I mean, you are so bad at it, I almost want to see what happens if you say something happened in the past. I wonder if maybe BP would hire you to say there was a big fire on one of its rigs that caused an enormous oil leak in the Gulf. I hear they are willing to pay anyone to help the stop it. Maybe you can make it so it never happened. Worth a shot...

 

[Johnalex13]

where are you seeing there qoutes this morning?

 

[BikeCentric]

I actually am starting to think that Lance Armstrong will go down over this and that opinion is based primarily on the reports I've read that Novitzsky is leading a Federal investigation and Kristen Armstrong is cooperating. If those are both correct then I do think Feds questioning people will lead to people not wanting to lie to a Fed and the whole thing will blow open.

Regardless, unless this investigation really happens and unless Novitzsky takes it far enough to blow up the UCI then nothing will change. Yes it will be good in the long run to see the symbolic King of all that one can achieve through doping dethroned yet it will not make a difference if the systemic corruption of the UCI remains in place.

Heck, my mother, who knows nothing about cycling, called me up over the weekend and said "this McQuaid guy seems to be corrupt, why would he not just say "we'll look into Landis' claims," the fact that he attacks a whistleblower immediately is disturbing."

So as long as the UCI is transparently corrupt in the eyes of the public and nothing is done about it the sport of pro cycling as a whole will continue to lack credibility. Any person who has any basic knowledge of politics and governance will see that the UCI has a clear conflict of interest when it is in charge of both policing and promoting the sport at the same time.

 

[thehog]

where are you seeing there qoutes this morning?

“I’m all for the older generation racing and succeeding and passing the drug tests, but they don’t define the sport anymore. Lance Armstrong doesn’t define the sport anymore. There’s a new generation of riders and teams who operate under a whole new set of rules. I think the fans should stay tuned for that.”

“The sport of today is a completely different sport than it was five years ago, than it was 10 years ago, that I’m sure,” McQuaid said. “It’s unfortunate that Landis, a rider with some sort of an agenda, has chosen to try to diminish all the work we’ve been doing.”

“Whoever wants to talk about something eight years ago, fine, they can waste their time on that,” Hincapie said. “I want to talk about the future of the sport and the sacrifices we put into it.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/24/sports/cycling/24cycling.html?ref=sports

 

[thehog]

hog, I love ya man, but please quit prognosticating. You saying something is going to happen is the kiss of death to that particular event ever happening.

My understanding and things are changing by the minute. But there are two other emails circulating. These two emails contain information which whilst doesn’t contain direct evidence like a smoking gun but the detail is detailed enough to give the understanding that it cannot be made up or thats its the ranting of a crazed man.

I've also heard and again take it with a grain of salt that the authorities do not want to speak to Armstrong or Bruyneel and are interviewing all of those around them. Building the pressure from the outside. The other snippet I got was many don’t want this information released into the public domain and prefer to release it in their own way. Hence while you see public admissions of doping and compliance with doping officials but no actual detail. They will be absolved of any suspensions as the territory back then was that doping was the norm and things are much different now. Its everyman for himself. Each person involved is trying to save their own skin. Who has more to loose? A man whos wealth is $250million or a man who can’t afford his rent?

 

[Mr.38%]

GH: “I’m not the type of person that tries to bring harm on anybody,” he said. “I’ve led my life by trying to be a good person, by trying to be a good example, by trying to set an example.”

We should all keep this in mind, we are all just humans.

Building everything you are on lies, intrigues, intimidation, corruption and even more lies is a different story though.

 

[Tubeless]

The new messaging looks to be coordinated, and the people commenting may think it's a clever way not to deny but deflect. But it's missing the point why this thing won't go away for a while. Landis said part of his motivation to come forward now was the 8-year statue of limitations. So he has clearly gotten some advise on criminal prosecution matters. These commentators have not.

Stapleton, JV, Levi, Hincapie, Zabriskie are concerned about the cycling's future image. Any politician would say that unless you can come clean with your past, it will continue to haunt your future. This will be fun to watch. Drip, drip, drip torture experience for all involved.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

GH: “I’m not the type of person that tries to bring harm on anybody,” he said. “I’ve led my life by trying to be a good person, by trying to be a good example, by trying to set an example.”

Set what example? That by doing lots of drugs, you too can be a successful cyclist? That's the example?

George may be a nice guy and all, but cyclists are no role models.

 

[Berzin]

There is also another scenario that must be considered-that the people who are approached either do not cooperate, lie or leave out the more incriminating details just to go on with their lives so they won't have to be involved with such an investigation.

Armstrong prepares for the Tour and gets another top-three position.

Fat Pat McQuaid congratulates Armstrong and tells the world Lances' success goes to show what can be done when facing adversity.

The whole thing gets spun, Armstrong walks away again looking like a hero, his fanboys hold a ticker-tape parade for him and he retires with his reputation not one bit diminished.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

There is also another scenario that must be considered-that the people who are approached either do not cooperate, lie or leave out the more incriminating details just to go on with their lives so they won't have to be involved with such an investigation.

Armstrong prepares for the Tour and gets another top-three position.

Fat Pat McQuaid congratulates Armstrong and tells the world Lances' success goes to show what can be done when facing adversity.

The whole thing gets spun, Armstrong walks away again looking like a hero, his fanboys hold a ticker-tape parade for him and he retires with his reputation not one bit diminished.

That sounds like the worst-case (and most likely) scenario.

Add into it - McQuaid, decides to aid Armstrong by using the Biopassport to suspend a couple of riders who might pose a threat (and/or Vino gets bounced for doping a couple of days before the race leading to Astana and Dertie being kicked out of the race)

 

[Maxiton]

hog, I love ya man, but please quit prognosticating. You saying something is going to happen is the kiss of death to that particular event ever happening.

I mean, you are so bad at it, I almost want to see what happens if you say something happened in the past. I wonder if maybe BP would hire you to say there was a big fire on one of its rigs that caused an enormous oil leak in the Gulf. I hear they are willing to pay anyone to help the stop it. Maybe you can make it so it never happened. Worth a shot...

LOL!

GH: “I’m not the type of person that tries to bring harm on anybody,” he said. “I’ve led my life by trying to be a good person, by trying to be a good example, by trying to set an example.”

We should all keep this in mind, we are all just humans.

Building everything you are on lies, intrigues, intimidation, corruption and even more lies is a different story though.

When Hincapie led the Blue Train at the Tour in '06, he was just getting ready to launch his clothing line, and everyone expected him to dominate. Certainly performing as he had in previous years for Armstrong would have taken him a long way toward dominance. Instead, however, he faltered. Was that because he chose, for whatever reason, not to continue the Armstrong-style program?

 

[Maxiton]

There is also another scenario that must be considered-that the people who are approached either do not cooperate, lie or leave out the more incriminating details just to go on with their lives so they won't have to be involved with such an investigation.

Armstrong prepares for the Tour and gets another top-three position.

Fat Pat McQuaid congratulates Armstrong and tells the world Lances' success goes to show what can be done when facing adversity.

The whole thing gets spun, Armstrong walks away again looking like a hero, his fanboys hold a ticker-tape parade for him and he retires with his reputation not one bit diminished.

Sounds entirely plausible.

 

[Tubeless]

It's pretty clear that all these guys have dabbled into doping once or twice (or pick your number) in their careers. Some may be clean now and feel bitter that the past is being dug up - by no other than a doper who himself got caught. But this too misses the point.

The system is corrupt, and it's vulnerable to being exposed as such. All these guys keep saying that cycling is doing more than any other sport to clean itself of doping, but wonder how many would admit that cycling is one of the dirtiest sport when it comes to PED. This is simply a result of the amount of money involved AND the insane expectations on riders. Doing a TT a day after a 6.5 hour mountain stage? Attempt this clean and you may kill yourself.

 

[nvpacchi]

That sounds like the worst-case (and most likely) scenario.

Add into it - McQuaid, decides to aid Armstrong by using the Biopassport to suspend a couple of riders who might pose a threat (and/or Vino gets bounced for doping a couple of days before the race leading to Astana and Dertie being kicked out of the race)

I was actually thinking that same thing. Does McQuaid allow Armstrong and team to ride the Tour doped to the gills (because who would dare try doping after these alleged accusations??)

Hopefully people start wising up and talking before the tour begins.

 

[kurtinsc]

I have a question for those of you who may have better memory (or better yet, video) of some of Lance's tour wins then me...

How vital was George Hincapie in the mountains?

Did he hang on in the real high mountains into relatively small groups (25 or less)? Or did he do the Cancellera thing and power at the base of a climb then fall off and rest for the next day?

My only real memory of him in the mountains were on breakaways... either waiting up for a leader while on a break and helping them a bit or his one mountain win from a break (where he hung on a wheel for dear life until the very end).

He was definitely climbing better back then compared to where he is now... but at what level did he climb at during his peak? It's hard to tell from just results because postal/discovery guys tended to rest up once they dropped off from Lance to fight another day rather then hold on for a good result.

For example, he was 19 minutes back of the lead on Alpe d'Huez in 2003... but so was Floyd Landis. He was 31 minutes back in 2001. On Ventoux he was 21 minutes back in 2002. Le Grand Bornand in 2004 he was 20 minutes back.

Did he show the ability to hang on better then say... a Jens Voigt or Fabian Cancellera in the mountains even in his best years?

 

[BikeCentric]

Doing a TT a day after a 6.5 hour mountain stage? Attempt this clean and you may kill yourself.

No you just won't go as fast as you would doped up.

 

[Mr.38%]

Set what example? That by doing lots of drugs, you too can be a successful cyclist? That's the example?

George may be a nice guy and all, but cyclists are no role models.

Do you race? Do you do it for a living by any chance?

Have you personally been cheated by a doper or are you just posting ethical visions on the net?

If nothing applies to you then please just accept that professional sports is hell. It's getting worse the higher the level.

Many of my friends tried it, most failed, some made it pretty far. I have no clue if they are clean and I don't really care. I know they want to be clean, at least they wanted.

They are humans.

I don't know George but I am sure he'd prefer to ride clean. At least he never pretended to be a role model like Mr. Assstrong does.

 

[thehog]

Do you race? Do you do it for a living by any chance?

Have you personally been cheated by a doper or are you just posting ethical visions on the net?

If nothing applies to you then please just accept that professional sports is hell. It's getting worse the higher the level.

Many of my friends tried it, most failed, some made it pretty far. I have no clue if they are clean and I don't really care. I know they want to be clean, at least they wanted.

They are humans.

I don't know George but I am sure he'd prefer to ride clean. At least he never pretended to be a role model like Mr. Assstrong does.

You’re right. Whilst big George was pumping the plasma riding up Tour de France mountains all-day long at records speeds with no hands on handlebars whilst adjusting sunglasses and chatting to team-mates there were a lot of clean cyclists who were having their legs ripped off some losing their careers and barely making the 10th of what Hincapie did per year. All this krap about how these guys lived their lives fairly etc etc etc. is utter BS. When they were living their lives fairly they were also putting a lot of other cyclists out of job and causing them to be paid less than they deserved. I have no respect for Hincapie. He played the role of faithful lieutenant to Armstrong for one reason - It paid well. It paid much better than being clean and not being on USPS or at the pack of the peloton riding for a French team. He’s a cheat.

 

[Race Radio]

I have a question for those of you who may have better memory (or better yet, video) of some of Lance's tour wins then me...

How vital was George Hincapie in the mountains?

Did he hang on in the real high mountains into relatively small groups (25 or less)? Or did he do the Cancellera thing and power at the base of a climb then fall off and rest for the next day?

My only real memory of him in the mountains were on breakaways... either waiting up for a leader while on a break and helping them a bit or his one mountain win from a break (where he hung on a wheel for dear life until the very end).

He was definitely climbing better back then compared to where he is now... but at what level did he climb at during his peak? It's hard to tell from just results because postal/discovery guys tended to rest up once they dropped off from Lance to fight another day rather then hold on for a good result.

For example, he was 19 minutes back of the lead on Alpe d'Huez in 2003... but so was Floyd Landis. He was 31 minutes back in 2001. On Ventoux he was 21 minutes back in 2002. Le Grand Bornand in 2004 he was 20 minutes back.

Did he show the ability to hang on better then say... a Jens Voigt or Fabian Cancellera in the mountains even in his best years?

How did George do in the Mountains?

He won the hardest stage of the Tour in 2005

As for Alp d'huez. In 2003 he and Landis pulled at the front most of the stage then cruised up the climb chatting.

 

[Digger]

Do you race? Do you do it for a living by any chance?

Have you personally been cheated by a doper or are you just posting ethical visions on the net?

If nothing applies to you then please just accept that professional sports is hell. It's getting worse the higher the level.

Many of my friends tried it, most failed, some made it pretty far. I have no clue if they are clean and I don't really care. I know they want to be clean, at least they wanted.

They are humans.

I don't know George but I am sure he'd prefer to ride clean. At least he never pretended to be a role model like Mr. Assstrong does.

I am sure Bassons would take issue with your post.

 

[Mr.38%]

Juicing is just one factor of many. Do you think anyone is just better because he responds better to medical enhancements?

Bassons? What about Mottet? They chose the wrong profession, simple as that. Sad but true.

That's why I hope the title of the thread can be answered with "yes". I hope Landis finds plenty of combatants as well.

 

[theswordsman]

My understanding and things are changing by the minute. But there are two other emails circulating. These two emails contain information which whilst doesn’t contain direct evidence like a smoking gun but the detail is detailed enough to give the understanding that it cannot be made up or thats its the ranting of a crazed man.

I've also heard and again take it with a grain of salt that the authorities do not want to speak to Armstrong or Bruyneel and are interviewing all of those around them. Building the pressure from the outside. The other snippet I got was many don’t want this information released into the public domain and prefer to release it in their own way. Hence while you see public admissions of doping and compliance with doping officials but no actual detail. They will be absolved of any suspensions as the territory back then was that doping was the norm and things are much different now. Its everyman for himself. Each person involved is trying to save their own skin. Who has more to loose? A man whos wealth is $250million or a man who can’t afford his rent?

All of the guys trying to convince us to forget the past remind me of people who committed crimes, got away with it, and think that since they're living better now, they don't deserve punishment. We fans who've been watching for a while realize that if this gets swept away, five years from now they'll be telling us to forget 2010.

My personal hope is that the U.S. investigators work with French authorities and Interpol, who are already actively pursuing links to International drug rings. My dream is that at some point, they have enough evidence to retest samples year by year. I also hope that Morkeberg or someone else is close to a reliable test for own blood transfusions.

I'm also comfortable that the investigations and interrogations are taking place behind the scenes. If Armstrong's people don't have the information, they can't bully, threaten, discredit or counterattack.

I hope the pressure is enough to keep him and Bruyneel away from the Tour.