Has the wind changed?

[Anonymous]

I was not talking about racing. I'm talking about the human inside the racer.

well, I guess you're ****ed if you go against other guys doping...wow, you're an idiot via logical arguments...hey, when you're racing career goes nowhere, just tell yourself that it is all about human nature and genes...

 

[Anonymous]

Incest? What's next, Nazis? Religion?

you're the one talking about it being in our genes and just human nature via strongarm fella...

 

[Mr.38%]

well, I guess you're ****ed if you go against other guys doping...wow, you're an idiot via logical arguments...hey, when you're racing career goes nowhere, just tell yourself that it is all about human nature and genes...

I wouldn't have chosen to be professional cyclist. I knew what was going on when I was U17...

Thank's for the idiot, let's talk about morale and ethics.

 

[Anonymous]

well, it certainly wasnt going to be making logical arguments...so you might as well push the pedals...let's just hope you are not going up against a new strongarm...but at least you will have the platonic moral compass to understand why he beat you outta of a job...

 

[sandman]

Yes he did.

From a break.

Wheel sucking Oscar the WHOLE way.

Peirero is a solid climber... but he's rarely there himself when the pelaton gets down to 20 riders or so... and he clearly was better then Hincapie on the climb in that stage.

I tend to think of that stage as a lot closer to Gerrans and Haussler's GC mountain-stage wins. Great accomplishments, but hardly proof that the rider is a top level climber.

Dude, do you remember 2006?

I remember reading interviews w George where he was saying how he got a mental coach and is changing his approach and what is "possible".

Trust me when I tell u that George was convinced after that particular stage win in 2005 that somehow he will be able to do great in the GC at the 2006 TDF.

Once he realized it, he was bitterly disappointed.

 

[Mr.38%]

well, it certainly wasnt going to be making logical arguments...so you might as well push the pedals...let's just hope you are not going up against a new strongarm...but at least you will have the platonic moral compass to understand why he beat you outta of a job...

We are 100% d'accord regarding Armstrong, I'd like to see him hang this time.

 

[Anonymous]

We are 100% d'accord regarding Armstrong, I'd like to see him hang this time.

good to hear...we can talk about human nature and genes ect...no offence...but actually justice is a real living concept...

 

[Steampunk]

One of the things that hasn't been mentioned in these myriad Landis threads is what this means to pro cycling in general. If Armstrong goes down, you can bet he takes everyone and everything with him. There won't be a quiet mea culpa. It's one thing to implicate just about everyone in US cycling, but there will be a lot of finger pointing at European cyclists and teams, too. I would imagine that someone like Bjarne Riis is sweating at the moment without a sponsor lined up for Saxo. And what would this mean for sponsorships in general? Who on earth would pony up the kind of money necessary for a Pro Tour team? In short, pro cycling could be irreparably decimated.

I must admit, that's why I'm still inclined to think that this will peter out. Nobody, but nobody can afford to let Armstrong swing in the wind.

 

[Anonymous]

One of the things that hasn't been mentioned in these myriad Landis threads is what this means to pro cycling in general. If Armstrong goes down, you can bet he takes everyone and everything with him. There won't be a quiet mea culpa. It's one thing to implicate just about everyone in US cycling, but there will be a lot of finger pointing at European cyclists and teams, too. I would imagine that someone like Bjarne Riis is sweating at the moment without a sponsor lined up for Saxo. And what would this mean for sponsorships in general? Who on earth would pony up the kind of money necessary for a Pro Tour team? In short, pro cycling could be irreparably decimated.

I must admit, that's why I'm still inclined to think that this will peter out. Nobody, but nobody can afford to let Armstrong swing in the wind.

maybe...but armstrong wouldnt squeal...he would go down like the biggest victim since jesus...and to be honest, taking pro cycling down in that manner and cleaning house would be GREAT...whomever got caught up it...because it could not be much worse...ream it out and guess what? there are alot of younger guys waiting to come in and they will race and it might be alot more exciting....

 

[kurtinsc]

Remind me when Spartacus won a TdF mountain stage, outsprinting a future TdF champion.

Spartacus ever considered a team leader at the TdF? No? George was.

Hincapie went well above and beyond what a normal single-day stage racer could do unassisted by one of the most successful doping programmes in the cycling world.

Oh, and by the way, I hope you're not naive enough to think that Spartacus is doing this on Gatorade and Clif blocks.

Again... I believe EVERY rider is doped. I'm probably wrongly accusing a couple of guys with that assumption, but I'm betting I'll have a better batting average then if I believed every rider was clean.

I'm really looking for occasions where Hincapie was around in select groups helping Lance up a mountain. I know he won a mountain stage from a break, and I know he blew up the peloton a few times at the base of climbs, and I know he dropped back from breaks to help Lance up the road a few times... but in my (admittedly poor) memory, it was always other Postal/Discovery riders around with Lance when the group was winnowed down.

And yes... Pereiro did win the Tour. But while he was a very good climber... can we agree he wasn't elite?

And anyway, I think Oscar said it best after the race:

"I asked him [Hincapie] to work, as we had to collaborate to battle it out in a sprint - but he didn't. Sometimes it's not the strongest that wins."

He was strong enough to hang on Oscar's wheel and outsprint him. He didn't work the whole day... he was on the race leader's team and just hung on the back. Here are some snippets from CN's coverage of the stage:

"Down the wide open descent the now 10 front runners were still working hard, with Pereiro and the Rabobank riders driving the pace. Hincapie was just sitting on, acting as break police for his Discovery Channel leader, maillot jaune Armstrong."

"Hincapie looked good and was just marking everything, obviously under team orders not to work. There were now just six riders left up front: Pereiro, Boogerd, Hincapie, Caucchioli Brochard and Sevilla as the 7.5km climb at 7.9% grade commenced."

"Pereiro and Boogerd were doing the forcing up front, while Hincapie and Sevilla were sitting on."


While that showed George was a solid climber at that point... I'm not sure it showed he was particularly good. It's not like he was contributing to the work in the break and hung with Pereiro... he sat on all day and was able to go with a guy who was working hard all day long.


I guess my point is I never remembered thinking of Hincapie as a great climber... merely solid. That win led to him being considered a GC guy... but probably quite undeservedly so considering the circumstances.

I'm just trying to figure out what races (aside from that one) led people to think he was a mountain goat. Even with the dope... he just appeared average on the mountains to me.

Since the 2003 Alpe d'Huez was mentioned, I'm going to try to find some footage of that to see if he really did pull a big percentage of the way up the mountain as opposed to the early pull to decimate the group then release that I remember him doing in general terms.

 

[kurtinsc]

Dude, do you remember 2006?

I remember reading interviews w George where he was saying how he got a mental coach and is changing his approach and what is "possible".

Trust me when I tell u that George was convinced after that particular stage win in 2005 that somehow he will be able to do great in the GC at the 2006 TDF.

Once he realized it, he was bitterly disappointed.

Yes he was convinced.

I didn't say George wasn't delusional about that... I'm just trying to remember any results that suggested it would be a reality other then stage 15 from 2005.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Just got off the phone with my friend in Denmark, he and I worked on some Darfur stuff. He is a MD at a hospital. His brother worked for Riis off/on for a few seasons (2000-2002) but later left.

Word in the European cycling community, that he has contacts with, is that this is far more serious than the US media is letting on. UCI, IOC and a WADA lab will get popped. Also, LA is truly a cooked Christmas goose.

I am sure we will all be tuned in here to watch this thing burn like a tire yard. Black smoke and so hot that it can't be put out, just have to let it burn off.

 

[Mr.38%]

good to hear...we can talk about human nature and genes ect...no offence...but actually justice is a real living concept...

Your real living concept failed miserabely.

Time for something else, don't you think?

 

[Anonymous]

Your real living concept failed miserabely.

Time for something else, don't you think?

how is that Junior? That IS the point...to find your guy guilty...

 

[Anonymous]

Yes he did.

From a break.

Wheel sucking Oscar the WHOLE way.

Peirero is a solid climber... but he's rarely there himself when the pelaton gets down to 20 riders or so... and he clearly was better then Hincapie on the climb in that stage.

I tend to think of that stage as a lot closer to Gerrans and Haussler's GC mountain-stage wins. Great accomplishments, but hardly proof that the rider is a top level climber.

Get your head out of the freaking sand. Please.

 

[Anonymous]

wow...you fail on logical thought...ride your bike kid...

 

[Mr.38%]

how is that Junior? That IS the point...to find your guy guilty...

12 years too late.

 

[Anonymous]

12 years too late.

maybe...but still nice to see some justice and see the guy go down...go back and read your Plato would you dummy...

 

[Anonymous]

Something struck me. Why not go to hospital? and then I remembered Pantani. Did they not bust Pantani after he had a crash, went to hospital, they took a blood sample and then found that his blood was made up of all sorts of things it shouldn't have. So maybe the Uniballer doesn't want anyone taking any samples of his blood?

Johan Museeuw went after his crash in P-R. Somewhere I read an account of the hospital workers who treated him, and their characterization of his blood suggested they were shocked by what they saw. I wish I could find the article, but it has been years since I saw it.

 

[Anonymous]

All of this talk of morality is interesting, but you should read the comments under the most recent Toto cartoon for some really interesting comparisons. They revolve around Dante's Inferno, and comparisons of Armstrong to Christ. Here is just a sample:

"Regardless of the veracity of his claims, Floyd will be banished to the fourth round of the ninth circle of Hell for all eternity, alongside Judas, Brutus and Cassius.

This is the absolute bottom, reserved for the most base acts of betrayal against one's masters and benefactors. There is no worse place in all of the Inferno (or Creation, for that matter), for there is no worse sin than treachery against those with whom you once had a bond of love and trust.

Let the idoterati chirp away to their heart's content. In your corner you have Mr Schmalz - in my corner we have Dante Alighieri. I like those odds.

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"Thereby Cocytus wholly was congealed.
With six eyes did he weep, and down three chins
Trickled the tear-drops and the bloody drivel.

At every mouth he with his teeth was crunching
A sinner, in the manner of a brake,
So that he three of them tormented thus.

To him in front the biting was as naught
Unto the clawing, for sometimes the spine
Utterly stripped of all the skin remained.

'That soul up there which has the greatest pain,"
The Master said, "is Judas Iscariot."'

AND

"No, no - precisely wrong - you have it completely bassackwards. There is absolutely no difference! It is clearly more important to be loyal when it is difficult, when the object of your loyalty least deserves it. That's about the only time it counts.

A man *must* have a code. He must. And he must live by that code, unwavering and constant. Part of that code needs to be loyalty to those who have supported him - in lean times and fat times.

Mr Landis was happy to be loyal when it suited his own personal greed and ambitions. Now - a scant several years later, when it no longer suits him - his inconstancy and what he has done to his masters (managers, coaches) and benefactors (fans, FFF participants, teammates, support staff) is not excusable - regardless of what they have done. He could have easily atoned for his shortcomings without being disloyal. He has chosen not to. He was only loyal when expedient, a liar whenever necessary, and preyed unconscionably on his benefactors with guile to steal from them.

He is beneath f-cking contempt.

Be careful who you enlist as an oarsman in your quest for the white whale, Cap't.

Pretty freaking awesome take on it, don't you think? I mean, that is a special kind of crazy.

 

[BikeCentric]

All of this talk of morality is interesting, but you should read the comments under the most recent Toto cartoon for some really interesting comparisons. They revolve around Dante's Inferno, and comparisons of Armstrong to Christ. Here is just a sample:



AND



Pretty freaking awesome take on it, don't you think? I mean, that is a special kind of crazy.

I think that was posted by Tony Soprano or Michael Corleone.

 

[thehog]

Just got off the phone with my friend in Denmark, he and I worked on some Darfur stuff. He is a MD at a hospital. His brother worked for Riis off/on for a few seasons (2000-2002) but later left.

Word in the European cycling community, that he has contacts with, is that this is far more serious than the US media is letting on. UCI, IOC and a WADA lab will get popped. Also, LA is truly a cooked Christmas goose.

I am sure we will all be tuned in here to watch this thing burn like a tire yard. Black smoke and so hot that it can't be put out, just have to let it burn off.

Thanks for the update.

US cycling media have gone into hibernation on the issue. They're not running any more stories on loopy Landis. They know what’s coming

 

[thehog]

Thanks for the update.

US cycling media have gone into hibernation on the issue. They're not running any more stories on loopy Landis. They know what’s coming

In saying that. The same said media will pay Lance 10million for his "tell all" story of "I doped, I was wrong".

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

In saying that. The same said media will pay Lance 10million for his "tell all" story of "I doped, I was wrong".

Absolutely. If prostitution were truly illegal, the first to go would be the politicians and second would be the majority of the journalists.

American media is truly garbage, with a few diamonds among the sea of coal.

 

[thehog]

Absolutely. If prostitution were truly illegal, the first to go would be the politicians and second would be the majority of the journalists.

American media is truly garbage, with a few diamonds among the sea of coal.

And this why Murdoch hates the Internet. He can't control it. In addition many people can do their own research. Without the internet Armstrong wouldn't be sinking as he is now. Armstrong is dying here and it’s not just cyclingnews forums that are bringing him down. I’ve noticed most comments on websites no he doped. Whether they give a *** or not is another thing.