Has the wind changed?

[carl spackler]

They are all showing a united front against Landis. This is bad news for those that believed that at least some would embrace Landis and turn on Armstrong. So far only Greg Lemond and David Walsh have welcome what Landis has done - the usual suspects.

I go back and forth, but if you think about it, what are they supposed to do? Come out and say "oh yeah, I cheated, Floyd's totally right, we're all cheaters. Its part of the sport, and Lance is to be admired, after all he's the biggest baddest, and best cheater of us all." Like many have said, at least they're not attacking Floyd for lying, just dredging up the past. Getting back to the OP's original point.

They have to protect their phoney baloney jobs after all. Zabriskie just bought that house in Malibu, right? And Hincapie has his hands in a bunch of things.

 

[Terminal Cyclist]

I go back and forth, but if you think about it, what are they supposed to do? Come out and say "oh yeah, I cheated, Floyd's totally right, we're all cheaters. Its part of the sport, and Lance is to be admired, after all he's the biggest baddest, and best cheater of us all." Like many have said, at least they're not attacking Floyd for lying, just dredging up the past. Getting back to the OP's original point.

They have to protect their phoney baloney jobs after all. Zabriskie just bought that house in Malibu, right? And Hincapie has his hands in a bunch of things.

Did you expect anger from the cleaner teams like Garmin and Columbia? There seems to be no appetite for this across the board. They think it will do more harm than good for today's clean riders.

 

[santacruz]

If he'd just admitted to his own doping he would have no supporters at all.

It's a little bit late to come clean and still hold up Omerta isn't it? He's been covering himself and his fellow dopers until now. What would be the point in only himself coming clean?

I don't think there's any doubt he's done it to make himself look better.

I thought he looked pretty good when he was vehemently denying charges, just like Lance, creating a mass of people who believed in him and loved him for being the victim of a french conspiracy etc.

He doesn't really care about looking better imo, because now he only looks better to the other half who thought he was a doper all along, but now the half who believed his lies probably hate his guts. He just switched one group of friends for a different group.

They think it will do more harm than good for today's clean riders.

Maybe they don't know better?? Like Adam Myerson said in his blog, we have to burn this whole thing down and then rebuild it.. you can't rebuild around a rotten core of ex dopers running the shots, and look at the damned corrupt UCI.

 

[Roadent]

Just got off the phone with my friend in Denmark, he and I worked on some Darfur stuff. He is a MD at a hospital. His brother worked for Riis off/on for a few seasons (2000-2002) but later left.

Word in the European cycling community, that he has contacts with, is that this is far more serious than the US media is letting on. UCI, IOC and a WADA lab will get popped. Also, LA is truly a cooked Christmas goose.

I am sure we will all be tuned in here to watch this thing burn like a tire yard. Black smoke and so hot that it can't be put out, just have to let it burn off.

Interesting - sounds very plausible: very difficult to keep the genie in the bottle when extra-cycling authorities get their teeth into it.

 

[Cal_Joe]

I find the correlation between those repeating/defending/agreeing with the talking points of the accused and low post count very interesting.

I think some hard news could change the post count. There does not appear to be any in this thread at this time.

 

[red_flanders]

Where is the talking point?

The cleaner teams and riders genuinely seem to believe the sport have moved on and a 'witch hunt' would be counterproductive and ruin the good work that has been done.

They are all showing a united front against Landis. This is bad news for those that believed that at least some would embrace Landis and turn on Armstrong. So far only Greg Lemond and David Walsh have welcome what Landis has done - the usual suspects.

There you go.

 

[carl spackler]

Dave Z

For me the most interesting case has got to be Dave Z. Hasn't said anything yet as far as I could tell. On the loyalty issue its got to be tough for him, if they truly were and still are best buddies. Does anyone remember the issue of "Bicycling" where they ripped on Armstrong together and implied all kinds of weird things.

 

[carl spackler]

Did you expect anger from the cleaner teams like Garmin and Columbia? There seems to be no appetite for this across the board. They think it will do more harm than good for today's clean riders.

Deadlift anyone?

 

[kurtinsc]

Get your head out of the freaking sand. Please.

How so?

I know he doped. I think they all doped.

I just don't think he was that good a climber while doped, any more then Xabier Zandio or Eddy Mazzoleni (who went with Pereiro the following day in the Pau mountain stage) were.

 

[kurtinsc]

I recently posted this link. Hard to believe GH rode and went on to win this particular stage...you decide.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/tour05/?id=stages/tour0515

NW

He won it from a break.

A break in which he never went to the front.


I know Hincapie doped. I just don't think he was all that great a climber... even with the dope. Perhaps it's a perception thing on my part.

I don't think Tony Martin is all that great a climber either... but give him a big chunk of time at the bottom of Ventoux and he can finish second on a big mountain stage. If he had wheel sucked all day like Hincapie did to Periero... well Martin might have been able to take Garate at the summit.

 

[kurtinsc]

It's a little bit late to come clean and still hold up Omerta isn't it? He's been covering himself and his fellow dopers until now. What would be the point in only himself coming clean?



I thought he looked pretty good when he was vehemently denying charges, just like Lance, creating a mass of people who believed in him and loved him for being the victim of a french conspiracy etc.

He doesn't really care about looking better imo, because now he only looks better to the other half who thought he was a doper all along, but now the half who believed his lies probably hate his guts. He just switched one group of friends for a different group.


Maybe they don't know better?? Like Adam Myerson said in his blog, we have to burn this whole thing down and then rebuild it.. you can't rebuild around a rotten core of ex dopers running the shots, and look at the damned corrupt UCI.

Who's going to run it then?

No offense... but I don't trust anyone who's ridden a bike in a pro race or had anything to do with a top level professional cycling team in the last 30 years to be clean of the doping taint... and honestly that may be even to light in terms of laying the blame.

Are we willing to say that anyone that's finished in the top 20 in any pro-tour level race in the last 30 years is gone for life, and anyone who was a DS or team manager for a team that's had a rider do that is gone as well?

Because that's probably what it's going to take to make sure the thing is completely torn down and all the dopers are gone.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

They are all showing a united front against Landis. This is bad news for those that believed that at least some would embrace Landis and turn on Armstrong. So far only Greg Lemond and David Walsh have welcome what Landis has done - the usual suspects.

Wishful thinking.

I'm going to go on a limb and say Terminal Cyclist is another incarnation of the well-known troll on this board. World champ dingleberry picker as well.

 

[Parrot23]

I've also heard and again take it with a grain of salt that the authorities do not want to speak to Armstrong or Bruyneel and are interviewing all of those around them. Building the pressure from the outside.

If true, that would be crucial to catching the lies and laying charges of perjury at the the "centre". Bruyneel, etc., and the Armstrong legal team, have always so "hogtied" (excuse the pun here in your case) the team and former team members that no one can say anything.

The Feds should have the muscle to be able to reverse that with the prospect of perjury. The Feds ain't the patsies at UCI.

 

[Parrot23]

I think the Tiger Woods episode laid the groundwork for what's coming to Armstrong. The media smells blood in the water, and it's full of packed red cells.

The crucial difference is that Tiger's moral failings (which really aren't any of our business, though the sponsors' I suppose) had almost nothing to do with golf results whereas in cycling's case it's central to winning. No cheating in Tiger's case; just cheatin his wife.

The difficulty for Lance is his business empire, and the reaction of sponsors and contributors if this breaks. The corruption of using medication to cheat at sport (epo as a post-cancer drug) by someone who was so sick is problematic, esp. as EPO was in common with both his treatment and putative cheating.

 

[polpolpol]

Who's going to run it then?

No offense... but I don't trust anyone who's ridden a bike in a pro race or had anything to do with a top level professional cycling team in the last 30 years to be clean of the doping taint... and honestly that may be even to light in terms of laying the blame.

Are we willing to say that anyone that's finished in the top 20 in any pro-tour level race in the last 30 years is gone for life, and anyone who was a DS or team manager for a team that's had a rider do that is gone as well?

Because that's probably what it's going to take to make sure the thing is completely torn down and all the dopers are gone.

The problem isn't to find one (or several) Jesus figures who can be cleaner than clean and set individual examples, it is that the institutional structure of cycling is corrupt and is corrupting. And to sort that, all you need is legislation and a couple of appointments (who don't even need to be ex-cycling, merely decent people)

Well you only need one person to top the UCI. So long as they don't sink to total institutional corruption, it will be better than now.

A fair UCI which administers flat testing coupled with the bio-passport scheme would prevent any sharp changes in career trajectory (performances explicable only in terms of dope).

So long as the bio passport works, teams who ignore warnings based on bio-passport irregularities repeatedly can be fined – removing any DS motivation to keep dopers.

Once a sufficient number of riders are outed in the current scandal, offer some amnesty for any confessions of doping over the last 20 years – shatter any misconceptions about 'a few bad eggs'.

So no doping, no omerta, all done.

 

[Parrot23]

Yes, but even more, one way to start to break omerta is to give automatic amnesty to those who rat out others, but esp. ratting out the suppliers, facilitators. Blanket amnesty for rats, IF the evidence they provide leads to convictions or is considered valuable. Just a huge type of plea bargain.

Blanket amnesty for rats will start to change the structure of incentives/omerta that is corrupting the peloton.

Edit (added cross post): a team doctor faced with permanent or a 10-year revocation of his medical licence will make a good candidate to "rat" out the whole business. The FDA and medical authorities should force them to face the complete loss of their livelihood, but grant the carrot of complete amnesty if they talk and testify in court. Let them face the music. Bet you will find some who will sing like canaries.

 

[BikeCentric]

Wishful thinking.

I'm going to go on a limb and say Terminal Cyclist is another incarnation of the well-known troll on this board. World champ dingleberry picker as well.

You're right, it is BPC/Arbiter. I recognize his writing style immediately.

 

[kurtinsc]

The problem isn't to find one (or several) Jesus figures who can be cleaner than clean and set individual examples, it is that the institutional structure of cycling is corrupt and is corrupting. And to sort that, all you need is legislation and a couple of appointments (who don't even need to be ex-cycling, merely decent people)

Well you only need one person to top the UCI. So long as they don't sink to total institutional corruption, it will be better than now.

A fair UCI which administers flat testing coupled with the bio-passport scheme would prevent any sharp changes in career trajectory (performances explicable only in terms of dope).

So long as the bio passport works, teams who ignore warnings based on bio-passport irregularities repeatedly can be fined – removing any DS motivation to keep dopers.

Once a sufficient number of riders are outed in the current scandal, offer some amnesty for any confessions of doping over the last 20 years – shatter any misconceptions about 'a few bad eggs'.

So no doping, no omerta, all done.

That doesn't seem like tearing it down and starting over.

Rather it seems like putting in a new head guy and making sure current rules are enforced with maybe one or two new rules.

It also seems a bit regionally unfair to limit outing riders in just the current scandal. Landis is primarily naming people from his past teams... which tended to have a high US representation. Using that but not going back and say... busting the Ferrari clients or Puerto guys just as harshly seems a bit targeted.

I won't lie... I like riders from the US enough that I'd be a little irked if the end result was Zabriskie and Hincapie hammered while Valverde and Contador continue to ride.

 

[polpolpol]

It also seems a bit regionally unfair to limit outing riders in just the current scandal. Landis is primarily naming people from his past teams... which tended to have a high US representation. Using that but not going back and say... busting the Ferrari clients or Puerto guys just as harshly seems a bit targeted.

I won't lie... I like riders from the US enough that I'd be a little irked if the end result was Zabriskie and Hincapie hammered while Valverde and Contador continue to ride.

So many riders to bust though, it can't be a good investment for national police or doping councils (essentially state funded) to be spending years proving if the guy who finished 44th in Le Samyn in 2006 was cheating or not. Instead you need to create enough of a fear factor with the current investigation to show that people will be busted if they try to filibuster, and then offer an amnesty for all other teams – not necessarily no punishment, maybe reduced sentences etc, certainly not blanket legal immunity – to get a mass “we all did it”. If everyone confesses together, the myth can be shattered without picking out individuals here and there. Breaking the illusion that doping is in specific cases rather than generally is one of the steps towards a new cycling. If anyone chooses not to confess, they go to the top of the list for future resources in doping investigations. Remember, if the dominoes start to fall, there will be enough cross-contagion from riders moving between teams to open up the investigation all over cycling, not just US Postal.

 

[Martin318is]

The crucial difference is that Tiger's moral failings (which really aren't any of our business, though the sponsors' I suppose) had almost nothing to do with golf results whereas in cycling's case it's central to winning. No cheating in Tiger's case; just cheatin his wife.

Actually there are two key differences:
1) Reputation ruining behaviour that non-the-less had zero positive impact on sporting performance (in fact, theoretically negative if you think about it)

2) I don't think there is any suggestion that anything approaching a majority of other professional golfers are ALSO engaging in multiple ilicit affairs whilst on tour....

So in essence, Tiger did something that didn't help his performance and he was probably the only one whilst Armstrong did a huge amount to improve his performance but he was one of the many....

So logically, given the reporting of Tiger, the media should wipe the floor with Lance!

 

[kurtinsc]

So many riders to bust though, it can't be a good investment for national police or doping councils (essentially state funded) to be spending years proving if the guy who finished 44th in Le Samyn in 2006 was cheating or not. Instead you need to create enough of a fear factor with the current investigation to show that people will be busted if they try to filibuster, and then offer an amnesty for all other teams – not necessarily no punishment, maybe reduced sentences etc, certainly not blanket legal immunity – to get a mass “we all did it”. If everyone confesses together, the myth can be shattered without picking out individuals here and there. Breaking the illusion that doping is in specific cases rather than generally is one of the steps towards a new cycling. If anyone chooses not to confess, they go to the top of the list for future resources in doping investigations. Remember, if the dominoes start to fall, there will be enough cross-contagion from riders moving between teams to open up the investigation all over cycling, not just US Postal.

I say just kick everyone out who's ever ridden on a team with a doper, been coached by a doper, been treated by a doping doctor, been DS'd by a doper, been on a team managed by a doper.

All or nothing... kick them all out, or give them all amnesty and start over with tougher rules.

 

[polpolpol]

I say just kick everyone out who's ever ridden on a team with a doper, been coached by a doper, been treated by a doping doctor, been DS'd by a doper, been on a team managed by a doper.

All or nothing... kick them all out, or give them all amnesty and start over with tougher rules.

Yeah, I agree, in an ideal world everyone should get charged for exactly what they did, and pay the price. But that's not going to happen, thousands of separate investigations and trials. Amnesty is a compromise, but it would make things a lot better than they are right now. But the main need is to put a governance-testing structure in place that operates without corruption or bias. Those practical steps go further in creating a clean system than re-narrating the past would (though that would obviously help a lot too).

 

[kurtinsc]

Yeah, I agree, in an ideal world everyone should get charged for exactly what they did, and pay the price. But that's not going to happen, thousands of separate investigations and trials. Amnesty is a compromise, but it would make things a lot better than they are right now. But the main need is to put a governance-testing structure in place that operates without corruption or bias. Those practical steps go further in creating a clean system than re-narrating the past would (though that would obviously help a lot too).

There is always going to be bias.

I say no greivance system. It's the cyclists job to make sure they don't fail a test.

If they do, they get banned for life, their team gets banned and all the doctors/riders/DS's/managers for the team get banned. (the other bans don't need to be lifelong I suppose).

Teams will start being a lot stricter on their own testing if their butts are on the line. If you punish the team... HARSHLY as opposed to just the rider, the teams will make sure they don't have any dopers.

 

[Polish]

Actually there are two key differences:
1) Reputation ruining behaviour that non-the-less had zero positive impact on sporting performance (in fact, theoretically negative if you think about it)

2) I don't think there is any suggestion that anything approaching a majority of other professional golfers are ALSO engaging in multiple ilicit affairs whilst on tour....

So in essence, Tiger did something that didn't help his performance and he was probably the only one whilst Armstrong did a huge amount to improve his performance but he was one of the many....

So logically, given the reporting of Tiger, the media should wipe the floor with Lance!

Cheating on your wife is FAR worse than cheating in the TdF.
And Lance did not hide his doping from his wife.
.
.
.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Cheating on your wife is FAR worse than cheating in the TdF.
And Lance did not hide his doping from his wife.
.
.
.

Everyone knows the rumors that Lance cheated on Kristin like crazy. So, what's your point? That he shared his doping habits with her? She apparently shared him with a bunch of other women.